Cherry Keyboard Model KXN5-C251

[E TwentyNine]

New member, second thread I've created.  I have three of what I think are interesting keyboards I have questions about, this is the second (First was this Model M: Unknown Model M).  I'll post the third one tomorrow.

I have this Cherry Keyboard model # KXN5-C251 and I'm trying to find out what it is.

It has an AT connector and metal backing. Pictures can be found here: http://minus.com/mCherryKeyboard

The FCC ID on it is DE6 7DAKXN544001 and a search at the FCC ID site FCC ID Search page does show Cherry as the manufacturer:

Cherry Electrical Products
A Division of the Cherry Corporation
3600 Sunset Avenue
Waukegan    IL    United States    60087    
Original Equipment

And it also says Final Action Date: 07/17/1985, which I have no idea what that means.

So, what do I have here?  Searching on the model number in whole or part has revealed nothing.

[Peter]

You will probably get some useful info by disassembling it and see what is printed on the PCB ..
On the other hand, if it has never been opened, you shouldn't, because this is really something else !
Are the key-caps Double-Shot, Dye-sub or maybe a mix ?

[E TwentyNine]

Not double-shot. I pulled a few of the keys (both ones with multiple colors and ones with a single color), everything is thin plastic, one piece, no removable keycaps.

And just thought I'd mention regarding the switches - all the ones I've pulled keys off of are black, but I don't know what that means for a keyboard that was likely built in the 80's.

[poxeclipse]

The legends are identical to the ones on IBM terminal keyboards from that era, and the layout too. It seems to be a Cherry keyboard for IBM terminals. Where did you find it ?

[E TwentyNine]

The legends are identical to the ones on IBM terminal keyboards from that era, and the layout too. It seems to be a Cherry keyboard for IBM terminals.

Good call.  A quick search of "cherry terminal keyboard" reveals This page at deskthority which has some very similar models, though I don't see one with a metal backing yet.  Am doing a little digging, thanks for the direction.

[rootwyrm]

I doubt it's for IBM specifically, but that's definitely a terminal keyboard. More specifically, a color terminal keyboard. Which means it is most definitely not for IBM. What's odd is that it's marked Waukegan, IL - Cherry moved to Auerbach i. d. Oberpf., Germany (yay C&P) in 1979. So it's a real headscratcher. DIN5's not an uncommon connector in general, to be honest. Even in terminals. But the color aspect really, really throws a wrench into things. The only color systems extant in 1979-1980 that I'm aware of are the NEC Astra which used proprietary twin-ax/tri-ax color terminals, but not 122 key keyboards - proprietary 82 key to the best of my recollection. I think DEC had something color, but don't hold me to it.
That particular model is nothing like the G80-2510 - so I'm completely stumped.

[IvanIvanovich]

Even though Cherry moved thier headquarters to Germany in 1979, the IL plant stayed open for some years into the mid 80's I believe. I almost got a macII replacement keyboard pcb made by Cherry in IL with m7 switches a few months ago on ebay. So I think they may have used it for some specialty products division. Unfortuneatly I am not sure about the purpose or origin of this one either.

[SmallFry]

My pop used to work at the Waukegan plant. He worked in their touch interfaces department.

[rootwyrm]

Even though Cherry moved thier headquarters to Germany in 1979, the IL plant stayed open for some years into the mid 80's I believe. I almost got a macII replacement keyboard pcb made by Cherry in IL with m7 switches a few months ago on ebay. So I think they may have used it for some specialty products division. Unfortuneatly I am not sure about the purpose or origin of this one either.

Yeah, but in theory they would have updated the labeling pretty much as soon as they moved. Being made in Illinois is a lot different from declaring yourself based in Illinois like this label seems to do. Plus it seems to predate the G-numbering scheme by a substantial amount. Plus that layout - PF'
!!!
Sonofa... any VMS/OpenVMS experts around here?

[IvanIvanovich]

From what I can tell, it is one of very early MX based since made in 1985, probably and seem to have model number more like M7/8 series. Also, it dosen't even have Cherry keycap which is even more odd. It can't be made before 1984 in any case, as MX didn't exist before then.

[E TwentyNine]

I've been looking at the symbols on the keys and there's plenty I'm just not familiar with.

PF7, PF12 and PF21 all have the same "double arrow" symbol on the front, which seems....redundant.

For the keys on the left side, the bottom left corner key has "little square <--> upright rectangle" on top and "wide rectangle with a line thru it with a loop to the right" on the front. 

I don't know what meanings these symbols hold and in what context (word processing, programming, CAD, ) and why they would merit a dedicated key.

