Shades of Red

[fartq]

ok, look, against my better judgement, i'm going to post one last time here. again, this is my personal opinion and does not reflect that of this website or management except _exactly_ where noted.

first off, i'm getting a better idea of the conversation that you had with mel. you said "i didn't order base sets with red modifiers, i ordered base sets with grey modifiers." "oh well crap, looks like you're right, that sucks. well what do you want to do" "well, i don't have enough cash to buy these error sets from you guys so..." "well, i can give them to you on short-term financing if you think you can move them, and if you can recover the entire cost for me, that would be fine with me" "ok, but i'm not sure how many i can move" "well... let me run this by management and why don't you ask around and see how many you can move"

then you come here and post about how SP's made a huge mistake and mel could possibly be fired you want to sell as many of these as possible so she doesn't get fired. then you say "i don't know exactly how many i need to sell or at what price i need to sell them to help her but if i don't sell these SP's going to have to take a huge loss and mel could get fired"

here's what i would have said instead. "look dudes, SP's made a huge mistake again and i don't have enough money to buy the error keys from them, even though they look great. mel's offered me a short-term financing deal but we haven't worked out terms yet. if anyone has a chunk of cash and wants to either move these or help me move them, let me know. otherwise, i'll get back to you guys when i know the terms."

notice that the first is an appeal to emotion that's incredibly opaque on what the actual state of the transaction is, while the second is a completely transparent accounting of events and prognosis. notice that even though they both ask for help from the community, the second does so in a perfectly transparent way, while the first does not. now, i'm going to keep saying this, but speaking personally, i've seen you do two of these set gbs and both times you've come back to the community with an emotion filled appeal for more money in some way. the first time, you failed to account for sorting costs, "but hey you guys i negotiated mel down to a price i can pay out of pocket, but now i have no margin and this suckssss so please chip in if you can" (note that, if anything, that got mel into more trouble than her taking back these error keys will get her into).

also notice that every time you're criticized you come back with a martyr defense. "oh you guys just don't like me." no, i don't like the fact that you've become increasingly opaque in your dealings, are constantly appealing to emotion, and are consistently toeing the line between proxy buying and retailing despite calling yourself "the group buy guy".

you should get a vendor subforum

Yes I make moneys off of these group buys, it pays my rent. It buys me a few keysets or keyboards here and there, but it doesn't make me afford a new car or anything like that.

and that is why.

if you want to make money off the community, take the risk yourself and invest in the product.

boilermaker did it. keyboard story did it.

Because buying 1500 blank PBT keys from SP to ship to Imsto before even putting up an order thread isn't risky at all? Because that's not what I'm doing or anything... Or what about how I bought $1200 worth of keysets for people who hadn't paid their invoices, (most of which never did,) just to get the group buy in on time. Or how I'm trying to produce a Starcraft 2 themed dyesub set that includes race (and maybe Blizzard) logos sourced from China in advance and dyesubbed spell keys that cost me hundreds to have multiple proofs run so that they actually look good when I go to have them run. Unfortunately due to cost increases its pretty unlikely its even going to work because even at the 100 tier price the base TKL keysets are $100 not even including the spell keys. So I'll probably be out hundreds on a failed group buy that gets no orders. But hey, that's not what I'm working on at all over here... or what I've been spending practically my entire summer on when I'm not fulfilling other obligations.

ok, so you tried something risky on your own and apparently it didn't work out. yep, that's risk. sucks, but that's what business is about. my personal problem with this is that it sounds like you risked and possibly lost money that was sourced from other people for a GB that you had not yet delivered on by presumably using margin from the RA gb on this starcraft thing and yet you somehow think this is something that redeems you.

and then, because you lost this money, you're now complaining because you don't have enough money to cleanly take on additional risk now that SP's inevitably made a production mistake. and then on top of this, you want to take this risk on anyway by taking a bridge loan. and then on top of this you use your usual appeals to emotion and are completely opaque and irrationally defensive when questioned about it.

Yeah I invest in the product. I put the money I make to good use doing and making things nobody else is doing on here. I'm sorry I don't have the time or the money left to put up my own website and do whatever you think I should be doing. Its funny because last year, when I actually had the resources available to have a website made, I suggested it before everyone else did it, and guess what? Hazeluff shot it down, only to start up KeyboardStory less than 6 months later. Last time I checked I don't HAVE to do what you say, I usually just end up doing it so you stop b!tching at everything I do. Everyone else here makes money off of doing group buys, quit picking on me because I'm more open about it.

yes, it's sure a good thing that the administration team puts their own time and money into giving everyone a free advertising platform to make money with, isn't it? (except for that ***** mkawa, man i hate that guy :/).

Its funny how once you guys tell me what I should do, I do it, and apparently that makes me a flip flopper and not someone people should be doing business with. I ask, how am I not consistent in what I do, offer, and deliver? How are you not making a good guy greg pic of me for trying to get everyone lower prices for everyone, keep SP happy, and provide (clearly desired, I've had a half dozen PMs for them since I sold out) keysets to those that missed out? So Melissa was going to give me keysets to sell on consignment, what of it? I mean that's what it is. I sell them for SP and they get the vast majority of any proceeds. From the start I stated it was doubtful I would end up making any money at all, and yet you guys jump all over me like I'm some evil keycap monger out to peddle overpriced keycaps to you addicts.

this is a silly immature rant. selling something on consignment is equivalent to short-term financing. look it up in the business textbooks you're constantly referring to.

Sorry, but I really don't care what you try to paint me as, I know plenty of people that think you both are out of line. Its also funny how I think you're both ****s but I'm going to do what you said because I really don't care to go through all the work of doing what I planned now. Grats, you win, now go away.

i told mkawa the administrator this and he said "all the time i spend working with the rest of the team to keep geekhack up is lost time and money for me, but if i go away then this guy and the other vendors won't have their opportunities to grow the keyboard community, so no i'm not going to go away, i'm going to do it anyway"

personally, i don't recommend doing business with you because you're immature and have consistently shown that you're not very good with money. in addition, you've accused me in this very thread of trying to steal business from you by buying these error keys you can't afford and selling them for a profit. i find this to be personally offensive because it's something i can't afford to do and wouldn't want to do anyways because, among other things, my administrator alter-ego is too busy losing time and money helping stand this site up. what i said i would do and will be doing is telling mel that if she feels her job is in trouble, i am happy to buy a couple sets directly from her for personal use to support signature plastics and their awesome customer support team.

[emptyk]

^ mkawa, are you an attorney, a law student, or a contracts administrator by any chance?  Sorry for the threadcrapping, but I am just curious.

