Does anyone else find that Topre boards...

[macguy80]

...take quite a while to get used to?

After using my stock *awful* Apple crud-magnet keyboard, I finally unearthed my Topre 45g 87U after moving, and find myself making typo after typo, not to mention hitting caps lock almost EVERY time that I mean to type a letter "a" (which makes me miss Apple's Caps Lock keys that actually LOCKED down, and took a little more force to activate.)

I am wondering if the transition would have been easier with a 55g Topre board, but I feared it would be too heavy, and so went for 45g given EK's return policy and no opportunity to test a 55g board.

I don't yet have any cherry boards, but I wonder if my experience on my 45g Topre would mean that I would also find Cherry browns too light (meaning that I should look at Cherry black instead), or if 45g Cherry is not equal to 45g Topre.

Your thoughts?

[daerid]

Well, my experience has pretty much been the opposite. I've found that I am extremely accurate on Topre boards. I just tried a round on my browns just recently, and came back to the Topre board and it was like a breath of fresh air.

Seems to be an individual thing. I can highly suggest the 55g board though, they are seriously crisp. I'll be selling my 45g board to get another 55g board for work now that they're back in stock at EK.

[rowdy]

Sounds like it is more a case of keyboard layout than spring strength.

Which Apple keyboard was it, btw?  It might have a slightly unusual layout or something.

[macguy80]

The keyboard I'm talking about is this contraption, Apple's last rubber dome. Model A1048

http://www.powerbookmedic.com/xcart1/images/D/apple-keyboard.jpg

The layout really isn't non-standard in any major way that I can see.

I might add that in searching for an image of this board, I nearly fainted when I noticed that, amongst the Google results, there is a youtube video billing this particular keyboard as "Classic"

[macguy80]

Well, my experience has pretty much been the opposite. I've found that I am extremely accurate on Topre boards. I just tried a round on my browns just recently, and came back to the Topre board and it was like a breath of fresh air.

Seems to be an individual thing. I can highly suggest the 55g board though, they are seriously crisp. I'll be selling my 45g board to get another 55g board for work now that they're back in stock at EK.

Sounds like I maybe should have gone with a 55g instead of 45g -- though I'm sure I'll get better at my 45g if I just keep at it for long enough. I do plan to get a Cherry brown board for, um...research purposes, after I get a Matias QuietPro. It's been far too long since I've used an ALPS board.

[rowdy]

I have one of those myself.  It has a broken stabiliser or something under the spacebar, so I never really used it much.  There are a few subtle differences, like the spacebar is wider on the Apple keyboard but set a little further to the right.  The caps lock on the Apple is a tad wider, but is stepped slightly.

And yeah the transparent case shows up all the hairs and other particles that inevitably collect under the keycaps.

[macguy80]

I have one of those myself.  It has a broken stabiliser or something under the spacebar, so I never really used it much.  There are a few subtle differences, like the spacebar is wider on the Apple keyboard but set a little further to the right.  The caps lock on the Apple is a tad wider, but is stepped slightly.

And yeah the transparent case shows up all the hairs and other particles that inevitably collect under the keycaps.

As far as Apple goes, Worst. Keyboard. Ever.

As soon as the MQP arrives, into the dustbin it goes.

If I was *forced* to use a rubber dome Apple board, my choice would be the AppleDesign keyboard (their first rubber dome). It came out my junior year of high school. I HATED it then (for trying to replace the AEK II), but it looks pretty darn good compared to what passes for a pack-in keyboard these days. That I would feel nostalgic for it is quite sad.

http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/collection/articlepics/lc580/snap18.jpg

[rowdy]

Coincidentally I have something that looks like that too, except it is hidden away in the garage somewhere.  I was excited to determine whether it was AEKII, but it was not.  The exact model I cannot now recall.

I also have one of these, which is probably marginally a step above the first one you posted about:

[macguy80]

Coincidentally I have something that looks like that too, except it is hidden away in the garage somewhere.  I was excited to determine whether it was AEKII, but it was not.  The exact model I cannot now recall.