Thanks all for the input so far, any suggestions or further ideas are appreciated.

Edit: While I'm not quite ready to take it apart, I am more than willing to take any pictures of anything if I missed a detail that might help figuring out what this is.

[IvanIvanovich]

The P designates a programmable function key usually on Cherry. Looking more at the extra function keys legend lead me to believe it was used for some sort of captioning/titling video editing system like this.

[E TwentyNine]

The P designates a programmable function key usually on Cherry. Looking more at the extra function keys legend lead me to believe it was used for some sort of captioning/titling video editing system like this.

I found This Cherry Amiga Keyboard on ebay which isn't like mine, but seems to be in the be in the same ballpark.  Amigas were used for video editing at the time, this may be the right track.  Connector is wrong but the later Amigas had the AT style connector.

[rootwyrm]

The P designates a programmable function key usually on Cherry. Looking more at the extra function keys legend lead me to believe it was used for some sort of captioning/titling video editing system like this.

Nopenopenope.
There's a reason it's a 122 and there's a reason it's labeled PF1-PF24 and not F1-F24. It is NOT device programmable. Cannot emphasize that enough.

IBM 5250, HP-UX and VMS are all standardized on PF1-PF12 nomenclature. NOT F1-F12. I forgot the 5250 came in both "F" and "PF" labels. Sigh. Long day. The catch here is that it is definitely not a VT keyboard, it is not a GiGi keyboard, it is not a DECstation keyboard, it is not a 5250 keyboard, and it is not an early HP-UX keyboard.

There's two key things here. One, it's color! That essentially rules out the 5250; it's a monochrome protocol. Two, a 16 color display? Very uncommon. So basically what we're looking for is a terminal that supported 122 keys and 16 color display in production prior to 1985. Oh, and I doubt it's a PC-AT; it's a block oriented terminal with 16 distinctly named colors that borrows from 5250 and DEC.

[DamienG]

The 5250 was not only monochrome.

My first job was programming AS/400's which had colour 5250-compatible terminals with something very similar to this keyboard but in model M buckling spring style. The RESET button bottom left is convincing - it would clear the keyboard buffer on our terminals. The arrows were also in that layout with a button in the middle for toggling an on-screen X/Y ruler IIRC.

Only thing that looks odd is that left set of function keys. Our terminals had those but perhaps with different wording.

[)amien

[DamienG]

Here's what those 5250-style IBM AS/400 terminal keyboards looked liked (not my pic and numeric pad has been modified but best I could find)



A lot of the keys seem the same, identical above the arrow cluster. Only ones that look possibly different are play/record however those keys did not send anything down the wire. They were used to record and playback keystroke sequences so it's a device-specific feature. 

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/iseries/v5r2/ic2924/books/c0926040.pdf is the manual for SDA - screen design aid on those AS/400s. It lists the available colors as Blue, Green, Pink, Red, Turquoise, White, Yellow - same as the keyboard.  While most of those colors can be found on anything pink and turquoise are unusual for such a small pallette.

[)amien

[E TwentyNine]

It seems to be a Cherry version of an IBM F, Part Number 6110344. 

Here's another page (in Japanese).

Check out the bottom left key in the pictures on either page:



And it has the same symbols on the front of the PF keys.

Edit: That first info page has the statement: "The IBM 6110344 is a 122-key model F keyboard, originally intended for use with the IBM 3270 PC. It is possible to connect it to a standard AT-class PC."  Quick check of IBM docs shows the colors the 3270 with extended attributes supported which match the colors on the PF keys.

[rootwyrm]

It looks 5250, but not. What's throwing me off is the date. If we presume 12 month development cycle and a production part, which is reasonable, that means most likely around 1983. The IBM 3180 InfoWindow (AKA color 5250) wasn't introduced until mid-1984 - and they wouldn't have been able to begin development until after IBM released the 3180. Which they wouldn't have necessarily known was coming, since IBM you know, made keyboards and therefore Cherry was a competitor. The 3180 was also incredibly expensive compared to the greenscreen.
And that's presuming they didn't have to reverse engineer anything. Remember that this would be taking place during the period where IBM was engaged in particularly aggressive litigation regarding the perceived or actual reverse engineering of anything IBM created. Which would have extended to the keyboard interface on the 5250. (1984 being the period when Phoenix Technologies made their clone PC BIOS, for the uninitiated.) And since IBM already had a perfectly good keyboard they were eager to sell customers, they didn't really have a reason to ask anyone to make another keyboard.

Well that and I finally found the DEC I was thinking of. Ayup, 24 function keys (PF1-PF24) and block oriented terminal.

