Armchair Research Thread: New Form Factors/Layouts/Features

[FoxWolf1]

Now with more organization! Images have been consolidated into categorized links in the first post. Also, note that going forwards, new designs are likely to be added without any "bump" to the thread.

Note that categorized ideas are listed from oldest to newest. So the ones furthest down in each category are likely to be the most "evolved", but may occasionally say "see previous" for feature explanations.

So I thought it would be neat to have a thread for coming up with new keyboard shapes and discussing their practical advantages and disadvantages. Here are some I came up with:

NEWEST (usually the best):
95-key with TrackPoint

Mainstream/General Use
1m. TKL-sized but high-featured
2m. Ultra-high-feature "Battleship"
3m. TK with some extras
4m. For use with PC and Smartphone
5m. For work and life
6m. Slightly tweaked TKL
7m. Autocomplete keyboard
8m. General use incl. TrackBall
9m. Economical TKL with TrackPoint
10m. TK with TrackBall for work
11m. Better TKL with TrackPoint

Gaming/Gaming-Oriented Mainstream
1g. Gaming-oriented "TK" left-10key variant
2g. High-feature gaming "TK"
3g. Tweaked full-size with 10key module
4g. Premium gaming
5g. Premium gaming, TKL variant
6g. Premium gaming, TKL variant, v2
7g. Mid-range modular for gaming
8g. Gaming flagship model
9g. Ugly but potent gaming flagship
10g. Backlit gaming TKL
11g. Compact for gaming
12g. Backlit gaming TKL, premium++

Ultra-Compact/Ergonomic/Niche/Enthusiast
1s. Compact, speed+convenience optimization
2s. Non-staggered, with some ergonomics tweaks
3s. Premium modular ergonomic

Feel free to post your own and/or discuss.

[tobydeemer]

I would totally buy the "battleship" or the "compact speedy input" one. Opposite ends of the spectrum I guess. Either way, only with tactile Alps. :-D

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You should meet your new friend the Crop command. Ctrl+Shift+Y in IrfanView is better as it removes the entire blank area around an image.

I find it strange that people market reverse keyboards as "left-handed" when the existing layout is ideal for left-handed people, while the "left-handed" layout is what right-handed people need: mouse on the right, alpha area in the middle, other groups on the left.

A compromise would be number pad on the left, arrows on the right, to keep the keyboard central, and put both clusters within relatively easy reach.

Did you see the DSI modular Mac? The main fault with the Modular Mac is that it's far too bulky. If you can slim that down, à la KMAC modular number pad, you could solve some of your problems above by having a number of interchangeable modules suitable for both left and right attachment. That would drastically simplify manufacture and logistics in terms of being able to use one or two standard alpha modules (PCBs, plates and cases) for most models. I guess if the moulding is cheap, you could still have multiple PCBs and plates inside even from the outside it's a single case, and just have internal USB A-B wiring between boards, keeps the circuitry totally modular.

[FoxWolf1]

I actually came close to buying one of DSI's ALPS left-handers a while back, but when I thought about it, the interest wore off pretty fast. It seems like a nice layout at first, but I think people dislike the idea of using the arrow keys and a number pad with their non-dominant hand-- especially the number pad, since that's there for reasons of input speed and ergonomics in the first place. Another thing I realized about the left-handed layout is that, since it's still as wide overall as a normal full-size keyboard, if you want to gain an advantage over a normal full-size in terms of mouse ergonomics, you need to let the keyboard stick out to the left. That would mean the left side of the keyboard would be sticking out of the natural "peripherals area" on your desk created by the width of your monitor, and may require space that isn't actually available.

Modularity might have a bit more promise, but I feel like it's one of those things where people praise the idea but really wouldn't want the bother of actually taking advantage of it. Also, the connections between modules is a natural weak point; if you look at Azio Mech5 reviews, for instance, problems with the connection between the numberpad module and the main keyboard are common. I would rather like it if there were more modular keyboards, especially "serious"-looking ones, but my gut tells me that overall, the elegance of a well-balanced non-modular "compromise" will ultimately outweigh the greater flexibility of a modular design. Anyway, for anything except serious gaming, if your goal is to bring the hands closer together for better ergonomics and improved task-switching speed, no amount of narrowness will ever beat having a TrackPoint, since with one of those, you don't even have to take your mouse hand out of typing position .

[davkol]

That "left-handed" layout actually makes ones workspace more symmetric. I think mouse and keypad should be on opposite sides, because when they're on the same side, it's an ergonomic issue if you have the keyboard centered to type comfortably. That's the reason why people prefer tenkeyless.

However, keypad is right hand-centric. If you touch-type on a keypad, your pinkie rests on Enter, thumb's on 0. This is not the case if you try to use your left hand. Left-handed keypad would have to be partly mirrored — with Enter and + on the left side.