I also have one of these, which is probably marginally a step above the first one you posted about:

Show Image

Ah, yes. The "Apple Pro Keyboard". The immediate predecessor of the one I posted. Given the choice between the two, I'd pick the pro keyboard every time. Why they felt the need to replace it with the crumb magnet, I'll never know. :)

[macguy80]

Coincidentally I have something that looks like that too, except it is hidden away in the garage somewhere.  I was excited to determine whether it was AEKII, but it was not.  The exact model I cannot now recall.

I also have one of these, which is probably marginally a step above the first one you posted about:

Ever use one of these:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Apple_Adjustable_Keyboard.jpg

I had one and somehow lost it. I think by trusting what was labeled on a box.

It didn't have a reputation for reliability, and I never did use it as ergonomically intended, but I do remember it had an excellent key feel, and although I'm sure it's some sort of ALPS switch, it sounded (and felt) different than the AEK II:

[rowdy]

Nope, never used one of those.

[spacecase]

To answer simply. Nope.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I was surprised how stiff and unpleasant I found my brand new Topre variable at first, but once I broke it in/it broke me in, I find that it's the keyboard that I type the most accurately on. That white Apple keyboard though is horrible, but I do have some photos of a little spider (Amaurobius fenestralis or A similis) asleep inside it.)

... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Apple_Adjustable_Keyboard.jpg

... although I'm sure it's some sort of ALPS switch, it sounded (and felt) different than the AEK II ...

Assuming there weren't several variants, then it was one of Alps Electric's lesser-known switches:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/adjustable.htm

Looks like it's a PCB mounted switch — most Alps switches are plate mount, even the ones with rubber domes inside.

There's so much keyboard knowledge trapped on Japanese sites (Kaineko2, Mousefan (above), Sandy55 etc), and Google at least just cannot translate them — you get the most hilarious nonsense come back.

The AEK II used "normal" Alps switches, but they were a special damped variant, the same design (rubber side dampers in the slider) as the new Matias Quiet Switch, which is why it had a different sound and feel. (They're called "cream" switches, but Alps used cream for several things including their latching lock switches. Alps reused colours like there was no tomorrow.)

[linuxid10t]

There's so much keyboard knowledge trapped on Japanese sites (Kaineko2, Mousefan (above), Sandy55 etc), and Google at least just cannot translate them — you get the most hilarious nonsense come back.

Google has gotten a lot better at it.  It used to be unusable, now you can at least get the gist of it.

[macguy80]

I was surprised how stiff and unpleasant I found my brand new Topre variable at first, but once I broke it in/it broke me in, I find that it's the keyboard that I type the most accurately on. That white Apple keyboard though is horrible, but I do have some photos of a little spider (Amaurobius fenestralis or A similis) asleep inside it.)

With regard to the Topre, I think my mistake was going for 45g uniform -- I find it not tactile enough, and that I often end up with unintended keypresses. It sounds like I should have gone 55g uniform. If only I'd known to post here before I got my 87U.

Assuming there weren't several variants, then it was one of Alps Electric's lesser-known switches:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/adjustable.htm

Looks like it's a PCB mounted switch — most Alps switches are plate mount, even the ones with rubber domes inside.

There's so much keyboard knowledge trapped on Japanese sites (Kaineko2, Mousefan (above), Sandy55 etc), and Google at least just cannot translate them — you get the most hilarious nonsense come back.

The AEK II used "normal" Alps switches, but they were a special damped variant, the same design (rubber side dampers in the slider) as the new Matias Quiet Switch, which is why it had a different sound and feel. (They're called "cream" switches, but Alps used cream for several things including their latching lock switches. Alps reused colours like there was no tomorrow.)

Wow, Daniel! I never thought I'd find anyone who could get to the bottom of the Apple Adjustable keyswitch mystery. I *knew* they weren't regular ALPS switches. Makes me want to get another Apple Adjustable. They are so rare, and accordingly expensive when one is found. The odds of finding one complete with the numpad are even smaller. In the meantime, I'll just get the Matias QuietPro, and relive my AEK II

[1391406]

Is there no one here that prefers the original AEK over the AEK II? I have both and find the AEK a far more enjoyable typing experience.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Google has gotten a lot better at it.  It used to be unusable, now you can at least get the gist of it.

