MINT IBM Model M - rude ebay seller, looks like a lie to me?

[figit090]

If this is out of line please let me know, and I apologize, but I wanted to help members notice a bad seller, as I figure some on here are looking for a nice Model M like I am, no, I KNOW you are.  I have seen new boards go for $100 easy and if I paid that for a piece of said "new" old stock and got a grimy used keyboard, I would be pissed.
I didn't find a seller review section, if there is one I'm sorry.  Perhaps off topic would be better?  I figure people are looking for keyboards here so this is the place to warn them.

I looked at this auction, listing a new mint IBM Model M in what looks to me like used condition because the home row is dirty, I see dirt in the crack to the left of the number keys and in the logo sticker, and the escape key even looks browned a bit.  I've seen new boards online, they didn't look like this.  Brown wasn't used by IBM 



When I kindly asked thinking perhaps the images were switched or they missed the dirt and thought the keyboard was new, perhaps the seller took it as an attack, but chose to basically say "GO ELSEWHERE". 

Definitely hiding something from what I see, and I don't want a newb to bid on that board if it is fake (please ask questions, but he even posted my question!)  Even a small computer screen might keep them from seeing the brown finger stains and getting a used board.  Perhaps that's why the seller thought the images make the board look new, he's not viewing them on a high res IPS screen like I am...

Here's the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200886195066#ht_2594wt_1139

Here, encase he takes it down after I send him a reply, and believe me i'm going to, is the question and answer:

Q:    I'm a bit confused, your auction lists the keyboard as new and mint, but in your images I see dirt in the cracks, and dirt on the keys, all what appears to be from being used. Is this used and just in the original box, or new? Why has it not been tested? Thank you kindly for your time!   Jan-29-13
A:    Too bad you are confused. You may be seeing a photographic artifact. I said it was mint, and it is. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your purchases.

Yes, the board looks great, but no not new.  Despite his claim to artifact (lol) I know there's no reason those home row keys should look ANY different than the ones just above, he even got the white balance to look good.  Funnier is the close up of the ESC key, it even looks dirty (insert foot in mouth, seller).

[poxeclipse]

Thank you figit. You'll see lots of this kind of sellers, who're setting unfair traps.
Though, some keyboards get dirty just sitting in a mould filled basement, I saw it a few times. I saw an old Chicony, really NIB ( I opened the box !) and the keycaps looked dirty, like been used.
 And the price is not that bad: $25.

[figit090]

You're welcome.  I encourage the asking of questions.  Should I send him a heartfelt reply mentioning why he just lost business, and that he was rude, and that I'll try as hard as I can to make collectors aware of his shady business because of these things called forums??

[poxeclipse]

You're welcome.  I encourage the asking of questions.  Should I send him a heartfelt reply mentioning why he just lost business, and that he was rude, and that I'll try as hard as I can to make collectors aware of his shady business because of these things called forums??

Now, here I have to agree with you again. Being rude hides shady stuff, so be aware of rude sellers too.

[AKIMbO]

The board is in good condition, but it's certainly not mint.  Any seller who is shifty in communications or defensive should throw up red flags for you. 

If I were you, I'd just not reply to him and make sure not to buy from him in the future.

[figit090]

Sounds good, I'll probably just not reply, and let him continue to be rude to people.  No sense in teaching him that it's more of a red flag to be an arse.  That way future inquiries will alert potential buyers. 

[Elrick]

Sounds good, I'll probably just not reply, and let him continue to be rude to people.  No sense in teaching him that it's more of a red flag to be an arse.  That way future inquiries will alert potential buyers.

Don't get involved unless it's part of the Paypal claim you have instigated against that seller.  For me I have successfully got back the full purchase price on three items when I did the call back with Paypal.  What makes it even easier is that Paypal couldn't get in touch with the so-called sellers for any response.

The good thing is that you get your money back and you leave a very scathing and much deserved negative feedback for them.  A very happy ending for you.