[fartq]

no. that contingent of our userbase has been wise enough to stay away from this thread

[Glissant]

Yet another assumption based on limited information. Good job!

[IPT]

Yet another assumption based on limited information. Good job!

its what GH does best apparently :-)

[demik]

I'll stick my two cents in.

I'd be sad if the groupbuy organiser didn't make a little bit of money as they have to do so much work behind the scenes. I understand that it is for the community but you can't expect people to run these things without some compensation for doing so.

Great job so far Rag, thanks again.

There is nothing wrong about making money doing this.

But when it's your main motivation, **** you and get a vendor forum.

Take the risk yourself (SK, boilermaker and niqmods did) and stop trying to hide behind this bull**** "I do for the community" act.

Rag has stated that it he "doesn't make a thousand it's not worth it".

Yet he continues to nickle and dime whenever he ****s up by giving you some bull**** sob story.

I honestly don't understand why people don't get this.

[Ragnorock]

My responses are in bold

ok, look, against my better judgement, i'm going to post one last time here. again, this is my personal opinion and does not reflect that of this website or management except _exactly_ where noted.

first off, i'm getting a better idea of the conversation that you had with mel. you said "i didn't order base sets with red modifiers, i ordered base sets with grey modifiers." "oh well crap, looks like you're right, that sucks. well what do you want to do" "well, i don't have enough cash to buy these error sets from you guys so..." "well, i can give them to you on short-term financing if you think you can move them, and if you can recover the entire cost for me, that would be fine with me" "ok, but i'm not sure how many i can move" "well... let me run this by management and why don't you ask around and see how many you can move"
Again, you're making wild assumptions and statements that directly contradict what I have explained previously. That is not AT ALL how the conversation went. The words "short term financing" or "if you can recover the cost for me" and well honestly, none of the quotes you said are at all accurate aside from "oh well crap, looks like you're right, that sucks." The actual conversation went like this: (As detailed as I can remember)

D: Hey Melissa, how are you today?
M: Good, you?
D: I'm alright but better than you're going to be in a minute, we've got a big problem with the red alert order, all of the base sets have red modifiers instead of all red on white keys
M: Oh no! We must have gone off of the image you sent depicting the red modifiers as the base set. I'm so sorry.
D: Yeah, I know that's a pretty big mistake and I want to try and figure out a way that it both gets fixed but you guys don't lose a bunch of money over fixing it for us, so here's what I was thinking. Since I know that the keys are worth a lot more in their current form to the keyboard enthusiasts out there than they are in raw materials, shipping them back to you so you can regrind a few hundred in materials costs doesn't make sense. Instead I think we should try and sell them at a reduced cost, something like $20 or so, to move the merchandise and hopefully I can sell enough of them to recoup most or all of what its going to cost for you to make the new keys
M: Okay, yeah that'll work, you don't even have to pay for them now. I can send you the new keys and when you sell enough to pay for the accident sets, you can pay for them.
D: Okay yeah that sounds fine, I'll go see what the guys on GH think and if you could let me know as soon as you can when production will be able to have the replacement keys by that'd be great, thanks so much Melissa.
M: No problem, again I'm really sorry this happened, I was supposed to send you a proof of what we were going to run before we did.
D: No worries, mistakes happen and I want to make this one as painless as possible for you since you help us out so much. I'll talk to you later

And that's it. I made the assumption that Melissa could potentially lose her job, because I figured that was a reasonable assumption at the time. From the email I received today, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case, so w/e on that front.

then you come here and post about how SP's made a huge mistake and mel could possibly be fired you want to sell as many of these as possible so she doesn't get fired. then you say "i don't know exactly how many i need to sell or at what price i need to sell them to help her but if i don't sell these SP's going to have to take a huge loss and mel could get fired"

As you can see from the conversation above, we didn't figure out how many I'd need to sell or at how much. After I got off of the phone I worked out that I would need to offer a refund in addition to contributing to SP, but what that amount could be calculated relatively easily, I didn't have their info on costs, whether it be per set or overall. Thus I just went and proposed the plan with what info I had. Again that was probably a bad decision, but I blame the feeling of urgency from discovering the mistake and wanting to let everyone know right away.

here's what i would have said instead. "look dudes, SP's made a huge mistake again and i don't have enough money to buy the error keys from them, even though they look great. mel's offered me a short-term financing deal but we haven't worked out terms yet. if anyone has a chunk of cash and wants to either move these or help me move them, let me know. otherwise, i'll get back to you guys when i know the terms."
That probably would have been a much better way to put it, though it never even occurred to me that it was "short term financing" (because she wasn't going to be charging me anything) until you told me it was. I still disagree that it actually is, but if you want to interpret it that way I can't stop you (clearly.)

notice that the first is an appeal to emotion that's incredibly opaque on what the actual state of the transaction is, while the second is a completely transparent accounting of events and prognosis. notice that even though they both ask for help from the community, the second does so in a perfectly transparent way, while the first does not. now, i'm going to keep saying this, but speaking personally, i've seen you do two of these set gbs and both times you've come back to the community with an emotion filled appeal for more money in some way. the first time, you failed to account for sorting costs, "but hey you guys i negotiated mel down to a price i can pay out of pocket, but now i have no margin and this suckssss so please chip in if you can" (note that, if anything, that got mel into more trouble than her taking back these error keys will get her into).
If you want to talk about emotional appeal, okay yes, I convey emotion in my posts, it helps get the point across. I'm not sitting here begging for money, and any transparency you think is veiled by emotional appeal is flat out wrong. I've never ever tried to use emotional appeal to sway others from doing the exact logical thing they should do. The sorting fee for the Ragnarok group buy was a shining example of how great this community is. Don't tarnish it's memory by saying I took advantage of people's pity in order to get a bunch of money out of everyone, that's so horribly rude. Several users went above and beyond the call of duty because I was suddenly forced to pay about $400 out of pocket and I asked anyone who was willing to contribute their share of the sorting fee if possible (~$2.) When the donations came rolling in I told everyone to stop when I got close to the goal because I didn't want people sending me money for nothing. I haven't forgotten who those people were either by the way. They all get gold stars in my book. I'm pretty sure whenever something like that happens for someone else on here, I'll be one of the first to contribute, and I'm sure you'll be right next to me doing the same.

also notice that every time you're criticized you come back with a martyr defense. "oh you guys just don't like me." no, i don't like the fact that you've become increasingly opaque in your dealings, are constantly appealing to emotion, and are consistently toeing the line between proxy buying and retailing despite calling yourself "the group buy guy".

