Author Topic: Unknown Model M  (Read 8509 times)

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Offline E TwentyNine

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Unknown Model M
« on: Tue, 05 February 2013, 14:29:29 »
New user, first post.  I have a Model M that I have a question about.

It has a standard case that was painted black long before I got it.  The overlay for the lights was removed and replaced, the paint is underneath it.   It came from a friend at IBM like this.

I just got around to taking it apart recently to clean it up, along with some other model M's I have.   Three things unique to this one, apart from the big crack in the case:
  • The chip on the board is not soldered in, it's in a socket, and it has a sticker "Ferrari 9/3"
  • There's no part numbers or dates on the board apart from "8449 (W) WVO" (The "(W)" is a logo, "W" inside a semicircle) on the back
    • The small board for the lights has the wires hardwired with a connector at the other end. 

    There's no label on the back. 

    Was it common for production M's to have the chip not soldered to the board?   When did the wiring for the lights switch from wires to flat ribbon?  I have an undated offwhite M that uses wires for the lights, but there's a connector on each end, nothing is hardwired.  Two more that I have with production dates later than 1990 use flat ribbon wires.

    Any idea what the manufacture time period might be?

    Anything else interesting about this?

    Pictures are at the attached link below. 

    http://minus.com/mBlackModelM

    Thanks.

    [/list]
    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
    1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

    Offline kishy

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #1 on: Tue, 05 February 2013, 18:52:34 »
    That's an early one, for sure. From start of manufacture (believed to be in 1985; no Ms we've seen pass this forum so far were legitimately from 1984) up to perhaps 1986 or 1987, but the controller chip being socketed is an unusual attribute, as is the hard-wired LED board. LED boards connected with wires were the norm until '88ish, but they had a connector at both ends. The IBM logo is of course in the top right which suggests it was not originally paired with a Personal System/2 as released in 1987; it's more likely an XT-286 or PC AT keyboard if it was paired with a system. There is the possibility of it being a prototype of some kind but I'm doubtful any of the true originals are out in the wild...not to say it isn't possible though. Some early boards have been seen with the internals marked in a way that suggests the sticker was designed for a Model F but adapted, so any stickers you can find are relevant.

    I am interested to know what the sticker on the bottom says for a date and part number. Even if it's been painted over, typical IBM fashion with the majority of Ms was to put a plastic film on the sticker so it may be able to survive the paint being gently removed, if you feel inclined to do that.
    « Last Edit: Tue, 05 February 2013, 18:55:12 by kishy »
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    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #2 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 08:00:03 »
    Unfortunately there is no sticker on the back.  Either there never was or whoever prepped it before painting did a very good job of removing it, and removing the logo on the front - there's no residue at all.   I'm certain it's not just under the paint as you can see the indent of a circle in the plastic right in the middle (like the circles you see on the interior).

    The no stickers on the back of the keyboard assembly either, and the only thing there I posted in the album, the handwritten number "0178519017" (not sure about the 5).   

    I may lift the sticker off the controller chip to get the full part numbers off that and see what it actually is.

    Thanks for the help.
    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
    1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

    Offline kishy

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #3 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 08:13:55 »
    That controller chip looks like a windowed chip...be careful that you don't expose the transparent window which is likely under that square piece under the sticker, or the chip could be erased or its contents corrupted.
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    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #4 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 08:43:31 »
    I thought it might be a programmable chip.    Combine that with the fact that it's socketed and there are no part numbers on the PCB, I'm thinking it might not be a production piece of hardware.

    I'm hesitant to remove that tape on the chip, I will try to get what that chip is from the partial numbers I can see first.  If I do partially remove it I'll only pull it far enough back to expose the numbers, will keep the top covered.


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    Offline DamienG

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #5 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 11:06:16 »
    If you want to be completely safe do it away from sunlight or fluorescent bulbs - it's the UV that will cause erasure/corruption.  It's possible it's already happened if there is a window under that - I'm not sure a little white label will have offered much protection once out of the case.

    [)amien

    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #6 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 11:20:56 »
    Well, at the moment it seems fine except  for the spacebar and a few keys needing to be hit hard to register.  I'm typing this reply on it.

    The label on the chip doesn't feel like a paper label, feels more like the thickness/quality of white medical tape.

