Why are old doubleshots so desirable?

[neeb]

Hey guys I was wondering something; why are old doubleshot keys (or any old keycaps) so desirable? I see a lot of talk about salvaging old keyboards for their keycaps and stuff like that, why? Is it just the retro look or are those keycaps harder to find now or what exactly?

Sorry if most people consider this to be common sense, I'm pretty new to most of this.

[AKIMbO]

Old cherry boards have very thick doubleshot keycaps.  Wyse boards have a beautiful color scheme (navy blue on white & yellow on gray).  To get a new set of doubleshots you have to get in on a group buy and to do that is usually around the same price as buying old boards and salvaging the keycaps off of them. 

TLDR; They are cheap and sometimes very thick (inb4 that's what she said).

[neeb]

Old cherry boards have very thick doubleshot keycaps.  Wyse boards have a beautiful color scheme (navy blue on white & yellow on gray).  To get a new set of doubleshots you have to get in on a group buy and to do that is usually around the same price as buying old boards and salvaging the keycaps off of them. 

TLDR; They are cheap and sometimes very thick (inb4 that's what she said).

Lmao.

And the thickness of the keycap means what exactly? It lasts longer, it's just more comfortable (ie it 'feels' better when typing on them) or?

I personally only have experience with one mech keyboard and one set of keys; the ones that came with my filco. So I really have no idea what the difference between thick or thin keys is (other than one is thick and one is thinner lol) and just generally what makes different keys more desirable than others.

[AKIMbO]

People have an unfounded assumption that thickness equates to quality.  Thicker keycaps make clicky switches sound different, but honestly that's about it.   

[neeb]

People have an unfounded assumption that thickness equates to quality.  Thicker keycaps make clicky switches sound different, but honestly that's about it.   

I see. So maybe for the more keycap connoisseur the thickness (and assumed quality) of the older keycaps is more desirable but for the more average user it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to get a set?

[AKIMbO]

People have an unfounded assumption that thickness equates to quality.  Thicker keycaps make clicky switches sound different, but honestly that's about it.   

I see. So maybe for the more keycap connoisseur the thickness (and assumed quality) of the older keycaps is more desirable but for the more average user it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to get a set?

It's really up to you.  If you dig the look of a certain old set of doubleshots you should get them.  Cherry blues are a million times better with thick keycaps imo.

[thegunner100]

Agreed, the reduced travel distance and sound pitch is very nice with mx blues.

[neeb]

Are the keys that are purchased in doubleshot group buys usually of the same thickness and quality that older keycaps are? like the ones from the old cherry boards or w/e

[AKIMbO]

Only some.  If the group buy is for imsto thick or cherry thick keycaps then yes.  If the keycaps are coming from SP (signature plastics) then they are thin. 

[neeb]

Only some.  If the group buy is for imsto thick or cherry thick keycaps then yes.  If the keycaps are coming from SP (signature plastics) then they are thin. 

Gotcha. Thanks a lot for the help guys

[hashbaz]

The fetish for keycap thickness is mostly unfounded IMO.  I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.  If there was a doubleshot set with a more modern font (Wyse doesn't count), I would love that too.

I actually really dislike Cherry keys on blue switches.  Makes them feel heavy and unresponsive.  Thin PBT is where it's at for blues.

[neeb]

The fetish for keycap thickness is mostly unfounded IMO.  I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.  If there was a doubleshot set with a more modern font (Wyse doesn't count), I would love that too.

I actually really dislike Cherry keys on blue switches.  Makes them feel heavy and unresponsive.  Thin PBT is where it's at for blues.

I guess it really does just comes down to personal preference, it just seemed like the majority of geekhack members preferred the double shots but maybe not everyone does

[TheProfosist]

The fetish for keycap thickness is mostly unfounded IMO.  I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.  If there was a doubleshot set with a more modern font (Wyse doesn't count), I would love that too.

I actually really dislike Cherry keys on blue switches.  Makes them feel heavy and unresponsive.  Thin PBT is where it's at for blues.

I guess it really does just comes down to personal preference, it just seemed like the majority of geekhack members preferred the double shots but maybe not everyone does

id PBT dyesub is where its at thing is there are just a ton less options.

[tsangan]

The fetish for keycap thickness is mostly unfounded IMO.  I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.  If there was a doubleshot set with a more modern font (Wyse doesn't count), I would love that too.

I actually really dislike Cherry keys on blue switches.  Makes them feel heavy and unresponsive.  Thin PBT is where it's at for blues.

I guess it really does just comes down to personal preference, it just seemed like the majority of geekhack members preferred the double shots but maybe not everyone does

id PBT dyesub is where its at thing is there are just a ton less options.

Hence why old Cherry PBT dyesubs are even more desirable

[Findecanor]

Agreed, the reduced travel distance and sound pitch is very nice with mx blues.

