Sound damping a Matias Tactile Pro

[tufty]

So, while I'm working out what do do in terms of making a split board, I need to think about my existing 'board, because I'm moving my mac into a shared space, and my wife isn't too keen on sharing with the machine-gun noise of me typing on my tactile pro.  I can't understand why, but she keeps making comments about "not being able to hear herself think".

So, anyway, it's a white Mac-specific  Matias, model SMK-POWER989.  I'm not too worried about modding the case (it arrived with a couple of cracks around the casing clips, and it's lost a rear foot over the years), and I have the gear to make an entirely new one (probably composite/wood with more acoustic mass and less resonant cavities) if necessary. 

It seems to me, though, that a good start would be to damp the bottoming out sound of the switches (and especially the spacebar).  The "click" of the keys isn't too harsh, if it were just that I could probably convince madam that it's OK, but the bottoming-out sound really rings.  I'm not quite sure how to go about doing this, though.  Any ideas?

After that I'll probably look at adding some mass to the PCB and reducing the case resonance, but that's for later.

thanks in advance

Simon

[Quarzac]

Try modding it to dampened cream alps? Or ask your wife to stick it out for a bit, and mod it to Matias's new tactile dampened switches. Alternatively, you could just buy one of Matias's new dampened boards. Otherwise, if you're adverse to all that, maybe try laying some soft foam in the bottom of the case?

[tufty]

Weeeeeeelll...

I was trying to avoid having to swap out the keymechs if at all possible - if I'm gonna start soldering and desoldering, I'm not sticking with a keyboard design that was anachronistic 50 years before the first electronic computer was built.

Plus, I'm cheap. /very/ cheap.

Thanks, though.

[Burz]

I think trying to dampen a clicky Alps board is a lost cause. More sound is coming from the clicker inside the switch than you probably think. But you can inexpensively try putting O rings on the caps to see if that helps.

If I HAD to make a serious crack at it, though, I would infill the caps with some kind of lightweight putty compound or caulking or foam to prevent them from acting as sound resonators (while keeping clear of the mounting post, of course).

[tufty]

Thanks.  Do you think the O-ring approach has a chance of working with Alps keys?  I'm aware I'm not going to get rid of the click, but the click isn't the issue, really:

Here's a couple of samples, 2 hits on each key, and then 2 bottoming out, repeated.  I did the "a" key and the space bar...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/77526313/A-key.wav
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/77526313/Space%20bar.wav

If I can get rid of the bottoming-out noise, that would probably be enough to appease "she who must be obeyed".  I'll probably have a shot at damping the keycaps as well.

Simon

[Matias]

If I can get rid of the bottoming-out noise, that would probably be enough to appease "she who must be obeyed".  I'll probably have a shot at damping the keycaps as well.

Well, if it were me , I'd buy some of the new switches (or buy a cheap AEKII off eBay) and harvest the dampened sliders.  I'd then replace the Tactile Pro sliders with the dampened ones you harvested.  That requires no soldering at all, and kills the bottoming out noise, and the topping out noise.

[tufty]

If I can get rid of the bottoming-out noise, that would probably be enough to appease "she who must be obeyed".  I'll probably have a shot at damping the keycaps as well.

Well, if it were me , I'd buy some of the new switches (or buy a cheap AEKII off eBay) and harvest the dampened sliders.  I'd then replace the Tactile Pro sliders with the dampened ones you harvested.  That requires no soldering at all, and kills the bottoming out noise, and the topping out noise.

Now, there's something I wasn't expecting.  Response from the manufacturer.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for producing the tactile pro in the first place.  It's a wonderful board, and has done amazing service.

I had a quick shufty through the thread on the new Matias switches, and was pleasantly surprised by the price you were quoting.  No, make that *very* pleasantly surprised,  I was expecting about ten times that price, it's probably something to do with being a Mac user... which, of course, has convinced me not to bother buggering about trying O-rings and so on, but to buy a bunch 'o switches.  I was unable to find anywhere on your site to buy a bagful, though.

Swapping the mechanisms involves swapping out the slider and click leaf, if I've understood correctly - is that right?

Simon

[laffindude]

You can use the hassle of swapping as an excuse to just buy a new Quiet Pro. I mean, it is for the sanity of your other half

[tufty]

I was unable to find anywhere on your site to buy a bagful, though.

Rereading the other thread, I realise that this makes me sound like a total tool, viz:

The switch production run is done.  Just waiting for the shipment to arrive...

Anyroadup, I'll be in for a bag of 200 as soon as they are available.

