Are Mechanical Keyswitches Healthier for you?

[Korbin]

I have heard that touch typist on mechanical keyboards are less likely to develop RSI related injuries. Has anyone heard or read any research on this?

I noticed that 2 companies that make "health conscious" keyboards use cherry mechanical switches (Maltron, kinesis) so it makes me think that it is possible that there is some truth to this.

[Warm Woolly Sheep]

I'm interested in this as well, but from what I remember, there haven't been any serious studies on it.

[iMav]

I think we have a few people here that can attest to the fact that slamming your fingers to the bottom of a mushy, membrane keyboard day in and day out has caused them significant pain.

[puntium]

Heh, I find the opposite, sort of. A proper ergo split keyboard is better for me than any standard layout keyboard with mechanical switches. (This is me comparing belkin or MS ergo keyboards with HHKB/Realforce/IBM/Tactile Pro/IceKey keyboards)

The best would be a ergo keyboard with mechanical switches, but there are only wild layouts (maltron, kinesis).

There's a Cherry ergo 5000 plus, but I can't find anyone that sells it. Unclear if it's still even in production.

[xsphat]

Cherry ergo 5000 plus is no longer in production. What's worse, I saw one on eBay a few months ago go for like $380 US.

[jemkeys]

I think we have a few people here that can attest to the fact that slamming your fingers to the bottom of a mushy, membrane keyboard day in and day out has caused them significant pain.

I agree.  The reason I originally got a Model M was because slamming my fingers hard on the mushy rubber membrane Dell keyboard hurt real bad.  All the pain went away after I got the Model M.

[Korbin]

I think we have a few people here that can attest to the fact that slamming your fingers to the bottom of a mushy, membrane keyboard day in and day out has caused them significant pain.

LOL I almost fell out of my chair laughing .

It's too bad that it seems like 98% of the keyboards sold are membrane. But it still makes you wonder why maltron and kinesis chose to use mechanical switches since membrane is so much cheaper and readily available.

[xsphat]

I don't understand anything about the way Maltron and Kinesis think. I never tried either board, but I think they would make the experience of writing on a computer less satisfying. Sure they use Cherry browns, but I don't all the time, and the boards kind of look creepy to me.

[ashort]

I think we have a few people here that can attest to the fact that slamming your fingers to the bottom of a mushy, membrane keyboard day in and day out has caused them significant pain.

--raised hand with surgery scar

[vils]

I don't understand anything about the way Maltron and Kinesis think. I never tried either board, but I think they would make the experience of writing on a computer less satisfying. Sure they use Cherry browns, but I don't all the time, and the boards kind of look creepy to me.

Maltron explains  why they use these switches.
http://www.maltron.com/maltron-cherry-mx.html
Not so much about ergonomics more about reliability.
And I suppose that membrane could be complicated to use in some of their layouts.

/Vils

[puntium]

Yes I'm pretty sure Kinesis/Maltron use the high end switches because if you type enough to get RSI, then you're going to need a keyboard that lasts. If you're gonna pay 300$ for a keyboard, it had better last 10 years.

I have a lot of colleagues at work that use the Kinesis and they swear by it. I've also used it for a month or so and can attest to the fact that it is very comfortable and easy to type on once you get used to the layout. The problem for me was that I couldn't type on any other keyboard. Once you get used to backspacing with your right thumb, it's hard to live without.

It also annoys me that the Kinesis doesn't have enough thumb modifier keys to support all of ctrl, alt, and win on both sides. You have to use the remapping to decide which you use most frequently, and have one of the relegated to the right side of the keyboard.

[xsphat]

If you're gonna pay 300$ for a keyboard, it had better last 10 years.

Let's see where we fair with all our HHKB Pros in ten years ...

[djones]

I think it depends on the person. If you have RSI primarily in your wrists/forearms, your better off with a split keyboard. But if your RSI is in the hands itself, lighter mechanical keys are a must. but yea, build me a keyboard that splits like the kinesis maxim/goldtouch/microsoft naturals with keys like the HHKBproII and I'll pay $500 for it, no questions asked.