The travel distance is not reduced. I suppose that what you are thinking of is that the profile of Cherry's caps is lower than the "OEM profile" of other contemporary mechanical keyboards. There is slightly less wobble in the keys simply because they are lower -- there is less of a lever effect.

I think that the interest in Cherry doubleshots did come a couple of years ago partly as a reaction to Filco's key caps. Filco Majestouch line came before there was such a plethora of mechanical gaming keyboards. Filco's caps are high OEM profile, thin-walled and the lettering is pad-printed which means that it wears off relatively easy.
In comparison to those caps, on a Filco with Cherry's thick doubleshot caps, the keys will wobble less, have less noise and the lettering will never wear off.

I use mostly Cherry keys: Thick doubleshot ABS, thin lasered PBT, thick lasered PBT and thick lasered POM on different keyboards. I prefer thicker keys on MX Blues and MX Clears, but thin PBT keys on MX Browns. I can't really say why. Thick double-shot keys on MX Browns just feels weird for me...

BTW. Signature Plastics' doubleshot keys are as low as Cherry's (although not exactly the same profile) and they are doubleshot, but they are thin-walled.
Whether you will like it or not is up to you. Feel is subjective.

[phetto]

I would like to say that its just cooler!

[poopmat]

ive tried several of the kbc pbt kits but found them very hard to read
just yesterday i got a set of cherry doubleshots from the classifieds here and i love them
they are legible as hell and since i occasionally look down when i type it helps my old eyes
and the font is alot nicer
now to find a wyse set

[hazeluff]

The fetish for keycap thickness is mostly unfounded IMO.  I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.  If there was a doubleshot set with a more modern font (Wyse doesn't count), I would love that too.

I actually really dislike Cherry keys on blue switches.  Makes them feel heavy and unresponsive.  Thin PBT is where it's at for blues.

I guess it really does just comes down to personal preference, it just seemed like the majority of geekhack members preferred the double shots but maybe not everyone does

Its really personal preferences. = )

Tho I think the majority like thick things and PBT things. doubleshots are a close 2nd.

[IvanIvanovich]

I prefer Cherry profile, and the old doubleshot and dyesub ones just look a lot nicer than the lasered ones. I generally don't pay anywhere near as much as new sets cost for them either.

[dorkvader]

Agreed, the reduced travel distance and sound pitch is very nice with mx blues.

The travel distance is not reduced. I suppose that what you are thinking of is that the profile of Cherry's caps is lower than the "OEM profile" of other contemporary mechanical keyboards. There is slightly less wobble in the keys simply because they are lower -- there is less of a lever effect.

I would say that this is true, except for the F and J keys. Since they have almost no stem, they seem to wobble a bit more for me. I don't really mind it, though.

Thick doubleshots are better because it'll take you a lot longer to completely wear though them. They should also be more durable if you drop one by mistake. That's about it for me.

[neeb]

I think that the interest in Cherry doubleshots did come a couple of years ago partly as a reaction to Filco's key caps. Filco Majestouch line came before there was such a plethora of mechanical gaming keyboards. Filco's caps are high OEM profile, thin-walled and the lettering is pad-printed which means that it wears off relatively easy.
In comparison to those caps, on a Filco with Cherry's thick doubleshot caps, the keys will wobble less, have less noise and the lettering will never wear off.

That makes sense to me. I haven't had my filco for that long and a couple of the keys are already missing half-ish of the letter on them, they don't seem to last very long

[dorkvader]

I think that the interest in Cherry doubleshots did come a couple of years ago partly as a reaction to Filco's key caps. Filco Majestouch line came before there was such a plethora of mechanical gaming keyboards. Filco's caps are high OEM profile, thin-walled and the lettering is pad-printed which means that it wears off relatively easy.
In comparison to those caps, on a Filco with Cherry's thick doubleshot caps, the keys will wobble less, have less noise and the lettering will never wear off.

That makes sense to me. I haven't had my filco for that long and a couple of the keys are already missing half-ish of the letter on them, they don't seem to last very long

It does depend on the person. I don't know why, but I suspect some users' hands are more acidic than others, causing premature wear. Good thing replacements (And PBT) aren't too expensive.

[neeb]

I think that the interest in Cherry doubleshots did come a couple of years ago partly as a reaction to Filco's key caps. Filco Majestouch line came before there was such a plethora of mechanical gaming keyboards. Filco's caps are high OEM profile, thin-walled and the lettering is pad-printed which means that it wears off relatively easy.
In comparison to those caps, on a Filco with Cherry's thick doubleshot caps, the keys will wobble less, have less noise and the lettering will never wear off.