What in the hell does that mean? How have I not been transparent about everything? Yeah I get defensive, and I certainly have good reason to be if I think you and Demik are in here calling me dishonest to try and discourage people from participating in my group buys. I get extremely upset when people accuse me of being dishonest or inconsistent. I'm not a retailer in the slightest. I buy leftovers just like everyone else does. I also go the extra mile to give everyone full disclosure on every step of the way. That has been one of the hallmarks of my group buys and you act like that isn't the case. You're accusing me of being "opaque" over and over again, but where have you caught me not telling the truth or witholding information? Where Mkawa, where? I'd dearly like to know because I haven't been hiding anything or misleading anyone. Each time I ask you to provide proof to back up your position, you don't. Don't go using your assumptions again either, because that doesn't work. If you're right I'll eat my words and profusely apologize for not being as entirely up front as I possibly can.

you should get a vendor subforum

Yes I make moneys off of these group buys, it pays my rent. It buys me a few keysets or keyboards here and there, but it doesn't make me afford a new car or anything like that.

and that is why.

if you want to make money off the community, take the risk yourself and invest in the product.

boilermaker did it. keyboard story did it.

Because buying 1500 blank PBT keys from SP to ship to Imsto before even putting up an order thread isn't risky at all? Because that's not what I'm doing or anything... Or what about how I bought $1200 worth of keysets for people who hadn't paid their invoices, (most of which never did,) just to get the group buy in on time. Or how I'm trying to produce a Starcraft 2 themed dyesub set that includes race (and maybe Blizzard) logos sourced from China in advance and dyesubbed spell keys that cost me hundreds to have multiple proofs run so that they actually look good when I go to have them run. Unfortunately due to cost increases its pretty unlikely its even going to work because even at the 100 tier price the base TKL keysets are $100 not even including the spell keys. So I'll probably be out hundreds on a failed group buy that gets no orders. But hey, that's not what I'm working on at all over here... or what I've been spending practically my entire summer on when I'm not fulfilling other obligations.

ok, so you tried something risky on your own and apparently it didn't work out. yep, that's risk. sucks, but that's what business is about. my personal problem with this is that it sounds like you risked and possibly lost money that was sourced from other people for a GB that you had not yet delivered on by presumably using margin from the RA gb on this starcraft thing and yet you somehow think this is something that redeems you.

and then, because you lost this money, you're now complaining because you don't have enough money to cleanly take on additional risk now that SP's inevitably made a production mistake. and then on top of this, you want to take this risk on anyway by taking a bridge loan. and then on top of this you use your usual appeals to emotion and are completely opaque and irrationally defensive when questioned about it.

Did I say I lost money? No I didn't. I said it might all be for nothing, which shows that I assume risk, which is what Demik was asking for evidence of. I haven't been complaining about not being able to afford to buy the red sets up front, again this is a flat out untruth you've fabricated. Melissa offered me a courtesy because I offered to do her a favor, there was no discussion on whether I was taking on additional risk, because there was no risk to me in doing it, there was no risk to me in the deal we arranged or I wouldn't have proposed it. You're following a delusional sequence of events that didn't happen, and you're attempting to crucify me for no reason. I wasn't being opaque, for the 5th time I told everyone everything I knew about the situation, which isn't hiding anything, it simply reflects incomplete information. Information you wanted, asked me for, and I didn't have. I never lied and said I didn't when I did, that's what being opaque would be. As for whether I used margins from the RA group buy on the SC2 thing, I used my profits, I haven't touched the money I set aside to ship everything. Its all there, waiting for me to ship everything out. I even made sure I had enough money to ship everything out by diverting some of the money I have made into covering the unpaid invoices, of which there are still about $300 of that I'm about to go cancel. Yeah I'll get that back when I sell the sets that never paid, but again that shows I assume risk. Again all you're doing is making base assumptions and judgements without any facts. Of course at this point anything I tell you you aren't going to believe anyways, so I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering... oh wait its because you're spreading falsehoods about me. Better clear those up.

Yeah I invest in the product. I put the money I make to good use doing and making things nobody else is doing on here. I'm sorry I don't have the time or the money left to put up my own website and do whatever you think I should be doing. Its funny because last year, when I actually had the resources available to have a website made, I suggested it before everyone else did it, and guess what? Hazeluff shot it down, only to start up KeyboardStory less than 6 months later. Last time I checked I don't HAVE to do what you say, I usually just end up doing it so you stop b!tching at everything I do. Everyone else here makes money off of doing group buys, quit picking on me because I'm more open about it.

yes, it's sure a good thing that the administration team puts their own time and money into giving everyone a free advertising platform to make money with, isn't it? (except for that ***** mkawa, man i hate that guy :/).

You have my thanks for getting geekhack back up and running, though it would be nice if you kept at it, the forum is basically the same as the day it went back live, and it still needs a ton of work. I recognize how much time and effort it took to do though, so really you can delete that last comment, I really don't hate you, I just hate how you're treating me.

Its funny how once you guys tell me what I should do, I do it, and apparently that makes me a flip flopper and not someone people should be doing business with. I ask, how am I not consistent in what I do, offer, and deliver? How are you not making a good guy greg pic of me for trying to get everyone lower prices for everyone, keep SP happy, and provide (clearly desired, I've had a half dozen PMs for them since I sold out) keysets to those that missed out? So Melissa was going to give me keysets to sell on consignment, what of it? I mean that's what it is. I sell them for SP and they get the vast majority of any proceeds. From the start I stated it was doubtful I would end up making any money at all, and yet you guys jump all over me like I'm some evil keycap monger out to peddle overpriced keycaps to you addicts.

this is a silly immature rant. selling something on consignment is equivalent to short-term financing. look it up in the business textbooks you're constantly referring to.

It isn't if there is no charge to me to do so. Short term financing requires me to take ownership of the materials, which I wasn't. In addition, I would have to pay some sort of installment or fee in order for it to be financing... so I'd have to send SP some money at some point for letting me hold on to and sell the materials. Finally, if I was to take ownership of the materials, I'd have to provide some form of consideration in exchange for the keys otherwise they're a gift to me. Since there would be no money transferred, the closest thing it comes to is gifting, which has no legal binding. What it IS is a favor, I do her a favor and she does me a favor. In a legal sense I was offering to work for SP for free by selling their merchandise on behalf of them. I wouldn't have owned it at any point, but I would have had it in my possession while I was selling it. Lots of drop shipment sellers do something like that.

