Buckling Spring Mystery - Not the Click AGAIN!

[timw4mail]

adds to the mystique of the bs switch. Its kind of nice that such perfection is the result of such fine balance of chaotic and unstable forces. Its like its all held together with a wizard spell.

Or maybe it's just really difficult to have consistent springs, plastics, and keycaps?

[CX23882]

Unicomp says they will repair any IBM keyboard for a flat fee of something like $30 or $35, I don't remember exactly.

Even this?
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=106113&postcount=28

[rdjack21]

Even this?
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=106113&postcount=28

LOL I guess he could put all the parts in a box and send it to them.

UNICOMP Receiving department:
What the @#% is this. Does this ripster person really think we are going to fix this! Oh well you know the policy we fix them all send it over to the repair techs.

UNICOMP Repair techs:
What the #$%# is this box of crap. Oh I see this ripster person at least left the label so we know what it should be. What the #$#% is the glob of plastic for?  Heck if they have the Balls to send this in just send them a new one and be done with it. Hey whats this note say http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=108014 (tech gets on computer and enters the url). What the heck are these guys doing Oh my god look what he did to our board. Buy hey kinda of cool but hey we know all this stuff already. They don't deserve a new board where is that reject board we had laying around yesterday send him that one.

[timw4mail]

LOL I guess he could put all the parts in a box and send it to them.

UNICOMP Receiving department:
What the @#% is this. Does this ripster person really think we are going to fix this! Oh well you know the policy we fix them all send it over to the repair techs.

UNICOMP Repair techs:
What the #$%# is this box of crap. Oh I see this ripster person at least left the label so we know what it should be. What the #$#% is the glob of plastic for?  Heck if they have the Balls to send this in just send them a new one and be done with it. Hey whats this note say http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=108014 (tech gets on computer and enters the url). What the heck are these guys doing Oh my god look what he did to our board. Buy hey kinda of cool but hey we know all this stuff already. They don't deserve a new board where is that reject board we had laying around yesterday send him that one.

Repair technetions must have some amusing days.

[lowpoly]

wow, consensus! does that mean the mystery is solved? all three components (spring, hammer, barrel) probably contribute some amount to produce the final click?

I mean, if we have consensus this should be a sticky thread. Or atleast linked in the ibm wiki.

the forum has been wrestling with this mystery without consensus for a loooong time.

Having the separate A01 switches to play with, I still think it's the hammer, not the spring. Why should the spring click on its own? Ping on the way back maybe, that sounds like a fast vibration. But click? No way. Something hitting something else OTOH, like the hammer... That's why the open key is louder.

Have to make a video, maybe tomorrow.

[wellington1869]

Has all the makings of a grand Doctoral Thesis.

seriously.

[ch_123]

Christ, if this 'Cult of the Hammer' continues, I'm going to have to open up my Model F again... Knew I should have made videos the last time 8-)

[wellington1869]

For yuks I'm going to PlastiDip a spring/hammer and see what happens

that would be awesome.
tho my guess is it wont buckle at all. no buckle, no fun.

or, paint plastidip on the barrel wall?

[timw4mail]

Christ, if this 'Cult of the Hammer' continues, I'm going to have to open up my Model F again... Knew I should have made videos the last time 8-)

You make it sound like that was a chore :lol:

[ch_123]

Believe me, it loses it's charm after you've done it for the third or fourth time.

[JBert]

For yuks I'm going to PlastiDip a spring/hammer and see what happens

If you do go ahead, try to vary the amount of the stuff.
Maybe it is already enough to apply two thin strips to dampen the spring, whereas a full coat could make it stop buckling.

[lowpoly]

5576-A01 Switch Sound

How do I embed a youtube video here?

Oh, and the lens cover is sliding on the desk. And the fan added some wind noise. :frown: I hope you don't mind.

[timw4mail]

5576-A01 Switch Sound

How do I embed a youtube video here?

Oh, and the lens cover is sliding on the desk. And the fan added some wind noise. :frown: I hope you don't mind.

Buckling spring switches? Where in the world do you get those?

[wellington1869]

The Cult of The Hammer strikes again!  Those are the IBM Japanese switches - they come individually.

Nice video.  Boy that is one pingy keyboard though.  It sounds like the spring sproing resonates with the metal plate.

I'll post PlastiDip results in a sec after taking some pics.

in lowpo's video, its hard to say if its quieter because "hammer isnt hitting anything" or if its quieter because when held in the air between fingers there's no resonance.

[wellington1869]

I think it's time to grab a hammer and start banging heads.

So, you and CH are arguing the hammer makes no sound??

well, i'm arguing that all three contribute (so i'm arguing that hammer sound would be small, not the "main" sound). At this point I'm not sure that there is a "main" sound.  Or, if there is, I'd argue its the "spring itself" that is the "loudest contributor" of sound.

But I can accept that hammer and barrel wall "contribute" some (small?) amount.

So I guess I'm saying the click is more of an "orchestra".  It has three components to it, but is perceived by us as a single click.

[wellington1869]

I suppose another way to solve this would be to remove the hammer altogether on a switch, reinsert the switch into the board, and press it?

[wellington1869]

btw I say "spring itself is loudest" not because I know how the spring works (a perennial mystery) but rather by deduction, having eliminated the other sources, there's nothing else left.

anyway, so i'm willing to cover my butt and say all three contribute and the result is an orchestra and not one main single click.