[bhtooefr]

There's also the Northgate Omnikey Evolution...

And there is a place selling it still...

And, of course, there's the Model M15, if you want to shell out approximately $11ty billion.

[graywolf]

Let's see where we fair with all our HHKB Pros in ten years ...

Browsing old threads. This one made me laugh. It looks to me like your keyboards only last about 4 months, XSPhat

That is OK, I have been a serial collector (That is a guy who only keeps the last 3-4 items)  from time to time myself.

[xsphat]

Yeah yeah yeah, I'm a douche, I know.

I've been trying to stay away more lately since I have a feeling everyone here is getting a little sick of me.

[bigpook]

I wonder if the HHKB Pro's will last that long....Who here has the oldest one? And how is it holding up?

[bigpook]

Thats pretty harsh xsphat.
But after reading your post I now have that Morris Albert song looping in my head.
So yeah, maybe you are a douche...feelings, woah, woah woah, feelings .
My god, make it stop.

[xsphat]

...

[iMav]

If geekhack has a charter member, it is most-definately xsphat.  He was hanging around here when there was literally nothing but my ramblings to read.  

Geekhack would not have gotten off the ground without him.  We all owe him a heart-felt thank you!

[xsphat]

No one owes me anything, but if any of you wish to reciprocate, send me keyboards.

[graywolf]

Yeah yeah yeah, I'm a douche, I know.

I've been trying to stay away more lately since I have a feeling everyone here is getting a little sick of me.

That was not a put down, I would love to have the chance to use all the keyboards you have used. Besides, if you didn't who would review them for us?  Besides, my viewpoint is probably warped because I am reading all the old posts in a very short time. The only thing I find humorous about what you write is that you keep saying you are going to keep the one you are writing about forever; and I am sure you mean it, until another keyboard rides over the hill.

Truly, that is OK. Enjoy them.

[xsphat]

Yeah, I do tend to go through keyboards like underwear. I don't know what to get aside from the Topre 86 right now though.

[iMav]

Yeah, I do tend to go through keyboards like underwear. I don't know what to get aside from the Topre 86 right now though.

Does that mean that your plan to replace your recently-sold HHKB Pro 2 has changed?

[xsphat]

I always wanted one of these more. It would be on it's way to me already if I had my money yet, but that is not the case.

If I can get my hands on one of these, I plan to take it back and forth to work like I did my HHKB Pro 2.

[iMav]

Interesting.  AFAIC, the number one reason to own a HHKB is the key layout.  It is the perfect layout...it has a minimal numbers of keys, and yet, due to the intelligent design, I feel I am lacking on all other keyboards. (largely due to the great placement of the function-enabled keys)

What I consider the "standard" key layout (as seen on the Model M mini and your coveted 'board) is a fine second best...but for me, there is a big drop off between the two.

I believe you are the only person I "know" who has logged significant time on a HHKB and doesn't absolutely adore the layout.

[ashort]

Yeah yeah yeah, I'm a douche, I know.

I've been trying to stay away more lately since I have a feeling everyone here is getting a little sick of me.

Don't sweat it, you'd have to post at least 1,772 times before I'd think about being sick of you.

hehehehehe...

[parisnight]

The membrane (non BS) keyboards hurt.  An ergonomic layout may help in addition to mechanical switches.

Have you seen this person's keyboard?
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/

He presents an interesting prespective that even the light cherry browns and 30g activation switches on the best Topre boards require more force than is healthy.

[itlnstln]

The membrane (non BS) keyboards hurt.  An ergonomic layout may help in addition to mechanical switches.

Have you seen this person's keyboard?
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/

He presents an interesting prespective that even the light cherry browns and 30g activation switches on the best Topre boards require more force than is healthy.

Interesting.  I applaud his ingenuity; however, that thing is a mess.  If he can provide a casing for it, and, IMO, decent keycolors, I think it would be a pretty cool 'board.

[iMav]

Interesting.  I applaud his ingenuity; however, that thing is a mess.  If he can provide a casing for it, and, IMO, decent keycolors, I think it would be a pretty cool 'board.