Sorry, but I really don't care what you try to paint me as, I know plenty of people that think you both are out of line. Its also funny how I think you're both ****s but I'm going to do what you said because I really don't care to go through all the work of doing what I planned now. Grats, you win, now go away.

i told mkawa the administrator this and he said "all the time i spend working with the rest of the team to keep geekhack up is lost time and money for me, but if i go away then this guy and the other vendors won't have their opportunities to grow the keyboard community, so no i'm not going to go away, i'm going to do it anyway"

personally, i don't recommend doing business with you because you're immature and have consistently shown that you're not very good with money. in addition, you've accused me in this very thread of trying to steal business from you by buying these error keys you can't afford and selling them for a profit. i find this to be personally offensive because it's something i can't afford to do and wouldn't want to do anyways because, among other things, my administrator alter-ego is too busy losing time and money helping stand this site up. what i said i would do and will be doing is telling mel that if she feels her job is in trouble, i am happy to buy a couple sets directly from her for personal use to support signature plastics and their awesome customer support team.

Again I said at the very moment I wrote it that I wasn't saying you were the slightest bit dishonest, which is what stealing business would be- dishonest. That's great you'd buy a few sets from Melissa too, that's what I'm going to do in order to provide leftovers for guys like Elrick that didn't get in. I was hoping that you were planning on buying a significant portion of them since we've obviously determined that I can't right now. I wouldn't care in the slightest even if you were "stealing business" from me because one way or the other SP gets some money back, which was my main goal anyways. Its not stealing business if my goal wasn't to make money off of doing it. Anyways, if you were to buy a bunch of red mod sets, Business Dave would expect that you would sell those you don't need so that administrator mkawa could help fund Geekhack improvements. Sounds like a good guy greg thing to do to me. I honestly meant nothing offensive in what I said, you just interpreted it that way. All I want you and Demik to stop doing is making statements based on falsehoods and misinterpretation and portraying me as someone I'm not. I just won't stand for that. Its not immaturity, its irritation. Also because this has gone on far too long, I'd like to be done with this. I still haven't even gotten to taking pictures for Dan because I've been so busy keeping you from defaming me.

[Ragnorock]

@ Demik: Clearly you don't know how to read because I just explained, in detail, how I take plenty of risks. I guess none of that counts? Get a life dude, I'll get a vender subforum when I'm ready, which was going to be soon but now I don't want to just to piss you off. I also never said money was my main motivation for doing this, you did. Last time I checked, you're not me (thankfully) and you don't get to speak for me. You also don't get to speak for me and then tell me what to do based off of it. Only time I ****ed up was when I didn't know about the sorting fee, and Melissa never told me. So that's once, and it wasn't all my fault either, that's why she didn't charge me the full sorting fee. Pretty sure I'm allowed a mistake or two, I'm human too, and we allow SP to all the time. I didn't give a sob story, but you'll call it what you want, everyone there already knows the truth, and those that don't can go look at the thread as long as nobody's abusing their mod powers and editing anything. (Again not saying you would, just saying)

[hazeluff]

Yeah I invest in the product. I put the money I make to good use doing and making things nobody else is doing on here. I'm sorry I don't have the time or the money left to put up my own website and do whatever you think I should be doing. Its funny because last year, when I actually had the resources available to have a website made, I suggested it before everyone else did it, and guess what? Hazeluff shot it down, only to start up KeyboardStory less than 6 months later. Last time I checked I don't HAVE to do what you say, I usually just end up doing it so you stop b!tching at everything I do.

Hey mate, KeyboardStory is something me and sherry made to Sell keys. It's a store, where we bought up  keys with our own money to resell.

[Ragnorock]

I didn't say it wasn't? You did something other than what I was suggesting, which is why I never got mad about it. I brought that up because Demik keeps telling me I should become a vendor when I already abandoned that path.

[thegunner100]

Mmm... drama! I didn't participate in this GB, so i'll just stay out of it :x

[demik]

How many of those risks came out of pocket and not from the nickle and diming you do? Or from the buying up to the next price tier while charging everybody the more expensive price?

You can do whatever the **** you want, just stop playing this bull**** martyr role.

[litster]

Rag, you just made that whole "Melissa could get fired" up to jerk our tears?  I am thoroughlly disappointed.

[Ragnorock]

I can certainly do that, as long as you quit trolling me every chance you get.

Rag, you just made that whole "Melissa could get fired" up to jerk our tears?  I am thoroughlly disappointed.

What? No I didn't. I thought she could so I said I thought she could. I don't make stuff up man, thats the other guys' job.

[hazeluff]

I didn't say it wasn't? You did something other than what I was suggesting, which is why I never got mad about it. I brought that up because Demik keeps telling me I should become a vendor when I already abandoned that path.

Well then, I don't see why I needed to be called out. =='

[litster]

You thought she could be fired?  You said it over and over again, and used that as the reason you are going to resell the keys to pay back SP so you could save her job that you think she is losing, when the word "fire" was never said or implied in your conversation with Melissa?  That is a lie to try to con people into buying the the wrong keys as charity.

[fartq]

Oh god. You guys aren't going to believe this. I'm home. I have the keys. All 3 giant boxes of them. I open them up to sort through everything, and SP... made every base set with red modifiers instead of white. So that 1st picture you saw before, of the whole keyset including what we all thought was the red mod kit instead to show how that looks... that's what we got for base sets. I just got off the phone after a fairly painful phone call (particularly for Melissa I'm sure) and they're going to make all the red on white keys that should be there... but that means I now have 200 red mod sets (not including the spacebar.)

What does that mean? Well first off it means I'm not going to get them mailed out this week like I planned, which sucks because I know everyone wants them yesterday and I kinda just drove 8 hours to do it. That also means that effective today, this accidental red mod set will be price adjusted to $20 so that I can off them as quickly as possible. I will refund the difference to those orders who paid the group buy price of $27 and the leftover price of $35 (I haven't sold any leftovers that weren't on sale, so none at $40.) If you do the math, that's about $1000 that I don't have right now since I have to keep money on hand to ship them. Once enough proceeds are made from selling the extra red mod sets, I'll be able to refund them. So now is a GREAT time to buy them as contrast set for another keyset or if you didn't get one in the group buy.

This is where you say: "But wait Dave, hold on a minute!" Because you're thinking if I have almost 200 sets and I'm selling them at $20 a pop, isn't that near $3000 (less refunds) that goes into my pocket? No. I will be paying most of that to SP in order to help them absorb the loss from having to remake that many keys. That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired. Also I highly doubt I will be able to unload 200 extra red mod kits in a reasonable time frame, if at all. SP knows they screwed up, and I'm doing them a big favor by doing this, (instead of just sending them back so they can get a couple hundred in materials costs back,) so as much as I can get them back I'm sure they'll be happy with. That also means more people get cool custom keycaps. That's the best situation I can think of, if anyone has any thoughts or ideas how I can do better, I'm all ears. Unfortunately I can't just give everyone a free mod kit, as much fun as that would be.