    Another thing I noticed is the bottom half of the case normally has little tabs where the PCB sits to keep it secure.  The bottom of the PCB tucks under those tabs, and the top is held in place by two pegs by the jack.   This case only has the two pegs.
    « Last Edit: Wed, 06 February 2013, 11:23:04 by E TwentyNine »
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    Offline rootwyrm

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #7 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 13:13:05 »
    Early?
    Oh HELL no. No no no no no no.

    I recognize that SOB and I wish I had the cash in hand. That's not an ordinary Model M at all. That's not an early one either. Ferrari 9/3 is the firmware codename and revision - internal to the developers, so may not decode to a date. The black paint is gray for a reason. That's also a leftover early-model controller which has been modified with a socket and a very specific 4MHz crystal.  And yes, it is medical tape - IBM standardized on using medical tape for UEPROMs. Translation: DO NOT REMOVE IT. YOU WILL ERASE THE CONTENTS. The medical tape is more than sufficient as long as it's not removed.
    That crystal is what gave it away. That's a high resilience crystal - it'll hold 4MHz through a wide temperature range and despite shocks.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I'm pretty damn sure we can say hello to a prototype Industrial Model M.
    "I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
    Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #8 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 13:18:00 »
    I was going to ask about that crystal - wasn't going to call it that, but I was going to ask about it.  Hadn't seen it anywhere else.

    You sound like you're a (former) IBMer?  Were you involved with this - I'm wondering how in the world you would know what the internal firmware codename would be.

    Thanks you very much for the information.  I'm not removing the tape.
    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
    1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

    Offline rootwyrm

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #9 on: Wed, 06 February 2013, 13:31:24 »
    I was going to ask about that crystal - wasn't going to call it that, but I was going to ask about it.  Hadn't seen it anywhere else.

    You sound like you're a (former) IBMer?  Were you involved with this - I'm wondering how in the world you would know what the internal firmware codename would be.

    Thanks you very much for the information.  I'm not removing the tape.

    Not a former IBMer, but I know a lot of IBMers both former and current. It's not an IBM-ism either; a lot of people that worked with UEPROMs used medical tape for the same reasons. Plus it was cheap in bulk.

    As to codename - that's the only thing it could be. Ferrari's a trademark so IBM couldn't have used it in production without permission. Ferrari would also likely fit in the codename scheme for peripherals, but it's hard to say. Winchester predates by a decade, TRex was a storage project, so Ferrari wouldn't surprise me at all. (So says the guy who had root on a Raven.)
    "I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
    Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M - from 1984?
    « Reply #10 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 13:47:58 »
    Started a thread on this over at deskthority, and user clickykeyboards over there decoded the date on the controller board.

    He says he can confirm it's from the 49th week of 1984.

    I didn't think there has been any confirmed sighting of a Model M earlier than 1985, but I don't know how often people open them up and look at the date code on the controller board (i.e. an early 85 could conceptually have an 84 controller board).

    I didn't think IBM made production Model M's before 1985.

    Can anyone point me to another instance of a pre-1985 Model M or at least a 1985 M with an 1984 controller board?

    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
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    Offline rootwyrm

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #11 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 14:40:30 »
    Started a thread on this over at deskthority, and user clickykeyboards over there decoded the date on the controller board.

    He says he can confirm it's from the 49th week of 1984.

    I didn't think there has been any confirmed sighting of a Model M earlier than 1985, but I don't know how often people open them up and look at the date code on the controller board (i.e. an early 85 could conceptually have an 84 controller board).

    I didn't think IBM made production Model M's before 1985.

    Can anyone point me to another instance of a pre-1985 Model M or at least a 1985 M with an 1984 controller board?

    Officially, the M was orderable and began production in 1984. (Which is why the Lexmark parts and IBM parts are usually marked "Copyright 1984-1996" or similar.) Remember that IBM had to ramp production before beginning deliveries. The design was finalized some time in 1983 or 1984, they had to make tooling, they had to adjust production lines, and they had to build stock before offering it as an OPN. 49th week of 1984 is far, far too late to be production adjustment. And no production M controller ever used that particular clock source, ever. Every production buckling spring ever used a canned 2-wire crystal for clock source until Unicomp. (IIRC they have no clock source, since there's a PLL source available internal to the PSoC.)