I'll give up computing before I type on that thing on a daily basis.  

[itlnstln]

I'll give up computing before I type on that thing on a daily basis.  

The part I like the best is where he shows that disaster of wires and circuit boards then shows the "clean" picture of the layout below it.  I had to go back and forth a few times to see the layout in the pile of crap.  I also like how he rests the inside of the letter key halves on 1X2's to give them the ergonomic angle.  The only thing I would like to try on the board is the keyswitches to see if they are teh win!!1! like this guy suggests.  If he can make a production board with his (suggested, as the pile of plastic in the pictures looks nothing like) layout and switches, it might be pretty cool.  I know I would at least take a look.  I could definitely not use the extraneous shortcut keys strewn about all over the place, too.

[parisnight]

I'll give up computing before I type on that thing on a daily basis.  

Agreed the aesthetics are lacking, but he is trying to push the envelope of the human interface.  I find the ergonomic boards never have the appeal of a more conventional layouts.  Luckily my pain is in the fingers, so the good quality mechanical keys are the ticket.

Here's a point I've wanted to bring up and that is I grew up with all the good boards including the original IBM, SGI, Sun, Wang, PC98 etc.  The irony is that I never knew what I had back then, and more ironically, that those good boards were taken away without me being conscious of it.  There is a place for membranes, they are cheap and they do work pretty well, so I can't blame any company's decision to go to lower cost boards, but my fingers wish they would have known.

[graywolf]

I'll give up computing before I type on that thing on a daily basis.  

All my keyboards have tactile feedback, but the only one that clacks is the Model-M. The others are an IBM M3, and old eMachine keyboard, and a newish Labtech wireless in decreasing order of feedback. Those three are I am sure rubber ducky keyboards. All of them can be touch typed on as they make contact when they over-center and you do not need to bottom them out. Considering that I wonder how many dislike RD keyboards because they are not clacky?

As for the article linked above, he makes the mistake that many do thinking you have to have an index point to find the keys. Not so you eventually develop muscle memory for their location. I learned about that when I was taking mandolin lessons, my tutor insisted I float my picking hand, it was tough at first but eventually I could play (as well as I could considering I am not at all musical) that way. It was interesting because I had experienced professional mandolin players asking me how I could play with out resting my pinky on the soundboard like they did. Even typing this I notice that I am not resting my fingers on the home keys, but just floating my fingers maybe a 32nd of and inch above them.

I think one of the problems with keyboards for typists is that all to many keyboard designers are not typists, they better ones have studied typists, but since even the typists themselves often do not know what they actually are doing it is a wonder that there are any great keyboards out there.

[bhtooefr]

And I find that I need the home keys to locate myself...

[xsphat]

Interesting.  AFAIC, the number one reason to own a HHKB is the key layout.  It is the perfect layout...it has a minimal numbers of keys, and yet, due to the intelligent design, I feel I am lacking on all other keyboards. (largely due to the great placement of the function-enabled keys)

What I consider the "standard" key layout (as seen on the Model M mini and your coveted 'board) is a fine second best...but for me, there is a big drop off between the two.

I believe you are the only person I "know" who has logged significant time on a HHKB and doesn't absolutely adore the layout.

Sadly, I don't miss the HHKB Pro 2 at all. The switches were the reason I liked it and the Mac controls. I was a little sick of the Fn key for arrows, though. So now I have the Model M 84 key and I have mapped the volume controls and restart / shut down to the F key row and think I have the best of both worlds now still in a small(er) form factor. I also want to replace the HHKB Lite 1 at work with an IBM space saver II

[parisnight]

I could never figure out all those extra keys that popped up when the IBM PC came out.  I'm a programmer (vi, emacs, screen) and that may be the HHKB target niche.  Now if the HHKB was 30g on all keys even xsphat might have to change his mind back.  Oh, he's enjoying the clickys now.

[xsphat]

Remember, the Cherry browns are WAY too light for me. And I really enjoyed the Topre switch the way it was.

[xsphat]

And mind you, I still think the HHKB Pro 2 is one best keyboards ever made, I just don't own one anymore.