I find that Google's translations of Japanese to English still gives me what is essentially random words. It doesn't mean anything. There might be another service that does it better; I just know that Google cannot do it.

With regard to the Topre, I think my mistake was going for 45g uniform -- I find it not tactile enough, and that I often end up with unintended keypresses ...

I find the 45 g perfectly tactile; I don't consider the 35 g switches to be properly tactile, just mushy, but the way they're used on the variable board, it doesn't matter. Topre is almost perfect; the one thing that it just doesn't do, is click.

Wow, Daniel! I never thought I'd find anyone who could get to the bottom of the Apple Adjustable keyswitch mystery …

Ah, see, that's the sort of knowledge only ever found on Japanese sites, in Japanese.

[TotalChaos]

The AEK II used "normal" Alps switches, but they were a special damped variant, the same design (rubber side dampers in the slider) as the new Matias Quiet Switch, which is why it had a different sound and feel. (They're called "cream" switches, but Alps used cream for several things including their latching lock switches. Alps reused colours like there was no tomorrow.)

Are you saying the Matias Quiet Switch is the same switch as the old Alps Cream switch as used in the AEK II?

Or are you saying the Matias Quiet Switch is similar to the old Alps Cream Switch in 1 specific way?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Are you saying the Matias Quiet Switch is the same switch as the old Alps Cream switch as used in the AEK II?

Or are you saying the Matias Quiet Switch is similar to the old Alps Cream Switch in 1 specific way?

The AEK II used damped cream complicated Alps switches. The Matias Quiet Switch is a simplified Alps clone — looks to be based on the Alps simplified design, judging by the only pictures ever taken of its contact mechanism (and they were very fuzzy). It has the same grooves in the slider for rubber dampers that buffer both downstrokes and upstrokes, although they're white dampers instead of the black dampers used in cream Alps.

Due to the way the dye affected the feel of the switch, the sliders are made from undyed white plastic — the Quiet Switch and Click Switch both have white sliders in transparent shells. (The Quiet Switch was going to have an orange slider, not cream, for no reason I know of.)

Switch photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/sets/72157631688113659/ — but no disassembly shots.

[macguy80]

Is there no one here that prefers the original AEK over the AEK II? I have both and find the AEK a far more enjoyable typing experience.

I used to have the original AEK as well. Sadly, I had to give mine up in a recent move (that hurt!). I do hope to be lucky enough to find one again some day. It was the sturdiest keyboard ever built specifically for the Mac

I do have its much lighter sibling, the Apple Standard Keyboard, which gives (almost) the same wonderful sound.

[macguy80]

I find the 45 g perfectly tactile; I don't consider the 35 g switches to be properly tactile, just mushy, but the way they're used on the variable board, it doesn't matter. Topre is almost perfect; the one thing that it just doesn't do, is click.

I'm glad I didn't go for the variable board. Had I known more, I would have gone for a 55g board, but I am sure I will get better at my 45g with use.

Ah, see, that's the sort of knowledge only ever found on Japanese sites, in Japanese.

If I could pick one language to be fluent in, besides my native English, I think it would have to be Japanese

I doubt very seriously Google (or any computer) will ever be able to perfectly master the grammar of any language, Japanese or otherwise, no matter how advanced computers themselves become.

[davkol]

Japanese grammar is actually quite simple. Well, at least much simpler than grammar of any Slavic language, heh.

[macguy80]

Japanese grammar is actually quite simple. Well, at least much simpler than grammar of any Slavic language, heh.

Fair point. I think it's the kanji that would be the most difficult part (for me personally, anyway)

[vixzify]

It's not that algorithms can't master the grammar (i'm not saying they're perfect), it's the fact that things never translate 1:1 between different languages, especially japanese.

OT: I love my HHKB i got a few weeks ago, i love the layout and feel of keys, it's got my name written all over it (figuratively). I'm looking to pick up a second one for work when i can stomach another 400 (inc shipping to AUS) for a keyboard