[timw4mail]

So, that's like how your three posts were about the same point?

[wellington1869]

So, that's like how your three posts were about the same point?

exactly. So now if all three notions had occured in the same moment, then it would be like the click, where all three sounds happen at the same time. :-D

hmmm, this is kind of a holy trinity theory, 3-aspects-in-1, wouldnt you say, tim? :-D

[wellington1869]

After following the "Plastidip your Keys thread" I remembered I had an unopened can of the stuff I was going to use for Birth Control

sheer genius! :-)  A little "dip" before the fun starts and you're all set :-)

But the can wasn't long enough.

ahahahahahahaha

Unfortunately, it doesn't buckle like Welly anticipated

well, any buckling spring will tell you, humping the keyboard is a lot more fun without the sheath.

[o2dazone]

That poor Boscom
is there anything it hasnt gone through?

[ch_123]

So, you and CH are arguing the hammer makes no sound??

Saying that it makes no sound is slightly misleading. It may make some, but it's largely irrelevant and doesn't change the overall type of sound that the BS mechanism makes.

[lowpoly]

in lowpo's video, its hard to say if its quieter because "hammer isnt hitting anything" or if its quieter because when held in the air between fingers there's no resonance.

There are one or two clicks in the video where I let the hammer click freely against its end of movement point. That's also considerably louder than when the hammer is dampened by the finger.

But, having done some more tests, I think my hammer theory doesn't hold. Main reason: the click on the way up is a lot louder with the switch in the board than with the switch alone. And if I apply dampening then the ratio between the up and down sound is always the same: in the air (quiet), on the desk (not as quiet) and in the board (loud).

I'm with the combined sound folks now, I guess. Still, the hammer can provide a lot of noise depending on the situation (density of rubber mat, membrane thickness, travel).

The board adds A LOT of resonance, at least with the A01. There's probably little you can do about this.

Ripster, maybe you can remove the sloped part in one of your stems on your test setup?

[wellington1869]

my real interest is in getting the key force down

mine too.  Sound level can be handled pretty well with silicon grease anyway.

Re: resistance level, I still think there should be an off-the-shelf spring replacement out there. I nominate the boscom for further experimentation there (since I have neither the tools nor the spare boards!).

btw, dry silicon spray on the stem (to my mind anyway) further reduced resistance by a few grams at least. I dont have any data to back this up, but it sure felt that way to my fingers.

[lowpoly]

I did. That whole sloped thing was removed - first key in sound sample.

But wasn't that the loudest one? I give up here.

[ch_123]

I think someone needs to play around with a Model F now.  Would a Bigfoot Model F hammer fit in a Model M? - lots of room in the black plastic holders.

The idea that someone would do what you did to that Boscom to a Model F is somewhat horrifying. Can it be at least be done to one of those Model Cs that nobody loves? =P

[wellington1869]

The idea that someone would do what you did to that Boscom to a Model F is somewhat horrifying.

i agree. I'd even wince if someone did it to an M unless the M was not functional or something.  Its a bit like killing baby seals, isnt it?

I think someone would have to have one of the 'fringe' bs boards to have the heart to do it. Or a dead one.

I'd experiment with off-the-shelf springs but I'd have to first acquire a "lab rat" bs board. And a band saw.

[wellington1869]

Playing with springs is just a variation of the greased method - messes up the key feel.

btw, just for the record, putting a little bit of grease on the springs doesnt mess noticeably with key feel, and does reduce volume quite a bit.  The key feel is only lost if you absolutely saturate the spring (which results in mushy and absolutely quiet keys, which are no fun at all - you may as well buy a $10 dell rubber dome at that point).

but you can modulate both sound and feel with the amount of grease you apply. Apply just a little bit and the results are quite good.

[ch_123]

I'd recommend these as a suitable sacrifice. Probably as cheap as you're going to find any Model F style board these days. You could probably get it for like $20-25 with an offer, they've been around for a while and they have made no sale.

Here's one that Sandy dissected link

[timw4mail]

I'd recommend these as a suitable sacrifice. Probably as cheap as you're going to find any Model F style board these days. You could probably get it for like $20-25 with an offer, they've been around for a while and they have made no sale.

Here's one that Sandy dissected link[/URL.

Sounds good to me. We need the few AT Model F's in existence for typing.

[ch_123]

I bet you anything that it's going to be too small to make the contacts work.

[JBert]

I dipped a spring in [PlastiDip].  Note on the hammer you can see the number 253.  I thought it may be a datecode until I saw one labeled K1.  Another mystery to file along with the PLT number.

Show Image

My springy has been - uh - sheathed.  The Catholic Church does not approve of this mod BTW.  Unfortunately, it doesn't buckle like Welly anticipated.

I'm wondering - would it keep functioning if you only coated 3mm of spring, just above the point where the spring and the hammer meet as described in the AT&T "silenced buckling spring" patent? It might be an easier alternative compared to inserting urethane foam cylinders into each spring.

[msiegel]

that's a very interesting idea

also, i suspect the small numbers on injection molded parts are used to track down manufacturing defects.

e.g., maybe 50 parts are molded in one shot, and the one in the top left corner is numbered A1... so if a bunch of A1s test bad, you know the top left corner of the mold has a problem.

[wellington1869]

ya, that is an interesting idea. you could plastidip just a couple of mm's on either end of the spring.