You can use the hassle of swapping as an excuse to just buy a new Quiet Pro. I mean, it is for the sanity of your other half

Well-acquainted with the humours of french women you are not, young padawan

Simon

[laffindude]

It is part of my counter to designer handbags and shoes.

[Matias]

If I can get rid of the bottoming-out noise, that would probably be enough to appease "she who must be obeyed".  I'll probably have a shot at damping the keycaps as well.

Well, if it were me , I'd buy some of the new switches (or buy a cheap AEKII off eBay) and harvest the dampened sliders.  I'd then replace the Tactile Pro sliders with the dampened ones you harvested.  That requires no soldering at all, and kills the bottoming out noise, and the topping out noise.

Now, there's something I wasn't expecting.  Response from the manufacturer.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for producing the tactile pro in the first place.  It's a wonderful board, and has done amazing service.

Happy to serve... 

I had a quick shufty through the thread on the new Matias switches, and was pleasantly surprised by the price you were quoting.  No, make that *very* pleasantly surprised,  I was expecting about ten times that price, it's probably something to do with being a Mac user... which, of course, has convinced me not to bother buggering about trying O-rings and so on, but to buy a bunch 'o switches.  I was unable to find anywhere on your site to buy a bagful, though.

We're still a few weeks away from releasing them, but I'll be posting an announcement when we do.  If you'd like to be notified with an email, send a message to help@matias.ca and ask to be added to the waiting list for a switch purchase.

Swapping the mechanisms involves swapping out the slider and click leaf, if I've understood correctly - is that right?

Yes, that's pretty much it, though you need to be careful with keys that have balance bars (stabilizers) -- anything 2 key widths or wider.

[TheQsanity]

Soooo... When are you guys coming out with a complicated or simplified White Clicky Alps for Windows?

[Matias]

Soooo... When are you guys coming out with a complicated or simplified White Clicky Alps for Windows?

There's a good chance next year.  It depends on how well the other PC models sell, and how many resellers we sign up.  We'd love to do them if the customers are out there.

[Burz]

Soooo... When are you guys coming out with a complicated or simplified White Clicky Alps for Windows?

There's a good chance next year.  It depends on how well the other PC models sell, and how many resellers we sign up.  We'd love to do them if the customers are out there.

You should think about adding a Mac/PC switch to your keyboards. It would simplify the purchase decision for a lot of people, make you look less like a Mac-specific vendor, and maybe allow supporting media keys for PC as well as Mac. You could implement it in firmware.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You should think about adding a Mac/PC switch to your keyboards.

Art Lebedev tried that: they fitted OLED panels inside each of their oversized Cherry ML-based keys so that you can switch the layout dynamically. Nowhere as practical as it is pretty.

The other trick is to hire the Doctor to whiz back in time and bang together the heads of whichever numpties it was who decided that Macs and PCs couldn't just share the same legends. (Although the Quiet Pro PC is one RHS modifier short — maybe I really am the only person on the planet who actually uses the context menu and right Windows keys?)

You can reverse the modifier keys easily enough, but it won't make the keys do what the keycaps say they do.

[Matias]

Soooo... When are you guys coming out with a complicated or simplified White Clicky Alps for Windows?

There's a good chance next year.  It depends on how well the other PC models sell, and how many resellers we sign up.  We'd love to do them if the customers are out there.

You should think about adding a Mac/PC switch to your keyboards. It would simplify the purchase decision for a lot of people, make you look less like a Mac-specific vendor, and maybe allow supporting media keys for PC as well as Mac. You could implement it in firmware.

If it were only that simple...  :-)

Mac and PC users also have different colour preferences.  Mac users like White or Silver & Black -- to match the colour of their systems.  PC users like black.

Mac users have a different standard layout and the function keys work differently, with no comparable functions on the PC side.  Any conflicts would bring countless customer service headaches.  Mac users also like having Option-symbols printed on the keys.

In the end, we decided that the best solution was to do separate versions for PC and Mac.  We've done custom versions occasionally for individual customers, but releasing those as standard models would only lead to some customers getting less than they expected.

[furosuto81]

Other than the key legends being a bit different, the Windows/Command & Alt/Option keys are flipped when using a PC keyboard with a Mac. Fortunately, you can easily flip them around in the Keyboard Pref Panel on OS X. No need for a hardware/firmware switch. The F-key functions will work in OS X even though there aren't any mac-centric labels.

Background: I've been using PC keyboards on my mac for years via a KVM, and later, a USB switcher. I also used a AEKII on work PCs via an iMate ADB to USB converter until I got my MQP.