[figit090]

Sounds good, I'll probably just not reply, and let him continue to be rude to people.  No sense in teaching him that it's more of a red flag to be an arse.  That way future inquiries will alert potential buyers.

Don't get involved unless it's part of the Paypal claim you have instigated against that seller.  For me I have successfully got back the full purchase price on three items when I did the call back with Paypal.  What makes it even easier is that Paypal couldn't get in touch with the so-called sellers for any response.

The good thing is that you get your money back and you leave a very scathing and much deserved negative feedback for them.  A very happy ending for you.

So you're saying I should try and win it, then file a claim if it is indeed (and it will be) used when it arrives, then file a claim for partial or full refund?

Since it says "no exchanges or refunds" would that make me exempt from having to send it back for a refund?

All that sounds tricky I think I'd rather avoid the hassle and give money to a deserving previous owner than give that loser my money, and have to deal with a claim.  After all I didn't want that board I wanted to help others AVOID it.  I have enough claims going right now (car insurance and a motherboard RMA) 
Plus, since I've asked the guy about it I obviously don't believe him, and given the evidence it's used, if they investigated the claim they could accuse me of fraud against paypal or deny the claim.  nah.

[fohat.digs]

I must be missing something.

The listing says "Mint" which is a murky term at best. If you are referring to comic books or coins, the word "mint" has a specific meaning, with keyboards I would not expect it to mean much more than "really nice" but maybe my expectations are low.

This looks to be a nicer Model M than any but 1 or 2 of the dozen or more that I have bought on ebay.

And I would say that the box is worth almost as much as the keyboard, certainly it is far more rare.

The late-89 date means that it will probably not have the heavy plate or wire stabilizers, but, still, this looks like a superior specimen.

If you can get it for $50 or less, it is probably a good deal. If it does not function properly, then you have the right to complain.

Me, personally, I would not expect "New in Box" unless it said "New in Box" in those words, specifically.

And if you use Paypal to suck the money back from the seller, after the fact, on a technicality, then SHAME ON YOU, YOU ASSH0LE!

[sleepy916]

That one looks pretty good as far as condition. The casing looks really white, probably just the flash. I wouldn't say it's mint but very good.

[figit090]

I must be missing something.
The listing says "Mint" which is a murky term at best. If you are referring to comic books or coins, the word "mint" has a specific meaning, with keyboards I would not expect it to mean much more than "really nice" but maybe my expectations are low.
This looks to be a nicer Model M than any but 1 or 2 of the dozen or more that I have bought on ebay.
And I would say that the box is worth almost as much as the keyboard, certainly it is far more rare.
The late-89 date means that it will probably not have the heavy plate or wire stabilizers, but, still, this looks like a superior specimen.
If you can get it for $50 or less, it is probably a good deal. If it does not function properly, then you have the right to complain.
Me, personally, I would not expect "New in Box" unless it said "New in Box" in those words, specifically.
And if you use Paypal to suck the money back from the seller, after the fact, on a technicality, then SHAME ON YOU, YOU ASSH0LE!

Little harsh don't you think?  Sure hope you're not calling me that, because I wasn't about to take advantage of Paypal...

As for you missing something, you missed the big yellow size 20 font saying "Brand New in Original Box"

Like I said, I wasn't trying to see if it was worth it or if it looked nice, I know it looks nice.  I'm just letting others know it's not new and the seller is lying through his fingers about it, so go ahead and pay $50 for it, but don't pay $100 expecting something that's freshly out of the box.  I've seen several in the last few months and this is not one, and I didn't want a collector to get burned.

That one looks pretty good as far as condition. The casing looks really white, probably just the flash. I wouldn't say it's mint but very good.

Not the flash, you can't create brown light like that with a normal flash, let alone just on the home row, and his white balance is right on.

[Elrick]

So you're saying I should try and win it, then file a claim if it is indeed (and it will be) used when it arrives, then file a claim for partial or full refund?