    There is no question at all that it is an Industrial M prototype, using a modified 1985 production part. 49th week of 1984 would put it well within the window. As I said, Y1 is what gives it away - the production M's never shipped with a square clock source in that location. In fact, scroll down here till you hit 'terminal keyboard'. That's the original PCB they started this prototype from. As you can see, there's a long list of modifications, and a long list of differences, but I've got no doubt.
    "I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
    Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #12 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 14:53:46 »
    Thanks, you've been a wealth of information.

    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
    1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

    Offline Mandolin

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #13 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 05:34:02 »
    Got a similar doubt solved it thanks to rootwyrm!
    « Last Edit: Sun, 02 June 2013, 07:35:39 by Mandolin »
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    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #14 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 11:28:43 »
    Got a similar doubt solved it thanks to rootwyrm!

    You included this quote in your eBay listing:

    Quote
    " Y1 is what gives it away - the production M's never shipped with a square clock source in that location. In fact, scroll down here till you hit 'terminal keyboard'. That's the original PCB they started this prototype from. As you can see, there's a long list of modifications, and a long list of differences, but I've got no doubt"

    The bold part does not apply to your board.

    You also state something about a donor board and I looked at the pictures with the varnish and I'm not certain that's a conclusion to reach.  Lots of things were done manually with these keyboards.  Not certain why a prototype would need a different part number (while my case does (it might have been finalized before the hardware), mine does not otherwise).

    While yours is an early model, I'm not certain it is a prototype. I'm not even certain mine is a prototype.   To list yours as such on ebay I think is a bit misrepresentative at this point.

    Yours is the third I've seen with the crystal, clickykeyboards has one as well.  I'm guessing there may be a few more out there.

    But the crystal wasn't the thing that makes me think mine may be a prototype.  I think that just means very early hardware.  The chip and PCB itself are what lean to prototype for me.

    Mine came direct from IBM Boca Raton, which lends weight to it being something used for internal development (I'm still waiting on a response from an old IBMer who was there and might know what it is).

    It has what I believe are unique features:
    • the PCB is longer than any I've seen in an M and is more similar to a depopulated terminal board than anything in a production m.  But it has the jack for a keyboard cable instead of pins, which I've never seen with this style board.  Doesn't match anything in your listing or anywhere else that I've seen.
    • the PCB has no part number, only a manufacture date.
    • the PCB manufacture date is December 1984, the earliest I've seen
    • the chip is socketed, and has an internal firmware codename written on it.  The only one I've seen.
    • the keyboard assembly doesn't have two oval holes at the corners, one is round, with corresponding change in the casing

    If you have pictures of your keyboard assembly and inside of case, if you could post them we can see if that last item is truly unique.

    « Last Edit: Sun, 02 June 2013, 12:07:20 by E TwentyNine »
    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
    1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

    Offline Mandolin

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #15 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 14:06:40 »
    Got a similar doubt solved it thanks to rootwyrm!

    You included this quote in your eBay listing:

    Quote
    " Y1 is what gives it away - the production M's never shipped with a square clock source in that location. In fact, scroll down here till you hit 'terminal keyboard'. That's the original PCB they started this prototype from. As you can see, there's a long list of modifications, and a long list of differences, but I've got no doubt"

    The bold part does not apply to your board.

    You also state something about a donor board and I looked at the pictures with the varnish and I'm not certain that's a conclusion to reach.  Lots of things were done manually with these keyboards.  Not certain why a prototype would need a different part number (while my case does (it might have been finalized before the hardware), mine does not otherwise).

    While yours is an early model, I'm not certain it is a prototype. I'm not even certain mine is a prototype.   To list yours as such on ebay I think is a bit misrepresentative at this point.

    Yours is the third I've seen with the crystal, clickykeyboards has one as well.  I'm guessing there may be a few more out there.

    But the crystal wasn't the thing that makes me think mine may be a prototype.  I think that just means very early hardware.  The chip and PCB itself are what lean to prototype for me.

    Mine came direct from IBM Boca Raton, which lends weight to it being something used for internal development (I'm still waiting on a response from an old IBMer who was there and might know what it is).

    It has what I believe are unique features:
    • the PCB is longer than any I've seen in an M and is more similar to a depopulated terminal board than anything in a production m.  But it has the jack for a keyboard cable instead of pins, which I've never seen with this style board.  Doesn't match anything in your listing or anywhere else that I've seen.
    • the PCB has no part number, only a manufacture date.
    • the PCB manufacture date is December 1984, the earliest I've seen
    • the chip is socketed, and has an internal firmware codename written on it.  The only one I've seen.
    • the keyboard assembly doesn't have two oval holes at the corners, one is round, with corresponding change in the casing

    If you have pictures of your keyboard assembly and inside of case, if you could post them we can see if that last item is truly unique.