The main question that remains is when they'll be able to get me the keys by. I've got an extremely busy schedule these next few weeks leading up to school on the 20th, and I've gotta go back up to Canada in about a week. That means if they can't get them to me by then (I can swing a day or two, but I do have to go back up there before school) then they won't ship out until I get back on or around the 14th. Melissa is talking to production right now trying to see if they can get it done but I haven't heard back yet. Considering the differing sizes etc, it may actually take them a week just to make them, even if they put everything else on hold. We'll see.


^Disregard, Melissa says they think they can get them done by next Thrusday, overnight them to me so they'll be there on Friday, and hopefully I can get them all packed and shipped out by Saturday. I will have every box labelled and ready to go in order to do it as quickly as possible. I dropped everything once I found this out so I could get it fixed and let you guys know, so give me a bit to finish unpacking, pay my rent, and I'll get some pictures taken of what we have so far in a bit.

One final note to all SP group buy organizers, SP will now be sending out some form of template showing exactly what production is going to run before they make it so that there are no more mistakes like this... That also likely means that if you don't catch a mistake, you may be SOL, as the burden of correctness now lies on you once you give the go ahead.

Dave out

Nono, Melissa/SP owned up to their mistake. They're willing to just replace them and eat a multi thousand dollar loss, but its generally good business practice to take care of your supplier whenever possible. I guess that's the Supply Chain Management class I took talking. There shouldn't be any problems with what she proposes, every manufacturer I've ever studied does it that way because its simply the right way to do it. Why check for mistakes after things are made? Obviously if a key is manufactured wrong and QC didn't catch it they'll still be fixing that- that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about major inconsistencies with what we've ordered such as this. So they missed an arrow on a backspace key? Yeah they'll fix that like they always do? Crooked S? Yeah no problem. What you mean you wanted purple legends instead of orange? Well on the image we sent you they were orange and you said it was correct, so that's what you get.

... That's what I'm referring to. Make sense?

I haven't determined that yet, I still need to work that out with Melissa. We basically had a crisis management conversation where we tried to figure out the best possible path of action and then ended the call so we could inform our respective parties. I will make sure all of your contributions from buying extras goes to them, no worries. Like I said above, its likely that I'll end up paying them a fixed amount that gets diluted down the more sets I sell. For example if I only manage to sell 100 sets, then it is likely that all of the proceeds will go to them... and I'm stuck with a bunch of mod sets that nobody wants to buy, but if I end up selling 1 a month, I get that money. Woo $20. Again, I'm doing this to keep SP from losing a lot/all profit they made off of running these keys for us, not for myself. If I do only sell 100, then it likely won't even cover how much SP is out on this round, but at least the loss won't be NEARLY as significant as it would had I just said "F(&K guys, can't you get anything right? I need this fixed ASAP, get it done." Also, even if I'm stuck with a bunch of inventory at the end of this, I'll just sit on them, I won't be lowering the price to $10 or anything out of fairness.

just quoting in case of ex post facto editing

[Ragnorock]

You thought she could be fired?  You said it over and over again, and used that as the reason you are going to resell the keys to pay back SP so you could save her job that you think she is losing, when the word "fire" was never said or implied in your conversation with Melissa?  That is a lie to try to con people into buying the the wrong keys as charity.

Uhh no. You're taking my words out of context, but its clear I miss-worded it. The reason I was going to sell the keys was to keep SP from eating another loss on our behalf. If you look at this post:

because you want to, no? or did Melissa tell you that the only way you are getting the white mods is if you pay for it again?

I hope SP learns from this. It's ridiculous that stuff goes "missing" on their part.

Yes I want to make it so their huge mistake is as financially small as possible, both for the GH - SP relationship and for Melissa's job security. No she didn't say that's the only way I'm getting the keys. I suggested this plan so they don't just eat the loss. Generally when someone keeps making multi thousand dollar mistakes it sortof looks bad. I don't even know what to do about the portal sets, it looks like they used the same printing setup for the first 13 keys, so everything that was a part of the original Portal set is exactly the same as it was the first time- no added colors. So what do I do now? Tell her to reprint me 110 portal sets (looking at the invoice that cost us $2560, so after their markup that's probably an $1800 mistake too.)

I said the underlined part to clarify that nobody stated she might lose her job, I just thought it was a reasonable possibility given the history of mistakes SP has had. I'm sorry for any confusion, I was not trying to say that I had to sell these keys to save Melissa at any point. I get how that could be misinterpreted now that you've pointed it out, and you have my apologies. Yesterday was kindof a mess if you haven't noticed.


@ Mkawa, please highlight the parts you think I'm being "opaque" in, or at least I think that's what you were trying to do. All I see is my posts which I think are just fine.

[demik]

SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired.

[Ragnorock]

In the post above I just admitted its clear I miss-worded it, what more do you want? Or did you not read my post before you posted that maybe?

[bellaisa]

i need cliffs.  i ordered a RA base set, and would like a red mod set to go with it. how much do I have to pay extra? Also, an extra numberpad set as well..

[Ragnorock]

Cliffs is a bunch of people are mad at me for trying to give everyone a partial refund on their red mod sets and sell the extras to cover that, SP's cost on fixing it, and potentially if enough sold, some in my pocket for sorting/selling all of them. Instead I'm sending them back with the exception of 10 of them, which I bought to sell as leftovers. Being as how I don't think I should sell them for $40 now, I'll just offer them at $35 for good since that's the only leftover price I sold at, and won't have to give any refunds. I think I still have a spare 104 kit, but I still haven't gotten back to unpacking because of all the drama.

Look for my leftovers for sale thread to be updated later today, its here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27740.0

[fartq]

the only effect this will have on your order is time to delivery. there are no extra red mod sets. exactly what was ordered will be delivered; there will just be a delay. if rag ordered extras you can contact him directly to inquire as to the price of them.

finally, i have direct word from melissa that her employment is not in danger in any way shape or form, that they are in the process of recovering the error keys, and that they are still deciding what to do with them. if one would like to inquire as to availability of these keys, the signature plastics site @ http://www.keycapsdirect.com/ contains their contact information.

thanks folks. this post will end my involvement in this thread, and most likely in any future thread of rag's.

[sth]

Cliffs is a bunch of people are mad at me for trying to give everyone a partial refund on their red mod sets and sell the extras to cover that, SP's cost on fixing it, and potentially if enough sold, some in my pocket for sorting/selling all of them.

Let me restate, for the record, that people are mad at you because you are a liar and a sneak.

