Cortron & Devlin military-grade keyboards?

[Tarzan]

I've seen a few surplus Cortron keyboards show up on Ebay lately, they seem to be some sort of magnetic switch?  Very industrial case, and searching for Cortron brings up government sales documents, these keyboards apparently go for around $1,000 each.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251232576786?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I've also seen keyboards being sold as surplus (UK sourced) that look identical to Cortron, but these are listed as Devlin keyboards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380548549977?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

When I sent a query to Cortron, asking about the availability of replacement keycaps in different colors (they are available, $8.50 per key), the sales rep said Corton had no relationship with Devlin.  I actually was looking for used Devlin keyboards, as I'd heard some vintage models had pretty spiffy double-shot keycaps.

So, anyone have any experience making a Cortron keyboard work with a desk-top PC?  Should I consider these in the same category as terminal keyboards, perhaps possible to make work, but will require a custom controller at a minimum?

And what is the story with Devlin?  Anyone seen a set of their old double-shots, and if so, are they worth chasing down?

[rootwyrm]

Well, both are for Sun systems based on the keys. But the commonality stops at the layout - they have very different chassis. So they're entirely different keyboards.

The relevant MilSpec data for Cortron is over here:
http://www.cortroninc.com/W121-524-A_specs.htm
So, as you can see, it's actually a fairly low ball to meet. Especially with shock at 30g and vibration at 5g @ 4-33Hz.
http://www.cortroninc.com/GMSO_121.htm
"Full-travel solid state switches" could be rubber dome with lip-seal or hall effect.

And over here is the Devlin.
Notice something? 65g force, 50M operations - but it's not Cherry. It's rubber dome. "Silicon rubber contact."

The most likely answer to why they look so similar is that the Cortron layout was designed to meet a contract bid specification, and one or more other government agencies adopted the same specification to permit inter-op with common equipment. (It may even be that Sun designed the layout originally and licensed it to Cortron and Devlin.)

[Tarzan]

Well, both are for Sun systems based on the keys. But the commonality stops at the layout - they have very different chassis. So they're entirely different keyboards.

The relevant MilSpec data for Cortron is over here:
http://www.cortroninc.com/W121-524-A_specs.htm
So, as you can see, it's actually a fairly low ball to meet. Especially with shock at 30g and vibration at 5g @ 4-33Hz.
http://www.cortroninc.com/GMSO_121.htm
"Full-travel solid state switches" could be rubber dome with lip-seal or hall effect.

On this one I was hoping the switches were Hall Effect or magnetic, similar to the older Cortron/Xerox board detailed on Deskthority:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/magnetic-keyswitch-t1485.html

Guess there's no real way to tell unless I buy the thing... 

And over here is the Devlin.
Notice something? 65g force, 50M operations - but it's not Cherry. It's rubber dome. "Silicon rubber contact."

The most likely answer to why they look so similar is that the Cortron layout was designed to meet a contract bid specification, and one or more other government agencies adopted the same specification to permit inter-op with common equipment. (It may even be that Sun designed the layout originally and licensed it to Cortron and Devlin.)

Appreciate the catch on the Devlin unit!  I had missed the "rubber contact" reference, that would have been a pretty pricy membrane keyboard.

To your earlier point; if these keyboards are designed for use on Sun systems, does that mean they're compatible with PC systems, or would they need a controller mod to translate?  I'm okay making/finding an adapter cable, but I'm still in the early stages of building my first controller mod (Teensy for Model M terminal board).

[rootwyrm]

To your earlier point; if these keyboards are designed for use on Sun systems, does that mean they're compatible with PC systems, or would they need a controller mod to translate?  I'm okay making/finding an adapter cable, but I'm still in the early stages of building my first controller mod (Teensy for Model M terminal board).

Absolutely requires a full adapter. Sun Type5 protocol is totally different. You need a specific Sun to PS2 or USB adapter. This is the one I use. Yes, they are expensive.

It's highly likely that the Cortron is also rubber dome, since it passed sand test. But impossible to know for certain without taking it apart.

[emusan]

Absolutely requires a full adapter. Sun Type5 protocol is totally different. You need a specific Sun to PS2 or USB adapter. This is the one I use. Yes, they are expensive.

It's highly likely that the Cortron is also rubber dome, since it passed sand test. But impossible to know for certain without taking it apart.

Just out of curiosity how would sand affect the hall effect (unless you weren't referring to the two possible switch types given earlier)? >.>

[rootwyrm]

Absolutely requires a full adapter. Sun Type5 protocol is totally different. You need a specific Sun to PS2 or USB adapter. This is the one I use. Yes, they are expensive.