    The quote was deleted btw. I think its a misunderstanding, because I read "no production model was ever shipped with a square crystal". If it were true as the other user said, it would apply to every kb.

    pics attached.
    pcb info:
    K/B  P/N: Unknown. No back label.
    Controller PN-1392993 EC-528154 6523 55C


    Manually Stamped Skewed (not printed) with white ink and varnished as it is glossy and you can distinguish the brush filaments at the end of the stroke through the gloss ). 
    It has another machine printed part number with black ink. PN:1351526 EC528087.

    U1 / U3 P/N:#2396191
    U2 P/N:#1389986
    Y1: 1351544 4.00MHz TEW5 43 A
    « Last Edit: Sun, 02 June 2013, 14:17:10 by Mandolin »
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    Offline mich

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #16 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 14:31:06 »
    This one?

    1. My own preproduction prototype Model M also has some PN etched on the bottom of the PCB and a different one written on a manually applied skewed sticker on the top side. And my prototype was built in 199-something in Greenock and has a warranty sticker from some retailer :P
    2. Product numbers are just that - identificators of production units.
    3. Soldered down, permanently programmed microcontroller doesn't exactly smell like a dev-board to me.
    4. A keyboard can't be older than any of its parts, in particular the 1986 buckling spring assembly.
    5. Did IBM even do any Model M R&D in Greenock?
    6. Your nerd-penis officially grows by 2" for this square clock, but I'm afraid that's all.
    « Last Edit: Sun, 02 June 2013, 14:36:14 by mich »

    Offline Mandolin

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #17 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 14:51:58 »
    This one?

    1. My own preproduction prototype Model M also has some PN etched on the bottom of the PCB and a different one written on a manually applied skewed sticker on the top side. And my prototype was built in 199-something in Greenock and has a warranty sticker from some retailer :P
    2. Product numbers are just that - identificators of production units.
    3. Soldered down, permanently programmed microcontroller doesn't exactly smell like a dev-board to me.
    4. A keyboard can't be older than any of its parts, in particular the 1986 buckling spring assembly.
    5. Did IBM even do any Model M R&D in Greenock?
    6. Your nerd-penis officially grows by 2" for this square clock, but I'm afraid that's all.

    It doesn't have to be a dev ver, square clock early test field model maybe, like an early alpha :O? Is there a official IBM PN register?
    How did they it end up with this type of clock if only it was avaliable for R&D and test depts? has it appeared in model F? its at least certainly rare, in fact I haven't seen one ever appart from the model of the OP and mine. It shouldn't be there.
    The only part surely to have been made in the UK is the steel plate, the PCB could've sent from abroad.
    The 1986 steel plate could've been swaped afterwards for repairs.

    « Last Edit: Sun, 02 June 2013, 15:58:32 by Mandolin »
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    Offline Aer Fixus

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #18 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 15:48:07 »
    It's not uncommon for a company to use surplus parts (circuit boards, cases, etc.). If IBM made a bunch of these dev boards for testing (with the odd crystal), there would certainly be excess circuit boards that were not all used up. They could have taken the extras and just thrown the updated IC (non-programmable) on the board and stuck it into a production model. Alternatively, the excess could have been the crystal, not the board and they just used up the remaining ones as the schematic seems to allow room for it.

    In addition, each keyboard has it's share of manual labor poured into it. This could have easily been a build just to get rid of some extra parts.

    This board could have some other story besides manufacturing. Maybe some guy had a dev board and used it for parts on his other M, or vice versa.

    No guarantees, just theories.
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    Offline rootwyrm

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #19 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 18:01:58 »
    This one?

    1. My own preproduction prototype Model M also has some PN etched on the bottom of the PCB and a different one written on a manually applied skewed sticker on the top side. And my prototype was built in 199-something in Greenock and has a warranty sticker from some retailer :P
    2. Product numbers are just that - identificators of production units.
    3. Soldered down, permanently programmed microcontroller doesn't exactly smell like a dev-board to me.
    4. A keyboard can't be older than any of its parts, in particular the 1986 buckling spring assembly.
    5. Did IBM even do any Model M R&D in Greenock?
    6. Your nerd-penis officially grows by 2" for this square clock, but I'm afraid that's all.