That makes sense to me. I haven't had my filco for that long and a couple of the keys are already missing half-ish of the letter on them, they don't seem to last very long

It does depend on the person. I don't know why, but I suspect some users' hands are more acidic than others, causing premature wear. Good thing replacements (And PBT) aren't too expensive.

I could see that being the case. So as far as durability alone goes, the best keycaps would be PBT double shots with PBT dye subs in 2nd?

[dorkvader]

PBT double shots don't exist (though I heard a rumor that Vortex wants to make some. It's Vortex, so take that with a large grain of salt. Even if they had prototypes now, they'd announce it later, and after we order, we'd see it in 2015 or so) mainly because they have a much greater shrinkage than ABS. Since PBT is also more brittle, I suspect that even if they didn't shrink as much, it'd cause them to shatter under the stress.

So since PBT doubleshots don't exist, the best is Dye-Sublimated PBT. Even people who wear through "normal" keycaps (anh put 2billion+ keystrokes into a model M) take some time to wear through the Dyesub PBT found on IBM keyboards. Even my ancient model F from January of 1984 shows pretty much no wear on the keycaps.

POM is also pretty good, though some don't like it's "slick" texture. I rather enjoy it for lighter switches. My POM set, is lasered, so I don't expect it to last as long, my hands (for whatever reason) aren't really abrasive or acidic or whatever, so I don't really get any wear on any of mine.

[neeb]

PBT double shots don't exist (though I heard a rumor that Vortex wants to make some. It's Vortex, so take that with a large grain of salt. Even if they had prototypes now, they'd announce it later, and after we order, we'd see it in 2015 or so) mainly because they have a much greater shrinkage than ABS. Since PBT is also more brittle, I suspect that even if they didn't shrink as much, it'd cause them to shatter under the stress.

So since PBT doubleshots don't exist, the best is Dye-Sublimated PBT. Even people who wear through "normal" keycaps (anh put 2billion+ keystrokes into a model M) take some time to wear through the Dyesub PBT found on IBM keyboards. Even my ancient model F from January of 1984 shows pretty much no wear on the keycaps.

POM is also pretty good, though some don't like it's "slick" texture. I rather enjoy it for lighter switches. My POM set, is lasered, so I don't expect it to last as long, my hands (for whatever reason) aren't really abrasive or acidic or whatever, so I don't really get any wear on any of mine.

I see, thank you for clearing that up. I didn't find that information on the stuff I've been reading about plastic types and printing methods.

I'm sure it'll be a while before I know which exact keycaps (and switches for that matter) I like best but at least now I have a better idea of where I should start

[sherryton]

Only ABS keys can be two-shot molded because it won't shrink as much against other plastics.

The keys on a Filco are also ABS, but it is through the pad printing process which is why the legends wear off. 

[bounce]

Hm, i found an old cherry mx black keyboard in my basement and now i wonder what kind of keycaps these are.
Is there a way to identify the different production types?
I tried using them on my SS7g but they dont seem to fit in perfectly because of the different layout of the SS
and the old keycaps are of a different height.

[fohat.digs]

Put a drop on acetone on the inside of a key cap and swirl it around with a toothpick. It will evaporate almost immediately.

If it makes a little scar, the cap is ABS. If it survives intact, it is probably PBT.

[tipo33]

For me it is partly about the age, and in some cases rarity of the keycaps.  I've worked on computers for 11 years and keyboards are one of the two things that don't "get old" ( the other being cases ).  I like the nostalgia behind using stuff that came with and in some cases represented older computers.

[GeorgeK]

I definitely prefer doubleshots - I have two filcos both with browns, one with OEM caps and one with doubleshots and much prefer the doubleshot caps - the lower profile is lovely.  How can you tell the age of the doubleshots btw?  I bought the board with the doubleshots on.

[fruktstund]

I use Cherry keys because I love the font and the clean, high-contrast look of 2-shots.

This is exactly what I had thought of saying.

I don't really care too much about the profile and thickness myself, even though I definitely prefer Cherry profile and thick walls.

The biggest problem for me with doubleshots is that they're ABS, and get shiny after some use. Looks worse when it's less glossy, but I primarily dislike the feel of shiny keycaps. My sweaty fingers tend to stick to the keys a lot, which just doesn't feel nice. I much prefer the texture of my PBT caps!
Thinking of trying out sandblasting the keys though. We'll see.

[dorkvader]

Put a drop on acetone on the inside of a key cap and swirl it around with a toothpick. It will evaporate almost immediately.

If it makes a little scar, the cap is ABS. If it survives intact, it is probably PBT.

I use one of those ear mangler things that everyone has to clean out your ears, but aren't supposed to use.

Also, if you check the bottom, and there are two colours there, then it's definitely doubleshot ABS.

[bounce]

They are doubleshots then with a lower profile so oldschool cherry doubleshots
cuz they have grey and black stripes on the inside.