[FoxWolf1]

Keypad and mouse are both things that are done with the dominant hand, though. As are arrow keys, for that matter, which is probably how we wound up in this mess...things kept being added to the right side of the keyboard because that would make them used by the right hand. If you want to make the keyboard narrower without forcing the user to use his non-dominant hand for these things, you really only have two options: eliminate functionality (as in TKL or smaller layouts) or condense more functions into a given area (as in 96/"TK" layouts, compact Cherry keyboards, etc.). From my perspective, the second option wins on two fronts: firstly, you don't lose functionality, but secondly, if functions are condensed in a way that is ergonomic, efficient, and intuitive, the result can actually be an increase in comfort and input rate. So the question then becomes what the best way is to do that, which is what I'm trying to figure out (with a few exceptions that I just made for the heck of it, like the enormous one in the first post).

Anyway, if the left-handed thing works for you, then by all means, go for it. But I think a lot of people would be happier with something different.

[davkol]

Keypad and mouse are both things that are done with the dominant hand, though. As are arrow keys, for that matter, which is probably how we wound up in this mess...

Right-handed people use WASD.

If you want to make the keyboard narrower without forcing the user to use his non-dominant hand for these things, you really only have two options: eliminate functionality (as in TKL or smaller layouts) or condense more functions into a given area (as in 96/"TK" layouts, compact Cherry keyboards, etc.). From my perspective, the second option wins on two fronts: firstly, you don't lose functionality, but secondly, if functions are condensed in a way that is ergonomic, efficient, and intuitive, the result can actually be an increase in comfort and input rate. So the question then becomes what the best way is to do that, which is what I'm trying to figure out (with a few exceptions that I just made for the heck of it, like the enormous one in the first post).

Solution exists and is very simple: matrix keyboard with embedded keypad.

By the way, here's a quick diagram comparing how a standard and left-handed keyboard would compare in my setup:

Show Image

As you can see, the mousepad does not move at all when switching to a left-handed keyboard. If anything, it would make things more uncomfortable and asymmetrical, since my left arm would have to be far more scrunched up than my right arm.

When I'm using the computer, I have primary display and alphanumeric part of keyboard right in front of me. Keypad or mouse/trackball are next to it, so my body and hands form a triangle or three sides of a rectangle. Angle > 90 degrees is just wrong.

Anyway, if the left-handed thing works for you, then by all means, go for it. But I think a lot of people would be happier with something different.

Don't forget that lot of people are so conservative that they refuse to change their habits at the cost of their health.

[alaricljs]

davkol... your monitor is not big enough, My TKL is narrower by more than a numpad than my monitor, closer to 2 numpads.  That's not counting the 2nd monitor either

So with my main typing group centered in front of the monitor I have room on either side for a numpad, but I use the space on the right for my trackball.

[FoxWolf1]

Right-handed people use WASD.

For some games, yes, but in those games, the more dextrous hand is almost always already taken by the mouse. In a lot of older games, where the controls are very simple and the vast majority of dexterity demands are placed on movement controls, arrow keys are used rather than WASD, with the left hand handling secondary controls.

Solution exists and is very simple: matrix keyboard with embedded keypad.

I think that is a little too radical for many people. It's one thing to move around side clusters, modifiers, or even the occasional punctuation mark or two-- plenty of laptops do at least this much, and can be adapted to without an overly demanding readjustment period-- and quite another to perform a total overhaul on how all the keys are aligned with one another. Also, within the category of "matrix keyboard", there's still a lot of room for variation on layout configuration, so I wouldn't call it a "solution".

When I'm using the computer, I have primary display and alphanumeric part of keyboard right in front of me. Keypad or mouse/trackball are next to it, so my body and hands form a triangle or three sides of a rectangle. Angle > 90 degrees is just wrong.

The lines in the picture are sort of a combination of arms, shoulders, etc., so I wouldn't read too much into the angles.

Don't forget that lot of people are so conservative that they refuse to change their habits at the cost of their health.

Why do you think these are all in qwerty? When designing a new layout, how well people can adapt is one of the things that has to be taken into account when finding a good "compromise".

[davkol]

davkol... your monitor is not big enough, My TKL is narrower by more than a numpad than my monitor, closer to 2 numpads.  That's not counting the 2nd monitor either

So with my main typing group centered in front of the monitor I have room on either side for a numpad, but I use the space on the right for my trackball.

I use a 30" widescreen as school. ~,^

Solution exists and is very simple: matrix keyboard with embedded keypad.