Since it says "no exchanges or refunds" would that make me exempt from having to send it back for a refund?

Also, please ignore "No Exchanges or Refunds" because Paypal treats the transaction not Ebay.  With Paypal they look at each case individually to determine whether to give you a full or partial refund depending upon what you are after from the seller.

But looking closely at the keyboard it's still worth the money and a good clean up.  Make sure you run a complete 101 key test on the PC to see how it functions and to see if the plastic rivets have popped loose yet (shake the baby around above your head).

Paypal will look favorably upon you if the keyboard fails to function for it's given purpose.  So don't worry, as a buyer Ebay is extremely safe when dealing with suspicious A**holes looking to make profit off someone's ignorance.  You just need to know your basic rights under Paypal.

 

[fohat.digs]

Sorry to have ruffled feathers.

I have bought and sold hundreds of items on ebay for over a decade, and I get pretty angry over ebay/Paypal policies that are so prejudicial in favor of buyers and against sellers.

Yes, you have to follow their rules TO THE LETTER, but it is far too easy for a buyer to complain, and then Paypal will suck the money straight out of the seller's account instantly.

While I acknowledge that you can only assume that 2%-5% of all deals will go sour, for whatever reasons, I believe that there are a whole lot of buyers that get the goods, then make a variety of bogus claims to get their money back, while keeping the items.

So, clearly, I feel that sellers are generally to be trusted more than buyers. But that is based on my own experiences.

But, by the same token, I also assume that I am going to get the best "deals" from ignorant sellers who do not understand what they have. I accept that I am gambling when I enter that arena, and take my losses with my wins.

Good competent buyers and sellers make solid transactions at fair market value.

and PS - With keyboards, "New in Box" is not New in Box 99% of the time, and showing a keyboard out of a box simply says "used to be new in box"

[Peter]

I'll put it like this :

If I had a 1989 Model M,
in the original retail-box !! ..
!!
I'd set a fixed price !
But then, I know what I'm selling (NOT 'giving away for free' )
EDIT : Actually, I wouldn't even think about selling it !

Also, as the guy with 35 NIB Model M's, I can say with confidence :
That picture has almost 100% certainly been white-balance corrected in software !
(I've done it myself 1 or 2 times - It's surprisingly difficult to take a good picture of a 'white' keyboard )

Regarding the sellers attitude :
There's also the possibility that he feels genuinely insulted by your insinuations,
because he, rightfully or not, believes it is 'Mint' ?

Either way, you are most likely on his 'blocked buyers'- list now .

Would YOU sell anything on eBay to a 'customer' like yourself ??
I'd rather cancel the transaction and accept the feedback-beating !


PS-EDIT :
What would clickyboards charge for it ?
Not that it matters much, they haven't had any real IBM-boards for sale in AGES !

[figit090]

Well it was a newer one so not worth as much to collectors in my opinion.

Sure he can feel insulted but any resonable adult would take the questions seriously and either explain, or provide another angle shot, not insult me.  I don't give a hoot if I'm on his blocked buyers list, that's not even a DROP in my life's bucket.  Not even an atom.  I wouldn't pay $20 for a keyboard from that guy.

If I were asked the questions I asked, I would respond kindly and apologize for the confusion, not tell the buyer to go away.  That's just stupid. 

As for clickykeyboards, they have had some real ones lately I believe, but either way they are catering to collectors and obviously it's working because they're selling (could be a marketing thing too, that's a great reason to leave "SOLD" keyboards up to emphasize their demand).  I'm not impressed with their prices, but I suppose if you want a tested board and no risks it's a decent option.  Ebay is very competitive if you know what you're doing though, so...I dunno.  They'd probably charge $125 for a board like this, I forget exactly.

[hlehmann]

I'll put it like this :

If I had a 1989 Model M,
in the original retail-box !! ..
!!
I'd set a fixed price !
But then, I know what I'm selling (NOT 'giving away for free' )
EDIT : Actually, I wouldn't even think about selling it !