It's highly likely that the Cortron is also rubber dome, since it passed sand test. But impossible to know for certain without taking it apart.

Just out of curiosity how would sand affect the hall effect (unless you weren't referring to the two possible switch types given earlier)? >.>

A hall effect switch is not a completely sealed assembly - it can't be, there has to be a moving element. Which by nature, can't generally be fully sealed. That said, it's possible, just very difficult on a long lifecycle and would also depend on the details of the sand condition testing. (I'm not familiar enough with the specific procedure.)

[Tarzan]

I'm following up on this old thread to see if anyone had taken the plunge and bought one of the military Cortron keyboards, and if so, can verify if it is rubber dome?

I see that these units are still for sale, some of the original ads (or at least the pictures) I recall from earlier this year, and some new ones.  The one with the black case looks quite interesting, even knowing that I'd need a Sun converter to use it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CORTRON-524-0033-MILITARY-GRADE-METAL-KEYBOARD-W-TRACKBALL/290974560964

[dorkvader]

Well, both are for Sun systems based on the keys. But the commonality stops at the layout - they have very different chassis. So they're entirely different keyboards.

The relevant MilSpec data for Cortron is over here:
http://www.cortroninc.com/W121-524-A_specs.htm
So, as you can see, it's actually a fairly low ball to meet. Especially with shock at 30g and vibration at 5g @ 4-33Hz.
http://www.cortroninc.com/GMSO_121.htm
"Full-travel solid state switches" could be rubber dome with lip-seal or hall effect.

And over here is the Devlin.
Notice something? 65g force, 50M operations - but it's not Cherry. It's rubber dome. "Silicon rubber contact."

The most likely answer to why they look so similar is that the Cortron layout was designed to meet a contract bid specification, and one or more other government agencies adopted the same specification to permit inter-op with common equipment. (It may even be that Sun designed the layout originally and licensed it to Cortron and Devlin.)

Devlin has used alphameric keyboards in the past to make these. I have a military keyboard with an alphameric, and it's a very interesting rubber dome over capacitive layout (with NKRO of course). I asked cortron about it earlier and they replied that alphameric/devlin copied them.

I know there's not a lot of choise for NKRO rubberdome keyboards, but I prefer alphameric to topre, especially after I lubed the sliders. The magnesium case may be a big part of that, though. On the alphameric, the keycaps are dyesub PBT and appear to be keytronic compatible

I would suspect that the devlin ones are alphameric RD, whereas the cortron ones are buckling rubber sleeve over hall effect, but this is a guess based on the age.

I've been wanting one of the cortron ones for a while (they didn't specify the switches they used) but I am hoping the price will go lower.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

This switch—http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/magnetic-keyswitch-t1485.html—turns out to be a patented ITW design, and I learned from Devlin the other day that they bought the tooling from ITW many years ago. They continued to manufacture these switches in the UK until 2005, when they scrapped the tooling.

Detailed photos of a Devlin keyboard with Devlin-made ITW magnetic valve switches:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/reverse-rubber-dome-switch-t449.html

This is what led me to direct my enquires to Devlin themselves. Devlin called them "Cortron" switches, a name they may have picked up from ITW, but Cortron switch patents belong to ITW.

Too bad the photos on eBay don't show the switches.

[Tarzan]

Those Cortron keyboards with black cases are now $40 shipped.  Danged tempting, if they're still in stock in Friday I may take the gamble.  Says they have six for sale, so I think that's pretty likely.   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290974560964

[dorkvader]

be careful, I still suspect these are new enough to be cortron's rubberdomes.

Still you're right. Darn tempting. Millitary grade rubber domes are often very nice.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You mean the rubber dome magnetic valve switches, or rubber dome over membrane, or …?

[dorkvader]

You mean the rubber dome magnetic valve switches, or rubber dome over membrane, or …?

No, I think they replaced the buckling rubber sleeve magnetic switches (if they used them at all: I thought that was a devlin, not cortronics thing, though I could be wrong) with more "normal" rubber domes.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The magnetic valve switch is an ITW patented design. There are two patents, for two different variants of the switch. At some point they brought out an open-top, low-profile version that replaced the coil spring (linear switch) with a rubber dome (tactile switch) — this gets mistaken for a RAFI design, as it's similar to some of their switches. This low-profile version tooling was later sold to Devlin by ITW, who continued to manufacture these switches until 2005.

I presume by "normal" rubber domes, you mean rubber domes over pressure (three-layer) membrane?