Author Topic: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)  (Read 42541 times)

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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:09:45 »
Fits the design constraints... wasn't meant to be a multi-purpose anything.
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Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:13:53 »
Well, not just fewer endpoints... also less buffer memory on the endpoints it has got, and less RAM too :(

I'm not trying to mock it, just querying a decision which seems odd to me! (vs '32U4, for example).

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:18:15 »
Does that mean that Hasu's code etc won't work on it? I'm not certain on microcontroller stuff.

Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:23:33 »
It can probably be recompiled for it - I don't know how much memory it likes to have, or how many endpoints it uses. You could always cut something out if it would like more than 4 endpoints. Four get used up pretty quickly, is all... debug, keyboard, multimedia, mouse(keys)... on mine I also have a settings endpoint and an NKRO keyboard in addition to the 6KRO keyboard.

I can't remember what other differences there are between the '2 family and the '4 family... some instructions missing, fewer timer/counters, presumably fewer other peripherals but that's unlikely to be relevant. But it is a 'family' difference rather than just a 'slightly' different model than the '32U4.

Anyway, I just find it an odd decision. The price difference doesn't seem to be enough to warrant choosing something unusual...
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:29:53 by Soarer »

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:28:41 »
Sounds less than optimal considering the current firmwares for the u4 that work well, not bashing your work Biphany, because I sure do appreciate it!

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:30:05 »
It's smaller, cheaper, requires less surrounding components, does the job, and is possible to solder by hand... It's good enough =)

Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:33:30 »
Last thing I want to do is bash it! Just saying my bit while it's not too late to reconsider... but if all my points have already been considered then carry on!

Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:38:04 »
It's smaller, cheaper, requires less surrounding components, does the job, and is possible to solder by hand... It's good enough =)

'does the job' / 'good enough' is what I might disagree with, to a degree. There's no question that the '32U4 can do more of a job! ;)

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:38:58 »
I'll be poking around to see about getting Hasu's firmware onto a U2 then.

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 29 May 2013, 18:48:38 »
Are you having the fab solder all of these for you this time?

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 02:01:28 »
No, this time I'll just order a few 16 of each perhaps. Test them out, send to some people. If they work out I can order more PCB and sell those alone, or as a kit with all the components. I'm not going to solder more than a few this time. Anyone is free to buy a bunch of PCBs and do the job though. Or help me out with all the manufacturing for a small royalty.

There is still the same amount of flash memory. If there is a problem someone just needs to write better code ;-) The only thing I would be slightly worried about is the smaller amount of RAM. It could have effect on how large layout definitions you can have loaded at the same time, or how fast you can swap between them. And how long macros you would be able to record. I don't know too much about this endpoint business, but there are 4 on the u2 compared to 6 on the u4. There is one "larger" endpoint on the u4 as well. I don't know if that is needed for the NKEY rollover. Maybe you'll only be able to get 32KEY rollover or something, I have no idea. The normal 6KRO is still there at least =)

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 03:28:39 »
I would be in for a qfr model

Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 07:10:05 »
There is still the same amount of flash memory. If there is a problem someone just needs to write better code ;-) The only thing I would be slightly worried about is the smaller amount of RAM. It could have effect on how large layout definitions you can have loaded at the same time, or how fast you can swap between them. And how long macros you would be able to record. I don't know too much about this endpoint business, but there are 4 on the u2 compared to 6 on the u4. There is one "larger" endpoint on the u4 as well. I don't know if that is needed for the NKEY rollover. Maybe you'll only be able to get 32KEY rollover or something, I have no idea. The normal 6KRO is still there at least =)

I didn't moan about flash, did I?!
The 'larger' endpoint isn't needed for HID stuff.
One endpoint is used up by a required 'control' endpoint, so the comparison is 3 vs 5.
Total buffer memory for USB is a miserly 176 bytes on the '32U2 vs an exhorbitant 832 bytes on the '32U4.
(Endpoint buffer memory is separate from other RAM).
Endpoints can be single or double buffered. Obviously, the latter uses twice the buffer memory, but can be useful.

The biggest endpoints in my code are the debug and config (in and out) endpoints - altogether 384 bytes used.
(These provide useful features, but maybe they only need to be single buffered).
Control endpoint size is set at 32 in my code, but I'm not sure whether it uses twice that, since it's bidirectional.
The NKRO endpoint is 2x32 bytes.
The 6KRO endpoint is 2x8 bytes.
To also fit a mouse endpoint on the '32U4 I'll need to combine my debug and config endpoints, and write my own version of hid_listen - even that chip's causing some pain!

RAM gets used up fairly quickly if any tables are dynamic (as in my code). If they're in flash then it's less of a problem (as in hasu's code). Allow maybe 128 bytes for global variables and stack etc, one byte per key for individual debouncing, buffers for preparing USB reports... if that's all there is then 1k is sufficient.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 08:44:03 »
No, and I didn't mean to target you specifically, the "you" was more in general. And RAM was my main concern, it came out a bit in the wrong order.. The u4 has 2.5kB RAM so that is a factor 2.5 up. There are actually 4 free endpoints on the u2 versus 6 on the u4,  so that is only a factor 1.5 up. The difference in their size not taken into account, that would be a factor 4.7...