    It doesn't have to be a dev ver, square clock early test field model maybe, like an early alpha :O? Is there a official IBM PN register?
    How did they it end up with this type of clock if only it was avaliable for R&D and test depts? has it appeared in model F? its at least certainly rare, in fact I haven't seen one ever appart from the model of the OP and mine. It shouldn't be there.
    The only part surely to have been made in the UK is the steel plate, the PCB could've sent from abroad.
    The 1986 steel plate could've been swaped afterwards for repairs.



    Look, the OP's keyboard is a prototype version of the M Industrial and we are 100% positive of this fact. IBM never used surgical tape or UV-EPROMs in production M's, and Ferrari is a known M code name.

    That said, what you need to understand is how rapid prototyping worked in the 1980's and how IBM manufacturing worked. We've now found a total of three examples with the square crystal, with closely spaced serial numbers - but the other two had it adapted to the production controller layout.
    When you did rapid prototyping in the 80's, it was not rapid. Not unless you hacked up a production part. Otherwise, you had to make a LOT of parts that could be used for prototype and production. IBM tended to favor the 'build a whole bunch' approach generally. It would not surprise me to see similar PCBs in production parts - but they will always an entirely different uC and certain other identifying marks. Like the FRUs and part numbers. The alternative was modifying a production part.
    They'd also use a lot of parts right off the line, including QC rejects, intended-for-new, or whatever was laying around on the shelf. If they had a part stamped 1986 in a prototype, that wasn't indicative of anything. Could be the part was a mis-stamp, could be a 1986 part, could be they tossed one plate and grabbed another off the line. Or disassembled another.
    Literally these things were largely built out of whatever was laying around or available on short notice.

    Mandolin, your keyboard is a production part. Period. The back label went missing or wasn't applied - it happens - but it's still a production part. Period. Not a prototype, not all that interesting aside from the sloppiness on the controller. That's not 'manual application' that's 'the machine wasn't calibrated correctly.' IBM would not reject for crappy silk screening and it is also not skewed - C3 always looks like that. In fact, I can tell you exactly what model and why the sticker's missing.
    It's a 1988-1989 Model M, International Market, manufactured in the United Kingdom. All stickers for these keyboards fall off as they're low quality and frequently applied incorrectly. (They were applied so that they were half in the recess and half out.) There was also no lamination applied. The adhesive ages and they fall off or just get worn off.
    Controllers have compound part numbers. It's a 1392993-1351526. An uncommon controller to find I will grant you, but it is also a production part. Foreign language, though I couldn't tell you which off the top of my head. All of the foreign controllers have unique part numbers because of the IBM way. Since the EEPROM load is different they require a different uC line be used, which means they are given a distinct PN. This is true for almost all of the non-US non-ANSI Model M's.
    As to the rest of it? Welcome to standard practice at the IBM UK/Ireland plant. The PN stamp isn't hand applied, just halfassed. The markings aren't prototyping - those are the QC pass marks. (In fact, all IBM UK plant M's have pen or marker initials on the label for QC pass.) It's a unique thing to the UK facility, but that's how they built every last one of them. Gods only know why. There's also all kinds of crazy part shenanigans and substitutions, half the chassis are missing the blue date stamp on the lower half (if not more), and so on.
    "I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
    Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

    Offline Mandolin

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #20 on: Sun, 02 June 2013, 19:19:23 »

    Look, the OP's keyboard is a prototype version of the M Industrial and we are 100% positive of this fact. IBM never used surgical tape or UV-EPROMs in production M's, and Ferrari is a known M code name.

    That said, what you need to understand is how rapid prototyping worked in the 1980's and how IBM manufacturing worked. We've now found a total of three examples with the square crystal, with closely spaced serial numbers - but the other two had it adapted to the production controller layout.
    When you did rapid prototyping in the 80's, it was not rapid. Not unless you hacked up a production part. Otherwise, you had to make a LOT of parts that could be used for prototype and production. IBM tended to favor the 'build a whole bunch' approach generally. It would not surprise me to see similar PCBs in production parts - but they will always an entirely different uC and certain other identifying marks. Like the FRUs and part numbers. The alternative was modifying a production part.
    They'd also use a lot of parts right off the line, including QC rejects, intended-for-new, or whatever was laying around on the shelf. If they had a part stamped 1986 in a prototype, that wasn't indicative of anything. Could be the part was a mis-stamp, could be a 1986 part, could be they tossed one plate and grabbed another off the line. Or disassembled another.
    Literally these things were largely built out of whatever was laying around or available on short notice.