[IvanIvanovich]

Looks like you found what it was for. Assuming the action date means manufacture date, it was made in July 85, so they had year. Seems like plenty of time to get something together to me.

[E TwentyNine]

Looks like you found what it was for. Assuming the action date means manufacture date, it was made in July 85, so they had year. Seems like plenty of time to get something together to me.

The FCC page says "Final action date", which may be the last time the ID was active and the part manufactured?

Checking on 3270 terminals, wikipedia lists The 3279, introduced in 1979 as the first version of a seven-color 3270.

[IvanIvanovich]

Looking at fcc final action date means date of approval for application, so they probably started manufacturing around this time.

[E TwentyNine]

That makes complete sense, thanks.

For the heck of it I emailed Cherry/ZF support with my info.  Their complete reply:

"Keyboards that old were manufactured for mainframes, work stations, and production machinery. Unfortunately we have no other information on it as this is way too old."

Thanks to all for the input.

[rootwyrm]

Looking at fcc final action date means date of approval for application, so they probably started manufacturing around this time.

Ah-ha. Okay, then that definitely is a 5250 keyboard. Actually.. that might be a 5250 for PC terminals. In fact, I'd say that's most likely what it is.

Also, the 3270 is not a 122 key keyboard. In fact, the 3279's keyboard was integrated and had no function keys at all. (The keyboard holds key operating elements, hence the big buttons and power indicators.) It's absolutely not a 3270 board.

Remember that the 3180 was around $2000. Meaning very few in the wild, meaning nothing to sell keyboards FOR. It would've been an unprofitable venture. Plus, talking to a 5250 would have required reverse engineering the 5250 protocol. Which IBM would have happily sued you into the ground for. So they would have had to wait for something that wasn't a 5250 but could pretend it was a 5250, meaning the PC-AT - 1984. They also would have had to wait for enough volume to be possible; same deal. Not a lot of 3180's out there at that pricetag - but an awful lot of EGA equipped PC-AT's and clones. Which meant enough volume to justify the tooling and development costs for this keyboard.

So yup, I misunderstood the FCC thing. It's definitely a 5250 PC-AT. Go hook it up to a PC already!

[E TwentyNine]

I miss two little letters in a description...  The page I linked up above stated "The IBM 6110344 is a 122-key model F keyboard, originally intended for use with the IBM 3270 PC. It is possible to connect it to a standard AT-class PC."

So yes, I was off in the weeds with the 3279 info.

The link there to the 3270 PC lists the actual model as a 5271, with the description "The IBM 5271 can be briefly described as a cross between an XT (model 5160) and a 3270 terminal. Indeed, the 5271 is also known as a "3270 PC"."

While I do have an AT->PS/2 adapter, and a PS/2 -> USB adapter, I'm not even sure this thing would fit on my keyboard tray, and it isn't the type of keys I like.  Now if it were a Model F....

Once again, thanks for the help. 

[Soarer]

While I do have an AT->PS/2 adapter, and a PS/2 -> USB adapter, ...

Oh... does it have an AT connector then? That would imply that it's not intended as a direct replacement for the 3270 PC keyboard, since that, while still having a 5-pin connector, has the pins spaced more widely (270 degrees vs 180).

[E TwentyNine]

Just when I thought this was answered.   Maybe it was designed for use with a clone PC which did have a standard AT connector.  No branding on it at all except for the bottom label.

[Soarer]

Hahaha, well, mostly it is answered Clearly designed for use with both a 3270 and a PC, but not a 3270 PC )

It would be interesting to find out what codes it outputs. The 3270PC 'boards output set3 using the AT protocol, which would've been translated using an add-in card. My guess would be that this outputs an extended version of set1 using the PC protocol, but that is only a guess based on the connector, its age, and that it lacks LEDs. If that guess is correct, it would presumably have used a software driver to replace the standard BIOS keyboard routines (or maybe just application level code, if the BIOS passed the extra keys through OK), instead of an add-in card.

So, I suspect it won't work at all using the AT-> PS/2 -> USB adapter chain, but it's worth a try

[Hak Foo]

Maybe it was an "optimistic" product.

Everyone knew the original XT-F layout sucked, but they weren't completely sure what would come next, so Cherry decides "Let's mimic the thing IBM just brought out"-- the 122.

[Soarer]

What came next was the AT 84-key, which wasn't much different to the PC 83-key, just tidied up really. Then the enhanced AT 101/2 key layout came out the next year as an option - a lot of people still chose the 84-key layout.

So, not quite "everyone knew the original XT-F layout sucked". People STILL complain about control being in the wrong place!