[Ragnorock]

Let me restate, for the record, that I am not, and take great offense to that comment. I also find it awfully suspicious that neither Mkawa or you are participating in this group buy, yet you were compelled to go well out of your way to threadcrap for days.

[demik]

sth has at most 3-4 replies since this happened.

You also forgot to mention in your cliff notes the sob story you tried to use in the beginning when you had no idea if Melissa was in trouble or not (thanks kawa for clearing that up).

[Ragnorock]

Learn to count, there's 15. If that's your definition of a sob story, I worry about your reading comprehension.

[Zehkul]

You must be ****ing retarded.

They are not rag's, because that is NOT what rag ordered. SP is sending rag his missing keys. What is there not to get?

Same thing happened with the Riddler's key GB. SP did the wrong row, fixed the problem and asked tsangan if he wanted to buy those keys at a discounted price.

Rag is offering to help SP sell these, because there seems to be interest in them anyway. If he would have said no, they would have taken it back. 85 perfectly fine sets.

Yeah, but what would they do with them? Who would buy them? They don’t gain anything from taking them back, which is why they sometimes don’t even bother doing so. So it definitely is nice to buy them. But the same as for the “Tsangan incident”, even if you don’t want to make profit of it, it’s hard to do so. No one forces you to buy either, and I didn’t get the impression that Rag pulled all triggers to make us sad and wanna save Melissa/SP (lol). And by the way, Tsangan did even less so, and he got pages of *****ing, too.

Speaking of bothering, why did I bother reading the last pages of crap? Jeez. Some people here just love *****ing around. Drama on the internet!!1 Is this story really worth writing dozens of posts about it and ruining the atmosphere here? Am I the only one who thinks WHO ****ING CARES?


I’m not even in this GB, but I’d take one of those red mod sets, I think. ISO shifts available? My rag set is more and more turning into some sort of carnival festival (billiards xD), so it would actually fit very well, lol. I’ve got some time to decide until you ship my portal/whatever stuff, right? ;P

[litster]

You must be ****ing retarded.

They are not rag's, because that is NOT what rag ordered. SP is sending rag his missing keys. What is there not to get?

Same thing happened with the Riddler's key GB. SP did the wrong row, fixed the problem and asked tsangan if he wanted to buy those keys at a discounted price.

Rag is offering to help SP sell these, because there seems to be interest in them anyway. If he would have said no, they would have taken it back. 85 perfectly fine sets.

Yeah, but what would they do with them? Who would buy them? They don’t gain anything from taking them back, which is why they sometimes don’t even bother doing so. So it definitely is nice to buy them. But the same as for the “Tsangan incident”, even if you don’t want to make profit of it, it’s hard to do so. No one forces you to buy either, and I didn’t get the impression that Rag pulled all triggers to make us sad and wanna save Melissa/SP (lol). And by the way, Tsangan did even less so, and he got pages of *****ing, too.

Speaking of bothering, why did I bother reading the last pages of crap? Jeez. Some people here just love *****ing around. Drama on the internet!!1 Is this story really worth writing dozens of posts about it and ruining the atmosphere here? Am I the only one who thinks WHO ****ING CARES?


I’m not even in this GB, but I’d take one of those red mod sets, I think. ISO shifts available? My rag set is more and more turning into some sort of carnival festival (billiards xD), so it would actually fit very well, lol. I’ve got some time to decide until you ship my portal/whatever stuff, right? ;P

Hum, look who's talking...

[demik]

i wish i understood what exactly he was asking/trying to say/disagreeing with/agreeing with so i could reply.

but none of that makes any sense whatsoever.

[MMB]

i wish i understood what exactly he was asking/trying to say/disagreeing with/agreeing with so i could reply.

but none of that makes any sense whatsoever.

I dunno, all I heard from that was

[Zehkul]

Ranting about rants in ok, unlike ranting about this nonsense here.

[litster]

so much n00b support...

[jdcarpe]

<-- Not exactly a n00b...

[litster]

You n00bs are so gullible. 

Fool n00b once, shame on you.  Fool n00b twice, shame on n00b.

And in this case, n00b as in n00b in life, not n00b on GH.

[Acanthophis]

n00b is so 2005...

[danielucf]

I read through all the shenanigans throughout the last several pages and I think I can simplify what happened.
Information was stated that was not fact but conjecture. Opinions were formed and assumptions were made off of incomplete data leading to attacks and more incomplete data being spread.

Lessons to be learned:
Do not post anything until you have all the information.
Do not form opinions or make assumptions on what you think is incomplete data.

Here is my own lesson that I've learned as a consumer for the last how ever many years I've been buying things (almost 30 years old as of this writing):
If a company screws up, let them fix it. If they want help fixing it from you as the consumer they will ask.
In this situation if Melissa thought her job was in jeopardy she would have asked if they could be moved before that idea being proposing to her.

I fully support Ragnorock and understand what he was trying to do, but sometimes you have to let people or companies fall flat on their face or they will never be responsible. Maybe the next person would be 100x better and jump as high as we tell them to, maybe they would suck until being replaced. Not our call or position to mettle with.


On a side note I think it is crazy to think that someone who does a group buy is expected to break exactly even on product acquisition and shipping supplies/cost. If the community wants that to be the case then we need to rotate who does group buys. Or the amount of profit the community is okay with needs to be declared.

Maybe none of this is suitable for me to comment on, but after reading it all I felt compelled to respond.

[litster]

Making money as a vendor disguised as group buy organizer aside, you made up stories to convince people into buying the wrongly made keycaps.

I don't have a problem with you making money as a vendor.  I have a problem with you lying to us.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31887.msg631055#msg631055

Red and bold is mine.  You said as a matter of fact that due to the mistake, Melissa will be fired.

Oh god. You guys aren't going to believe this. I'm home. I have the keys. All 3 giant boxes of them. I open them up to sort through everything, and SP... made every base set with red modifiers instead of white. So that 1st picture you saw before, of the whole keyset including what we all thought was the red mod kit instead to show how that looks... that's what we got for base sets. I just got off the phone after a fairly painful phone call (particularly for Melissa I'm sure) and they're going to make all the red on white keys that should be there... but that means I now have 200 red mod sets (not including the spacebar.)

What does that mean? Well first off it means I'm not going to get them mailed out this week like I planned, which sucks because I know everyone wants them yesterday and I kinda just drove 8 hours to do it. That also means that effective today, this accidental red mod set will be price adjusted to $20 so that I can off them as quickly as possible. I will refund the difference to those orders who paid the group buy price of $27 and the leftover price of $35 (I haven't sold any leftovers that weren't on sale, so none at $40.) If you do the math, that's about $1000 that I don't have right now since I have to keep money on hand to ship them. Once enough proceeds are made from selling the extra red mod sets, I'll be able to refund them. So now is a GREAT time to buy them as contrast set for another keyset or if you didn't get one in the group buy.