I don't know your code, but config sounds nice =) Debugging is only a commodity for coders ;) I imagine it is possible to do most development on a u4 and then drop debugging for the final u2 version. Doesn't a smaller buffer size simply mean you need to transfer more packages?

I believe my code would run just fine on an atmega8u2 =D

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 08:45:49 »
I don't understand anything that's being said in this thread. But I like it.

Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 11:12:32 »
I didn't mean to particularly discuss my code, just using it for examples. The point being that people are mostly used to using the '32U4, so any reduced limits might well not have been considered before in great detail. I'm just trying to list them out so that an informed choice is made over the chip :)

I made a mistake before - the control endpoint doesn't count as one of the 4 or 6, so that's good.

There's no provision in the standard 6KRO report for adding a multimedia report to the same endpoint, so multimedia takes another one in that case.

With my NKRO report the multimedia is added as an alternate report to the same endpoint, but I also have a 6KRO endpoint for compatibility with BIOS.

That's two gone already either way! In terms of 'free endpoints for extra stuff', it's fair to say the 32u4 has 4 and the 32u2 only 2... that's 2x!

Supporting reduced sizes for config and debug is effort. It would need a custom hid_listen just for the debug. And it's dull... most programmers would much rather be working on something else, something new, rather than just maintaining the status quo!

Some sort of debug would be pretty damn useful even if most dev is done on 32u4, since it's a different chip. Plus, it can be useful to users also.

As you might have gathered by now, I feel that a truer comparison is what you have spare for extra stuff, after allowing for the necessary stuff. So 2 spare endpoints vs 4, about 80 bytes endpoint buffer vs 736, about 768 bytes RAM vs about 2.25k, etc.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 12:25:54 »
Well it is going to be 32u2 anyway, and this is the reason in short.
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Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 16:05:57 »
The reason is... because the 32u4 will fit? Only just maybe, on the filco full, but that's "good enough" ;)
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 May 2013, 16:08:09 by Soarer »

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 16:35:05 »
no room for traces on the filco full unless you do via-in-pad, not sure on the clearances for traces on the left side on the QFR88.  The Filco88 is done with the u4 already (I have 2 :) )
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Offline Soarer

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 16:45:15 »
Vias could go underneath the chip ;D

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 17:57:17 »
If this used the u4 instead of the u2 could we use all the existing phantom firmware/gui's to program the QFR?

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 18:00:44 »
There are no current GUI's, but yes. We could use the current firmware without any hitches, as the firmware was designed for the 'u4 in mind.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 18:35:27 »
btw I am very interested in this. Is this still in development?

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 03:09:30 »
FedEx is actually transporting something very interesting at the moment. But starting today is the holiday of the year here. So surprises will have to wait until Monday...

Offline gnubag

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:41:15 »
FedEx is actually transporting something very interesting at the moment. But starting today is the holiday of the year here. So surprises will have to wait until Monday...

!!!!!

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #75 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 16:06:22 »
Tada! It works, I only had a few tiny bugs before I got it working =D I also replaced all the LEDs on esoomenona's QFR since I popped one while poking around with my multimeter... I'm really thankful to have had it on loan for half the year, abusing it mercilessly... I lifted some pads when I was de-soldering an LED today, but they all work now =P
26324-0
26326-1

Here is the "big brother" as well. Made to fit the 104/105 Filco. I haven't tried it out yet. Tomorrow..
26328-2
26330-3

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 16:10:29 »
Tada! It works, I only had a few tiny bugs before I got it working =D I also replaced all the LEDs on esoomenona's QFR since I popped one while poking around with my multimeter... I'm really thankful to have had it on loan for half the year, abusing it mercilessly... I lifted some pads when I was de-soldering an LED today, but they all work now =P
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Here is the "big brother" as well. Made to fit the 104/105 Filco. I haven't tried it out yet. Tomorrow..
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

So much WIN!!! :eek:

Offline neoezekiel

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 16:27:15 »
Awesome! Any chances of source? I would love to see your thought process for each of the main features. I don't have much experience targeting HID device controllers, but embedded dev is definitely my cup of tea.  ;)
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Offline gnubag

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 16:46:31 »
wow compared to the filco tkl controller that is like almost no soldering at all.

gooood stuff

Offline Jmneuv

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 17:44:48 »
i like the pretty flakes

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 20:20:30 »
There have been so many amazing projects coming to fruition lately. This is one that I've been keeping track of. Here's to hoping that 104 Filco controller works well so I can reprogram my work board.

And I LOVE the idea of reprogramming a QFR. After all the mods I've seen for the QFR lately, it'll be awesome to see this final step come through. It's going to be a budget-friendly programmable TKL! So crazy! :D

Offline salmo

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 20:29:46 »
I really want one of these.  I love my QFR w/ Greens and would love to be able to get something like my Phantom firmware running on it.

