Author Topic: Why double-shots over dyesub?  (Read 4554 times)

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Offline babyhands

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Why double-shots over dyesub?
« on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:35:44 »
I was just curious as to why people would ever get double shots over dyesubs? Especially because dyesubs are normally PBT and doubleshots are ABS, it doesnt make sense. Is it for the novelty? Like using double shots that were taken off of an old keyboard or something?

Offline Halverson

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:37:31 »
Doubleshots are tight.

Offline Photekq

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:38:42 »
Double shots give you greater detail. I don't know whether you own any dyesubs but you should notice that the lettering isn't very sharp at the edges, especially on the alt or ctrl keys. PBT is not better than ABS - It's all personal opinion, just like red switches aren't better than blues.

Usually people take the caps off old boards because that's the only place they can get that particular colour scheme. However, once Originative releases more sets and gets his act together people might stop taking them off the board and instead buy new ones.

Also, unless you're using Imsto's caps as an example, original Cherry doubleshots are much thicker than PBT dyesubs.

Offline Jocelyn

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:38:56 »
The reasons I've seen are usually things like colorways, greater detail, or more subjective things like touch, feel, sound, etc.

ABS is not better than PBT - It's all personal opinion, just like red switches aren't better than blues.
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« Last Edit: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:46:02 by Jocelyn »

Offline Grim Fandango

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:42:26 »
The color and variety they come in, crispness of the legends, and because PBT does not feel objectively better even though most people seem to prefer it.
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Offline Photekq

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 17:43:24 »
ABS is not better than PBT - It's all personal opinion, just like red switches aren't better than blues.

This really :)

The ol' switcheroo ;)

Offline thegunner100

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 18:11:02 »
I'll take my topre dyesubs over thin SP DS any day. One reason why people like using DS because it's much cheaper than dyesub.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 19:24:24 »
With dye-sublimation you can only get darker colours on lighter backgrounds. This means that you can't dye-sublimate white text on black, "cream cheese" on green, etc. Those types of colour schemes are best made with double-shot moulding.

Right now, practically all double-shot moulded sets are made from ABS, because it is apparently more difficult to mould PBT, especially in multiple injections. There are some double-shot PBT keys out there, but only things such as single keys small keys. Techkeys has a few novelty keys in double-shot PBT and Signature Plastics has double-shot arrow sets on PimpMyKeyboard.com.

Also, unless you're using Imsto's caps as an example, original Cherry doubleshots are much thicker than PBT dyesubs.
Actually, Cherry's original PBT dye-subs were the same thickness as Cherry doubleshots. Cherry made them only during a short timespan. The quality and the rarity makes these key caps quite expensive on the collector's market. (look out for a G80-3000SAU)
Cherry quickly transitioned to lasering thick PBT keys from the same moulds, and then they changed their moulds to cast thinner keys. Stabilised PBT keycaps (Space Bar, large Shift keys, Enter, Backspace etc) on the G80 series are still thick, while the G81 (Cherry MY) keyboards got thinner keys with different stabilisers.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 April 2013, 19:31:54 by Findecanor »
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Offline Photekq

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 19:34:15 »
Actually, Cherry's original PBT dye-subs were the same thickness as Cherry doubleshots. Cherry made them only during a short timespan. The quality and the rarity makes these key caps quite expensive on the collector's market. (look out for a G80-3000SAU)
Cherry quickly transitioned to lasering thick PBT keys from the same moulds, and then they changed their moulds to cast thinner keys. Stabilised PBT keycaps (Space Bar, large Shift keys, Enter, Backspace etc) on the G80 series are still thick, while the G81 (Cherry MY) keyboards got thinner keys with different stabilisers.
My bad. I don't know much about Cherry PBTs. I was mainly referring to the other PBTs that are still being produced and that are usually thin like SPs keycaps.

Offline Michael

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 19:47:44 »
I think the more important question here is, 'how soon until full double-shot PBT sets?' A few companies have already started, so it won't be long until we start seeing full sets.

Offline babyhands

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 28 April 2013, 09:42:55 »
But dont ABS keys get shiny and PBT doesnt? Wouldnt this be a big deal for people who are spending hundreds of dollars to make their keyboards look great?

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 28 April 2013, 09:44:11 »
I agree the number one reason is light legend on darker key color to go ABS doubleshot right now. As process refinement progresses, these limitations will decrease with either PBT doubleshots or inverse 3D dyesub process. Other consideration is cost. PBT still cost more than ABS in general.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 30 April 2013, 16:25:55 »
I have doubleshots from various keyboards from 1977 - 2013, and I don't really see the "dyesub is less precise" issue. My "imprecise" dyesubs are from ancient IBM keyboards. I have IBM dyesubs that look excellent. Modern imsto dyesubs are very clear.

It's no secret that I prefer PBT. Dyesubs offer several things doubleshots don't, specifically multiple colours (multicoloured doubleshots are called tripleshots or quadruple shots, depending on the exact process involved and the number of injection moulds used) as well as gradients. Of course the whole "darker colours" issue hasn't been addressed yet. You could dyesub all of a pbt keycap except the legend.

As far as material differences between ABS and PBT, PBT is harder, more corrosion resistant and more brittle. The brittleness is usually more of a factor in shipping keycaps, and the other aspects are generally superior for the purpose of keycap use. Many people report PBT keycaps not getting shiny as fast. PBT is also more expensive.

Now: about legends. Properly made dyesubs can be just as clear as ABS doubleshots. I have seen doubleshots where the legend is not as "crisp" as what some people evidently think. Because of this,a nd other reasons, I prefer dyesub PBT. How fortunate for me that it is also available for my favourite keyswitch technology: buckling spring.

Nevertheless, as ABS and PBT are different materials, ABS and doubleshot ABS have their place. While I might prefer PBT in general, ABS doubleshots are cheaper, easier to get, are in general an excellent keycap making technology, and have a different "feel" that others might prefer.

Me, I want doubleshot POM :)

Offline eth0s

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 02 May 2013, 19:35:29 »
Me, I want doubleshot POM :)

Can we be doubleshot POM bro's? 'cuz I want them too.  I loves the POM.
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Offline Rule16

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 02 May 2013, 21:01:13 »
But dont ABS keys get shiny and PBT doesnt? Wouldnt this be a big deal for people who are spending hundreds of dollars to make their keyboards look great?
Feel>cosmetics and in novelty keys something like that doesn't matter, and must use DoubleShot for novelty.
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Offline kboardvintage

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Re: Why double-shots over dyesub?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 03 May 2013, 14:35:16 »
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43104.0 for the best DYE SUB sets you will ever find :)