Also, as the guy with 35 NIB Model M's, I can say with confidence :
That picture has almost 100% certainly been white-balance corrected in software !
(I've done it myself 1 or 2 times - It's surprisingly difficult to take a good picture of a 'white' keyboard )

Regarding the sellers attitude :
There's also the possibility that he feels genuinely insulted by your insinuations,
because he, rightfully or not, believes it is 'Mint' ?

Either way, you are most likely on his 'blocked buyers'- list now .

Would YOU sell anything on eBay to a 'customer' like yourself ??
I'd rather cancel the transaction and accept the feedback-beating !


PS-EDIT :
What would clickyboards charge for it ?
Not that it matters much, they haven't had any real IBM-boards for sale in AGES !

35?  Can I have one

[nokcha]

I'll put it like this :

If I had a 1989 Model M,
in the original retail-box !! ..
!!
I'd set a fixed price !
But then, I know what I'm selling (NOT 'giving away for free' )
EDIT : Actually, I wouldn't even think about selling it !

Also, as the guy with 35 NIB Model M's, I can say with confidence :
That picture has almost 100% certainly been white-balance corrected in software !
(I've done it myself 1 or 2 times - It's surprisingly difficult to take a good picture of a 'white' keyboard )

Regarding the sellers attitude :
There's also the possibility that he feels genuinely insulted by your insinuations,
because he, rightfully or not, believes it is 'Mint' ?

Either way, you are most likely on his 'blocked buyers'- list now .

Would YOU sell anything on eBay to a 'customer' like yourself ??
I'd rather cancel the transaction and accept the feedback-beating !


PS-EDIT :
What would clickyboards charge for it ?
Not that it matters much, they haven't had any real IBM-boards for sale in AGES !

There was nothing rude or insulting about his question. Buyers have every right to ask about the item they are thinking about purchasing. That's basic business ethic.

[Elrick]

Sorry to have ruffled feathers.

I have bought and sold hundreds of items on ebay for over a decade, and I get pretty angry over ebay/Paypal policies that are so prejudicial in favor of buyers and against sellers.

Yes, you have to follow their rules TO THE LETTER, but it is far too easy for a buyer to complain, and then Paypal will suck the money straight out of the seller's account instantly.

Good competent buyers and sellers make solid transactions at fair market value.

and PS - With keyboards, "New in Box" is not New in Box 99% of the time, and showing a keyboard out of a box simply says "used to be new in box"

You are 100% right.  For a truly SUCCESSFUL transaction both parties (buyer and seller) have to be in unison with what they want.  I never want to imply if there is a slight problem with the transaction to instantly file a complaint.  But in my own experience, the Sellers have failed to live up to their end of the deal (not sending the product to me in the first place)  hence the 45 day time limit on Paypal had to be met.

You will get someone on Ebay with over 100% feedback rating in the 150 to 200 sales mark, selling something that actually doesn't exist.  I had fell upon three different idiots that had tried that.  The unfortunate thing for them or for their fake identities, is that Paypal had refunded all of my purchases in full.  So it took time but you get covered by Paypal when someone pulls a fake one on Ebay.

So for me, Paypal is the insurance that every genuine Buyer requires.  Even in 2013 you will get someone selling something so perfect looking in pictures that just won't be yours even if you win the bidding war over everyone else to purchase it.
 

[figit090]

Too true,  I'm awaiting a Kinesis Classic with footswitch in the mail right now, let's home the seller packed it really well.    And that it exists.  I had trouble talking to the guy, he was slow to respond, and never did send high res images, but I went on words and smaller images this time to get a good deal.  I've never had to have paypal pay me for issues, I hope I never have to!  Usually the sellers bite their tongue when I talk to them, and return my money.

I have an Everex space invader board I bought for ~7.50 shipped, too.  I think it's real though because nobody would fake something like this  :