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #82 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 00:41:14 »
I am also totally in for one of these for my qfr that I use at work.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 03:59:40 »
Awesome! Any chances of source? I would love to see your thought process for each of the main features. I don't have much experience targeting HID device controllers, but embedded dev is definitely my cup of tea.  ;)

Source code? I just updated this with my additions for the Flake. I'm using the PJRC keyboard example in the bottom. I know more about writing pseudo code more than anything else. I have used Java quite a bit, but all this preprocessor stuff, * and & and c in general is not something I know a lot about =D

I need to work some more on all the comments, and cleaning up a bit. My goal is that this firmware should be really basic and easy to understand. I will leave more advanced features to other more gifted c coders...

Offline neoezekiel

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 12:16:06 »
Awesome! Any chances of source? I would love to see your thought process for each of the main features. I don't have much experience targeting HID device controllers, but embedded dev is definitely my cup of tea.  ;)

Source code? I just updated this with my additions for the Flake. I'm using the PJRC keyboard example in the bottom. I know more about writing pseudo code more than anything else. I have used Java quite a bit, but all this preprocessor stuff, * and & and c in general is not something I know a lot about =D

I need to work some more on all the comments, and cleaning up a bit. My goal is that this firmware should be really basic and easy to understand. I will leave more advanced features to other more gifted c coders...

Thanks  :D
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Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 14:56:56 »
Just finished programming the Kitten Paw as well. Seems to be working just fine =D

Offline Tranquilite

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #86 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 16:34:13 »
Well count me as highly interested in these. The Kitten Paw is compatible with fullsize Filco and Rosewill boards right?

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 16:39:44 »
Well count me as highly interested in these. The Kitten Paw is compatible with fullsize Filco and Rosewill boards right?

Nope they are different. I have begun designing a Rosewill controller. I think I will redo the Filco TKL as well to use the same hardware.

Offline Zifle

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 17:39:51 »
You can sign me up for one of both, as well. I was sceptical at first, about getting one for my filco, but with the naming scheme, and design, there's no way I can opt out of one!
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Offline nullstring

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 28 June 2013, 00:30:36 »
Definitely interested in multiple of the rosewill controllers.

Offline sailerboy

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 29 June 2013, 09:47:48 »
I'd be down for a Quickfire Rapid controller.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #91 on: Thu, 11 July 2013, 03:23:21 »
I have around 60 PCBs each for the QFR and the full size Filco controllers. I am not going to be doing soldering for these myself. I already sent the QFR I had borrowed back, so I wouldn't even be able to test those... Also it takes to much time, kills my back, my equipment, and probably my eyes and lungs as well =P However I will gladly ship off either just circuit boards or complete DIY kits. If anyone feels up to ordering bulk for building and selling on we'll work something out as well.

Edit: Starting a new thread for sales http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46700
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 August 2013, 09:11:33 by bpiphany »

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 23:56:53 »
Will there be a secondary thread soon to discuss firmware flashing instructions and a github repo or is it cool to discuss that in this thread?

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #93 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 12:37:15 »
That is probably a good idea, tell me if someone starts one =) I don't have as much time keeping up to date with the forum nowadays.. There will need to be build instructions as well.

I have been away over the weekend, but I am just about to pack up little bags for everyone who has paid =)

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #94 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 12:43:08 »
I'm so excited for this :D :D

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #95 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 12:49:47 »
That is probably a good idea, tell me if someone starts one =) I don't have as much time keeping up to date with the forum nowadays.. There will need to be build instructions as well.

I have been away over the weekend, but I am just about to pack up little bags for everyone who has paid =)

I'd love a v2 of the Filco TKL controller!  You had mentioned that you had plans to make those.
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Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #96 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 14:50:42 »
That is probably a good idea, tell me if someone starts one =) I don't have as much time keeping up to date with the forum nowadays.. There will need to be build instructions as well.

I have been away over the weekend, but I am just about to pack up little bags for everyone who has paid =)

ygpm!  btw if you post all the pinouts I can try to start port hasu's phantom firmware to it.

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #97 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 00:33:45 »
I put the schematic in a new wiki page here http://deskthority.net/wiki/Frosty_Flake

The matrix is the same as for all Costar boards. The order of the columns and rows in the matrix differs though. I should perhaps come up with a better naming convention (the RowContaining# instead of RowA or whatever way it comes out...).

Offline domoaligato

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #98 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 00:36:39 »
silly me I should have looked at your github :D
https://github.com/BathroomEpiphanies/simple_keyboard/blob/master/models/frosty.h
the firmware already posted.
you are incredible!

Offline bpiphany

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Re: Replacement controllers - Filco, QuickFire, Rosewill, (others?)
« Reply #99 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 00:43:56 »
I'm planning to re-use that same matrix for all controllers. I needed to call the columns in a bit funky order to keep it the same. That is why the column definitions are a bit out of order here
https://github.com/BathroomEpiphanies/simple_keyboard/blob/master/models/frosty.c
and compared to
https://github.com/BathroomEpiphanies/simple_keyboard/blob/master/models/paw.c