    Mandolin, your keyboard is a production part. Period. The back label went missing or wasn't applied - it happens - but it's still a production part. Period. Not a prototype, not all that interesting aside from the sloppiness on the controller. That's not 'manual application' that's 'the machine wasn't calibrated correctly.' IBM would not reject for crappy silk screening and it is also not skewed - C3 always looks like that. In fact, I can tell you exactly what model and why the sticker's missing.
    It's a 1988-1989 Model M, International Market, manufactured in the United Kingdom. All stickers for these keyboards fall off as they're low quality and frequently applied incorrectly. (They were applied so that they were half in the recess and half out.) There was also no lamination applied. The adhesive ages and they fall off or just get worn off.
    Controllers have compound part numbers. It's a 1392993-1351526. An uncommon controller to find I will grant you, but it is also a production part. Foreign language, though I couldn't tell you which off the top of my head. All of the foreign controllers have unique part numbers because of the IBM way. Since the EEPROM load is different they require a different uC line be used, which means they are given a distinct PN. This is true for almost all of the non-US non-ANSI Model M's.
    As to the rest of it? Welcome to standard practice at the IBM UK/Ireland plant. The PN stamp isn't hand applied, just halfassed. The markings aren't prototyping - those are the QC pass marks. (In fact, all IBM UK plant M's have pen or marker initials on the label for QC pass.) It's a unique thing to the UK facility, but that's how they built every last one of them. Gods only know why. There's also all kinds of crazy part shenanigans and substitutions, half the chassis are missing the blue date stamp on the lower half (if not more), and so on.

    Thank you for your info, sounds reasonable, except its from 88-89. Non of its parts is from '87, it would've been the led version then, so I believe its still the 86, not 85 neither 84 version though.
    « Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 09:17:44 by Mandolin »
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    Offline bitslasher

    • Posts: 18
    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #21 on: Mon, 22 July 2013, 00:42:35 »
    Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but to just clarify the whole issue a bit with the "mandolin crystal"...  From what I have found, I think I can say with a healthy amount of confidence that this specific part is not rare, nor exotic, in and of themselves.  It just so happens that the PCB used for the earliest boards simply used this crystal.

    The period they should appear are from the beginning of manufacturing, (which would be the summer of 1985) until about May 1986-- around the same time the labels on the backs changed.  I have two of these boards myself-- a 1388032 (dated 12-17-1985) and a 1390131 (dated 4-17-1986) and both use the same exact controller board, both have the crystal.  Every model M I've seen the insides of that date April '86 or earlier have this part.

    Does anyone have an early '86 board *without* the crystal?

    Offline E TwentyNine

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #22 on: Mon, 22 July 2013, 08:11:52 »
    The period they should appear are from the beginning of manufacturing, (which would be the summer of 1985)

    My pcb has a date of 1984.   The crystal was never the key factor for me with this board.

    You have two boards with the same layout as mine?  Pics?
    Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
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    Offline dorkvader

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    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #23 on: Mon, 22 July 2013, 12:07:08 »
    I think he meant to say that he has two keybaords with the same "older style" controller with the nicer crystal.

    Also, his research results are the same as what I was able to determine. It all depends on teh plant type, but it seems like most of them changed to the newer crystals sometime around may 1986

    Now, I don't know if it's the same time as the label changed, as I do believe different plants changed at different times. It's already well known that different plants have different serial numbers, so I would imagine that they likely have different crystal switchover times.

    Offline bitslasher

    • Posts: 18
    Re: Unknown Model M
    « Reply #24 on: Mon, 22 July 2013, 21:24:50 »
    Oh sure, I didn't mean to imply that label change and pcb change were connected; I was just using the visible label change which probably was a coincidence that it seemed to occur around the same time.  It seems Greenock boards labeling was always different. 

    I was just throwing this out for anyone who has an older board of that vintage and has never cared to peek inside-- maybe they will find out something new about their board.

    I plan on posting pics of my boards soon...I'm relatively new to this (on geekhack), compared to you guys.