I think that is a little too radical for many people. It's one thing to move around side clusters, modifiers, or even the occasional punctuation mark or two-- plenty of laptops do at least this much, and can be adapted to without an overly demanding readjustment period-- and quite another to perform a total overhaul on how all the keys are aligned with one another. Also, within the category of "matrix keyboard", there's still a lot of room for variation on layout configuration, so I wouldn't call it a "solution".

It took me about 30 minutes to adjust to keys in a grid. It makes B and Y (on QWERTY) much easier to reach. And I touch type — this would be a non-issue for people who only hunt&peck (majority of people, unfortunately).

Keys such as Enter, Tab, Shift etc. are harder to re-learn, but hey! Keyboards should be programmable, and e.g. Enter&Backspace in the middle of the keyboard are so much better.

With programmable matrix keyboard, there are only few issues (not blockers, though) left: (1) sane way to put stabilized keys on the keyboard; (2) extra thumb modifiers like on Ergo Dox; (3) non-flat keywells like on Kinesis Advantage.

When I'm using the computer, I have primary display and alphanumeric part of keyboard right in front of me. Keypad or mouse/trackball are next to it, so my body and hands form a triangle or three sides of a rectangle. Angle > 90 degrees is just wrong.

The lines in the picture are sort of a combination of arms, shoulders, etc., so I wouldn't read too much into the angles.

I think my point is still valid. When I type and have to reach for mouse too far, it's bad, m'kay?

[FoxWolf1]

It took me about 30 minutes to adjust to keys in a grid. It makes B and Y (on QWERTY) much easier to reach. And I touch type — this would be a non-issue for people who only hunt&peck (majority of people, unfortunately).

Keys such as Enter, Tab, Shift etc. are harder to re-learn, but hey! Keyboards should be programmable, and e.g. Enter&Backspace in the middle of the keyboard are so much better.

Maybe I'll try working out an "ergonomic" design sometime with non-staggered keys, kind of like a TypeMatrix but with some shape and layout tweaks, and provisions for more features. Could be a fun project...

That said, I still think something so non-standard will struggle to find acceptance with people who are not specifically seeking an "ergonomic keyboard". People seem to have temper tantrums about things that require much smaller amounts of readjustment. One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people (myself included) "touch type" with a style that is non-standard, but which works...on a regular keyboard. When you start optimizing a keyboard for standard touch-typing, you wind up with a product that would require a significant percentage of users to completely overhaul how they type. For instance, a "split" layout, whether it's just a matter of shape or if other keys have been put in between two sections of letters (as on a TypeMatrix), is hard to adjust to if you have some keys that you press with an atypical hand, and even harder if (like me) you have some keys on which you sometimes use one hand, and sometimes the other.

Re: Keyboards being programmable, when I am shopping for myself, I tend to agree. In fact, I'm still on the lookout for devices that could take "programmable" to the next level, offering something with power closer to that of AutoHotkey but run on the device itself (with a little ARM32 processor or something-- there are some devices like this, but they're almost always needlessly crippled by the implementation) rather than through software. But my feeling is that we are probably the exceptions rather than the rule here. People like features that are obvious, intuitive to use, and require little or no effort to take advantage of. I won't rule out future designs having a "Pn" button, or even some sort of mouse-style "profile" system, but at the same time, I won't give up on exploring simpler and more accessible ways of giving people what they want.

I think my point is still valid. When I type and have to reach for mouse too far, it's bad, m'kay?

Unless you have free space on the left of where your keyboard is now, you have to reach just as far with the left-handed keyboard, because the width is the same. That's what the picture is supposed to show.

[davkol]

Re: Keyboards being programmable, when I am shopping for myself, I tend to agree. In fact, I'm still on the lookout for devices that could take "programmable" to the next level, offering something with power closer to that of AutoHotkey but run on the device itself (with a little ARM32 processor or something-- there are some devices like this, but they're almost always needlessly crippled by the implementation) rather than through software.

Do you mean something like Arduino?

Unless you have free space on the left of where your keyboard is now, you have to reach just as far with the left-handed keyboard, because the width is the same. That's what the picture is supposed to show.

I don't get it.

Anyway, incremental changes seem to be a great idea, but it's probably not how the reality works. Variations of staggered QWERTY keyboards have been around for far too long, they've even survived the rise of (personal) computers. It's time for a change.

[alaricljs]

Re: Keyboards being programmable, when I am shopping for myself, I tend to agree. In fact, I'm still on the lookout for devices that could take "programmable" to the next level, offering something with power closer to that of AutoHotkey but run on the device itself (with a little ARM32 processor or something-- there are some devices like this, but they're almost always needlessly crippled by the implementation) rather than through software.

hasu's tmk firmware has a number of conversion options using the teensy or other MCU products.  He's still working on USB->USB, but it is very much programmable

[FoxWolf1]

A while back, I had a mouse that pretty much blew everything else I've used before or since out of the water in terms of balance between extreme power and ease of use...a GWS Omnimouse. With an STM32 microcontroller and IDI, it could basically do anything...custom gestures, chords, timed/multipress, stuff that runs constantly, whatever. It even had a USB input filter that would let it take over the keyboard. On top of all that, it came with a macro-building tool that made taking advantage of everything quite easy.