This is where you say: "But wait Dave, hold on a minute!" Because you're thinking if I have almost 200 sets and I'm selling them at $20 a pop, isn't that near $3000 (less refunds) that goes into my pocket? No. I will be paying most of that to SP in order to help them absorb the loss from having to remake that many keys. That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired. Also I highly doubt I will be able to unload 200 extra red mod kits in a reasonable time frame, if at all. SP knows they screwed up, and I'm doing them a big favor by doing this, (instead of just sending them back so they can get a couple hundred in materials costs back,) so as much as I can get them back I'm sure they'll be happy with. That also means more people get cool custom keycaps. That's the best situation I can think of, if anyone has any thoughts or ideas how I can do better, I'm all ears. Unfortunately I can't just give everyone a free mod kit, as much fun as that would be.

The main question that remains is when they'll be able to get me the keys by. I've got an extremely busy schedule these next few weeks leading up to school on the 20th, and I've gotta go back up to Canada in about a week. That means if they can't get them to me by then (I can swing a day or two, but I do have to go back up there before school) then they won't ship out until I get back on or around the 14th. Melissa is talking to production right now trying to see if they can get it done but I haven't heard back yet. Considering the differing sizes etc, it may actually take them a week just to make them, even if they put everything else on hold. We'll see.


^Disregard, Melissa says they think they can get them done by next Thrusday, overnight them to me so they'll be there on Friday, and hopefully I can get them all packed and shipped out by Saturday. I will have every box labelled and ready to go in order to do it as quickly as possible. I dropped everything once I found this out so I could get it fixed and let you guys know, so give me a bit to finish unpacking, pay my rent, and I'll get some pictures taken of what we have so far in a bit.

One final note to all SP group buy organizers, SP will now be sending out some form of template showing exactly what production is going to run before they make it so that there are no more mistakes like this... That also likely means that if you don't catch a mistake, you may be SOL, as the burden of correctness now lies on you once you give the go ahead.

Dave out

When wkawa pressed, you restated your conversation with Melissa.  At no time did you or Melissa explicitly or implicitly said that she would be fired because of this.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34434.msg631736#msg631736

D: Hey Melissa, how are you today?
M: Good, you?
D: I'm alright but better than you're going to be in a minute, we've got a big problem with the red alert order, all of the base sets have red modifiers instead of all red on white keys
M: Oh no! We must have gone off of the image you sent depicting the red modifiers as the base set. I'm so sorry.
D: Yeah, I know that's a pretty big mistake and I want to try and figure out a way that it both gets fixed but you guys don't lose a bunch of money over fixing it for us, so here's what I was thinking. Since I know that the keys are worth a lot more in their current form to the keyboard enthusiasts out there than they are in raw materials, shipping them back to you so you can regrind a few hundred in materials costs doesn't make sense. Instead I think we should try and sell them at a reduced cost, something like $20 or so, to move the merchandise and hopefully I can sell enough of them to recoup most or all of what its going to cost for you to make the new keys
M: Okay, yeah that'll work, you don't even have to pay for them now. I can send you the new keys and when you sell enough to pay for the accident sets, you can pay for them.
D: Okay yeah that sounds fine, I'll go see what the guys on GH think and if you could let me know as soon as you can when production will be able to have the replacement keys by that'd be great, thanks so much Melissa.
M: No problem, again I'm really sorry this happened, I was supposed to send you a proof of what we were going to run before we did.
D: No worries, mistakes happen and I want to make this one as painless as possible for you since you help us out so much. I'll talk to you later

[Ragnorock]

For the 5th time, you misconstrued the wording. Again, as I said previously, I recognize the ambiguity in that sentence and apologized for it. I wrote it in a more conversational style than I should have. However, it should be obvious that I wasn't speaking in absolutes though, since it is OBVIOUS that SP wouldn't go out of business due to this screw up. I didn't make up any stories or fabricate any truths. I will not back down from that fight, because I simply haven't. I'm sorry you have an extremely sensitive witch hunt trigger (if you hadn't been so brazenly accusational in Changdrew's group buy people could have been patient enough for him to show back up and calm everyone down.) but you're barking up the wrong tree. I am not a liar, and I have never made up any stories to get people to buy keycaps.

I'm not exactly sure what makes me a vendor and not a group buy organizer. Are you trying to say that anyone that makes money off a group buy should be considered a vendor and should be spending their own money and taking the risk instead? That's retarded. Sort of like this picture posted above in response to one of your other posts:



Finally, you should also have the cognitive ability to understand that there is no way that I could post an exact transcript of the conversation. I also stated at the time that it wasn't. After I got off of the phone, I was concerned about her job security. That's a fact. Whether it was justified or not is beside the point. By the next morning when I received a response from Melissa, that concern was removed. Its pretty damn difficult to convey that in a conversation summary. If you are an expert and would like to teach me, some lessons would be greatly appreciated.

[demik]

who else makes enough money to "pay their rent" doing these group buys?

[net2522]

Is this about "JELLY" things....?   

[Ragnorock]

Its about trolling me until I start doing group buys for free or not at all.

[net2522]

Amen~

[sth]

It's not simply about people making money off of group buys or not. Nobody argued that it was.

[litster]

Rag, if you don't remember what you wrote, take a look at what I quoted you.  And I will quote you again:

That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired.

Then when wkawa asked you again, you finally said that Melissa didn't say she would be fired.  So what is it?  What is the truth of the day? 

You know exactly what you are doing.  You tried to paint a story that if you didn't make the wrong keys available for purchase and if we didn't buy them, Melissa would get fired.  You said it in the quote above.  You wordsmithed it into your thousand-word essay.  You painted a sob story for us to read.  You did it because you saw that as another profitable opportunity.  And used the possibility of Melissa losing her job as the tear-jerker.  Well played.  Until people asked questions, then you back paddled, as your last few posts have indicated.  It is all available for everyone tor read.

As for group buy versus vendor, the differences are simple. 

Group buy: a large group of people get together, PAY IN ADVANCE, to get a a lower price.  The group shares the risks, organizers volunteer their time to organize and try to break even get a few free keys. 

Vendor: vendors pay for the goods up front with their own money, assume all the risks, and get a large pay back when it pans out.  This is what i3oilermaker, Keyboard Story, and a few others have been doing. 