[tufty]

So, whilst waiting for matias to clear their actual moneymaking backlog and open up switch sales to geeks, I decided to do something.

Step 1 - rip the keyboard out of its case. A bit nerve-wracking, but easy enough to do and results in a halving of noise levels (literally, a 3db drop), and a moving of tone from hollow echo to a definite clicking.
Step 1.5 - clean 5 years of crud from under the keys. Ugh.
Step 2 - having a raw unprotected circuitboard on my desk worries me. Cut a piece of 5mm ply to size, and taper evenly to 1mm at the front using angle grinder / flap disc combo. Then lay down 2mm of silicone caulk, smooth roughly, humidify (polymerisation requires h2o which is usually pulled from the air), put a sheet of polythene over the top, position keyboard assembly over that, apply weight and leave for 24 hours. After it's all set, we have a silicone sheet that's moulded to the circuit board. Sonically speaking, not much (1db drop, off the higher frequencies)

I need to manufacture a cover for the top of the board (usb ports, power key etc) but it's already better. With matias' new keymechs, it should be wonderful.

[Matias]

So, whilst waiting for matias to clear their actual moneymaking backlog and open up switch sales to geeks, I decided to do something.

Step 1 - rip the keyboard out of its case. A bit nerve-wracking, but easy enough to do and results in a halving of noise levels (literally, a 3db drop), and a moving of tone from hollow echo to a definite clicking.
Step 1.5 - clean 5 years of crud from under the keys. Ugh.
Step 2 - having a raw unprotected circuitboard on my desk worries me. Cut a piece of 5mm ply to size, and taper evenly to 1mm at the front using angle grinder / flap disc combo. Then lay down 2mm of silicone caulk, smooth roughly, humidify (polymerisation requires h2o which is usually pulled from the air), put a sheet of polythene over the top, position keyboard assembly over that, apply weight and leave for 24 hours. After it's all set, we have a silicone sheet that's moulded to the circuit board. Sonically speaking, not much (1db drop, off the higher frequencies)

I need to manufacture a cover for the top of the board (usb ports, power key etc) but it's already better. With matias' new keymechs, it should be wonderful.

Sounds interesting!

Would you mind posting photos?  I'd love to see what you've done so far.

Best regards, and thanks for your comments.

[Matias]

Other than the key legends being a bit different, the Windows/Command & Alt/Option keys are flipped when using a PC keyboard with a Mac. Fortunately, you can easily flip them around in the Keyboard Pref Panel on OS X. No need for a hardware/firmware switch. The F-key functions will work in OS X even though there aren't any mac-centric labels.

Yes, this is very true and we've recommended this option for keyboards that we don't make specific Mac versions of.

However, these days, not all users are technically sophisticated.  There's no better user experience than plugging something in and having it work immediately and as expected.  For this reason (if the sales numbers justify it) we will always do a separate Mac version.

Background: I've been using PC keyboards on my mac for years via a KVM, and later, a USB switcher. I also used a AEKII on work PCs via an iMate ADB to USB converter until I got my MQP.

I've heard similar stories from quite a few customers.

The Quiet Pro is the closest there is to the AEKII, with the bonus of the more consistent tactile feel of the new switches.  The AEKII is great -- if you've got a good copy.  I'm constantly amazed at how much variability there is between different AEKII copies, to the point where they feel like entirely different products.

[iBro]

You could also buy a Silicon Graphics AT101. I'm typing on one right now and I love it. It uses dampened cream alps. Even Mr. Interface at deskthority says that his Matias Quiet Pro feels extremely similar to the SiG.

[tufty]

Sounds interesting!

Would you mind posting photos?  I'd love to see what you've done so far.

Best regards, and thanks for your comments.

Sure.  I'll see if I can make time to take some piccies tomorrow.  I'm stilt not at that magical "wife is happy with the noise it makes" place yet, but we're getting there.

[furosuto81]

Matias: The new switches are based on the simplified ALPS mechanism right? Just click leaf vs dampening & no click leaf, right? Would there be any way to tell them apart just by looking?

[Matias]

Matias: The new switches are based on the simplified ALPS mechanism right?

Correct.

Just click leaf vs dampening & no click leaf, right?

They both have a click leaf, but the dampened switch's click leaf is a little different.  It's held stationary to reduce noise.

Would there be any way to tell them apart just by looking?

If you look closely, you can see the rubber dampener in the quiet switch...

[TheQsanity]

Are the complicated alps a dead switch? Will they never come back due to the price of making them or some other reason?