The Omnimouse did, however, have a couple of flaws. For one, the sensor was useless. Build quality was nonexistent; it started coming apart as soon as I got it, and even though it was easy to fix at first (having been designed with user repairs in mind), over time, the deterioration got worse and worse until, a few months after initial purchase, it suffered massive and irreparable structural failure, and that was that.

So I moved on, and for a while, everything was OK, but I started to miss being able to have devices just kinda...do whatever. I started to look around for software solutions, but there always seemed to be some issue; either a compatibility problem, instability, difficulty of use...there was always something. Then I remembered that the company that made the Omnimouse had a product that was basically a little processor in a box with a USB connector...the idea being that the USB filter would be installed to "catch" mouse and keyboard input, and then the processor would run IDI scripts. So I bought one...only to find that my mouse and keyboard were both somehow non-standard in their reports, and therefore were not compatible. So it went back.

But anyway, yeah, that's basically what I want...except that it should work.

Anyway, incremental changes seem to be a great idea, but it's probably not how the reality works. Variations of staggered QWERTY keyboards have been around for far too long, they've even survived the rise of (personal) computers. It's time for a change.

Unfortunately, you don't get any points/sales/kudos for giving people what they ought to want, only what they do want. Something it took me far too long to learn...but that's another story .

But just for the hell of it, here's something compact with non-staggered keys: (moved to first post)

[davkol]

Unfortunately, you don't get any points/sales/kudos for giving people what they ought to want, only what they do want. Something it took me far too long to learn...but that's another story .

You're right from the traditional business perspective. However, I don't know about you, but I'm not doing business here.

BTW do you think Maltron would be Maltron we can see today, if it was marketed towards masses?

But just for the hell of it, here's something compact with non-staggered keys:

Show Image

This _does_ look interesting! But there are some pitfalls... e.g. number row shouldn't be moved so much to the left.

[FoxWolf1]

Yeah, that number row...

For a while, I considered shifting either =/+ or -/_ to the left side; that would get the numbers a bit more centered, and would also allow the number pad to be moved one to the right (because, if the integrated number pad overlaps with the number row, the numbers have to match, or you'll confuse the heck out of the user), which would reduce the amount of hand shift required. Alternatively, I could move both of them to the left, and shift the number pad over by two, which would also make it more reasonable to do away with the special backspace and enter keys for fn mode.

As it is now, though, it's actually in the exact same place and order as it always is; it just seems to have been moved to the left because everything else has moved. Also, I figured it was more intuitive to have + and - together.

I wasn't quite sure which option would be best, so I decided to play it safe and go with the one that involves the least messing with the layout. But it's certainly something that could be moved around.

As for the business perspective thing...*shrug* I guess it's just how I try and make myself think.

[davkol]

Centered number row feels more natural to me (maybe it's because I use TypeMatrix, but nevermind). I'd keep it centered, and make Backspace _vertical_ (one half on number row, the other one instead of upper row of big-ass Enter).

I've just noticed empty corners. It sounds like an interesting idea, but I can't agree with it. First of all, I can't use non-split keyboard without slightly bending my wrists (one-key-wide gap in the middle would be enough, but that's not the point of this layout), so this argument isn't really relevant at least for me. Moreover, some people press Ctrl with their palm — or you can always move whole wrist (which is necessary to press keys such as = or ` anyway).

[FoxWolf1]

Okay, that's good to know about the number row.

I'm starting to get the feeling that there are a LOT of different ways of pressing the control key. I actually wind up using my thumb on it a lot of the time, but then, my typing style is kind of weird that way...I wind up using my left thumb for a, s, d, z, x, c, Control, Win, and Alt, unless I'm typing capital letters, in which case the thumb folds over onto Shift and either the first or second finger presses the letter. But a lot of people press it with their little finger (I barely ever use my left little finger while typing), while other people hit it with the side of their hand or their palm. The "little finger" group, I think, is where there stands to be the most benefit from eliminating the lower corners, though thumb users would also benefit from not having to twist around as much. The palm/side people...well, I can barely even do it that way without squishing a bunch of other keys, let alone find a way of making it comfortable, so I really have no idea what would be best for such people. An enormous, hanging-down control key that could be pressed with the heel of the hand, maybe?

[FoxWolf1]

Did some reorganization...everything is now a link in the first post rather than an image.

Added a few, too.