Meanwhile, you use the large group to get the buying power, you assume no risk, you get a bridge loan from the group buyers, and you make a lot of money (in the thousands) from other people's risk.  Not only that, you buy up to the next price tier without sharing the discount with the rest of the group.  You take advantage of that and you make additional money from selling extra stock.  You may say you take risk by buying more.  But you already made enough from the original orders and anything else on top of that is just plain gravy.

It may not be clear to newcomers or non-groupbuy organizers.  But to anyone who has run group buys, they know exactly how it works. 

[sth]

Rag, if you don't remember what you wrote, take a look at what I quoted you.  And I will quote you again:

That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired.

Then when wkawa asked you again, you finally said that Melissa didn't say she would be fired.  So what is it?  What is the truth of the day? 

You know exactly what you are doing.  You tried to paint a story that if you didn't make the wrong keys available for purchase and if we didn't buy them, Melissa would get fired.  You said it in the quote above.  You wordsmithed it into your thousand-word essay.  You painted a sob story for us to read.  You did it because you saw that as another profitable opportunity.  And used the possibility of Melissa losing her job as the tear-jerker.  Well played.  Until people asked questions, then you back paddled, as your last few posts have indicated.  It is all available for everyone tor read.

As for group buy versus vendor, the differences are simple. 

Group buy: a large group of people get together, PAY IN ADVANCE, to get a a lower price.  The group shares the risks, organizers volunteer their time to organize and try to break even get a few free keys. 

Vendor: vendors pay for the goods up front with their own money, assume all the risks, and get a large pay back when it pans out.  This is what i3oilermaker, Keyboard Story, and a few others have been doing. 

Meanwhile, you use the large group to get the buying power, you assume no risk, you get a bridge loan from the group buyers, and you make a lot of money (in the thousands) from other people's risk.  Not only that, you buy up to the next price tier without sharing the discount with the rest of the group.  You take advantage of that and you make additional money from selling extra stock.  You may say you take risk by buying more.  But you already made enough from the original orders and anything else on top of that is just plain gravy.

It may not be clear to newcomers or non-groupbuy organizers.  But to anyone who has run group buys, they know exactly how it works. 

You're more patient than I am at this point. Thanks for spelling this out yet again.

[demik]

THIS right here, is hilarious.

Uhh no. You're taking my words out of context, but its clear I miss-worded it. The reason I was going to sell the keys was to keep SP from eating another loss on our behalf. If you look at this post:

how the **** is lit taking it out of context when ITS WHAT YOU SAID.

miss-worded until somebody called you out on it and the bs sob story you tried to make up.

and i find it pathetic how all these people ****ing sit here and act like you're a saint for "helping" sp but clearly ignored the part where you were taking a cut from the beloved company and person you wanted to "save"

[Ragnorock]

Rag, if you don't remember what you wrote, take a look at what I quoted you.  And I will quote you again:

That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired.

Then when wkawa asked you again, you finally said that Melissa didn't say she would be fired.  So what is it?  What is the truth of the day? 

You know exactly what you are doing.  You tried to paint a story that if you didn't make the wrong keys available for purchase and if we didn't buy them, Melissa would get fired.  You said it in the quote above.  You wordsmithed it into your thousand-word essay.  You painted a sob story for us to read.  You did it because you saw that as another profitable opportunity.  And used the possibility of Melissa losing her job as the tear-jerker.  Well played.  Until people asked questions, then you back paddled, as your last few posts have indicated.  It is all available for everyone tor read.

As for group buy versus vendor, the differences are simple. 

Group buy: a large group of people get together, PAY IN ADVANCE, to get a a lower price.  The group shares the risks, organizers volunteer their time to organize and try to break even get a few free keys. 

Vendor: vendors pay for the goods up front with their own money, assume all the risks, and get a large pay back when it pans out.  This is what i3oilermaker, Keyboard Story, and a few others have been doing. 

Meanwhile, you use the large group to get the buying power, you assume no risk, you get a bridge loan from the group buyers, and you make a lot of money (in the thousands) from other people's risk.  Not only that, you buy up to the next price tier without sharing the discount with the rest of the group.  You take advantage of that and you make additional money from selling extra stock.  You may say you take risk by buying more.  But you already made enough from the original orders and anything else on top of that is just plain gravy.

It may not be clear to newcomers or non-groupbuy organizers.  But to anyone who has run group buys, they know exactly how it works. 

You see that part in bold? That's horsesh!t. Apparently I was incorrect in my assumption that you had the cognitive reasoning required to comprehend the basic facts I stated previously. All you're doing is making yourself look like an ass to everyone but the little circlejerk you've got going on here. I'm not going to continue arguing 4v1 when dozens of people have come out in threads and PMs telling me to shrug the haters off and keep doing what I do because they get it and you don't. All I smell here is butthurt and I'll just let you, Demik, Kawa, and Sth deal with that. If it isn't already abundantly clear, I'll spell it out for you: I'm done dealing with the lot of you and you're no longer welcome in my group buys, comments or otherwise. If this is a problem to you, go read the rules some of you helped create, hypocrisy yo.

I know other guys make hundreds and thousands off of their group buys, they just try to keep as low a profile as possible to try and keep this **** from happening. Go pick on someone else.

[sth]

You see that part in bold? That's horsesh!t. Apparently I was incorrect in my assumption that you had the cognitive reasoning required to comprehend the basic facts I stated previously. All you're doing is making yourself look like an ass to everyone but the little circlejerk you've got going on here. I'm not going to continue arguing 4v1 when dozens of people have come out in threads and PMs telling me to shrug the haters off and keep doing what I do because they get it and you don't. All I smell here is butthurt and I'll just let you, Demik, Kawa, and Sth deal with that. If it isn't already abundantly clear, I'll spell it out for you: I'm done dealing with the lot of you and you're no longer welcome in my group buys, comments or otherwise. If this is a problem to you, go read the rules some of you helped create, hypocrisy yo.

HOW IS IT HORSE**** IF IT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID MULTIPLE TIMES

Please stop crying hypocrisy  if you can't accept responsibility for lying, and please stop resorting to namecalling when you run out of excuses for your sh!tty behavior.

[demik]

. I'm not going to continue arguing 4v1 when dozens of people have come out in threads and PMs telling me to shrug the haters off and keep doing what I do because they get it and you don't.

can't help the ones that love to over pay and then get nickle and dimed over some bull**** story.

Yeah it looks like they didn't do an inverse GH key like I asked, but imo no big deal.

**** it, right? i mean you already charged everybody for it and the money is in your pocket. NO BIG DEAL.

how the **** are people defending this ****?

I know other guys make hundreds and thousands off of their group buys, they just try to keep as low a profile as possible to try and keep this **** from happening. Go pick on someone else.

sure you do.

now, who is running gb's big enough to make "thousands" again?