Author Topic: Question about Cherry switches (Read 8130 times)

zwmalone · « **on:** Tue, 15 July 2008, 20:32:45 »

Hi! First post... Ok, I just bought this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110268951418

It has Cherry ML switches, and I'm wondering what they feel like... are they clicky at all like my Model M's keys?

And if possible, can you tell me the feel of the different cherry switches?

thanks, Zack

ashort · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 15 July 2008, 21:13:47 »

Dang I saw the keyboard and thought it would say the seller is in Wisconsin. =-D

Cherry MLs are mildy tactile and non-clicky. I use a Cherry G84-4100 (also uses ML switches) every day and I like it alot. I think there is a lot of room for improvement, but it has to be a challenge given the laptop size of the keyboard. There is a tactile response to the key activation, with a couple of mm play in the switch after that to the bottom.

Very NOT Model M, but in a compact keyboard with a full set of keys (physical keys, ala NOT the HHKB Pro), I don't think you'll get much better. We had some hope in the Mighty Mouse with Buckling springs, but it appears that has disintegrated into a pipe-dream.

xsphat has or had this keyboard. Does it really use MLs?

zwmalone · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 15 July 2008, 21:31:07 »

Thanks for the information and quick reply, ashort. I am going to continue using my model m for daily use, the Datalux was bought for use on my Thinkpad which only sees desk use anyway. I can't stand membrane keyboards, so I thought I would give this a try. And, as far as I know, this keyboard does use Cherry ML switches, as well as support full n-key rollover, according to http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=288.
Zack

xsphat · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 15 July 2008, 21:49:47 »

I just sold one almost like that to a guy in Korea. What I didn't like about that keyboard is that the keys are not full size - they are full width and 3/4 size long. That coupled with the way the rows raised (Mind you, the model I had was sloped like a typewriter) made the thing a chore to type on. Maybe that model is different.

But the Cherry ML switch is pretty nice. Shorter throw but mechanical, and it is a true linear switch.

zwmalone · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 15 July 2008, 23:09:35 »

Thanks xsphat for the info about the key size, very informative. I don't know how well I will like this keyboard, but I only payed $17 for it with shipping, so it's not a major loss if I don't like it. I was looking at the Datalux website, this keyboard is the desk model Muruc, it is also curved like a typewriter. It is going to be used with my ThinkPad, so I will not be using it much, so the typing chore you are referring to will not bother me much. I will probably replace it with an EnduraPro when I get the funds. Oh, and if anyone knows, is Unicomp's "enhanced quiet touch technology" still buckling spring? Thanks, Zack

xsphat · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 00:20:58 »

No prob on the Datalux info.

I don't know what enhanced quiet touch thing is. If it's an option, get the buckling springs. Why else are you shopping for a Unicomp keyboard?

zwmalone · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 02:47:06 »

xsphat, I was wondering because the thinkpad is downstairs, in a quieter environment. I can stand, in fact I prefer the sound of Buckling Springs, but alas, my family does not. I was wondering if it was just a quieter version of the buckling springs.

xsphat · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 03:28:31 »

Maybe someone else here will know, I'm not real big on the buckling springs. My family got used to my typing on the Alps switches, thankfully, right away.

iMav · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 05:51:14 »

If somebody doesn't like the sound of my keyboard, they can feel free to exit my office. (and close the door behind them!)

itlnstln · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 07:25:54 »

Quote from: iMav;6604

If somebody doesn't like the sound of my keyboard, they can feel free to exit my office. (and close the door behind them!)

10-4! I just switched to an Alps-based keyboard from a Model M, and it is certainly louder (if not different, noise-wise), so I know I am pissing some people off around the office. Oh well...

Zwmalone, I do believe the "enhanced quiet touch" thing is a rubber dome keyboard. The clickykeys website says so, anyway. For the record, all Model M's are membrane keyboards; the buckling-spring keys push a hammer which presses on the membrane. You can see a diagram of this as well on clickykeys.com.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 08:55:42 »

For $40 and the loss of the warranty (on top of the purchase price of the keyboard,) I've heard that Unicomp will grease the springs for you, which will significantly reduce the noise.

Of course, you could always just get a used SpaceSaver (the 84-key one,) and grease it yourself.

Buying an "Enhanced Quiet Touch" Unicomp board is like buying a sports car with a 3-cylinder engine.

zwmalone · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 13:48:28 »

itlnstln, according to the link bhtooefr gave me, the only difference between quiet touch and Buckling Springs is the grease. I'm probably going to buy a SpaceSaver and do it myself, as I can't get a definite answer.

itlnstln · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 14:25:12 »

zwmalone, Soft Touch has the grease; Quiet Touch is rubber dome.

zwmalone · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 16 July 2008, 19:56:40 »

thanks. Depending on whether or not I like the Datalux, I will go with a soft touch keyboard. -Zack

bhtooefr · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 18 July 2008, 10:32:20 »

Genuine soft touch keyboards aren't at all cheap, though - $245 from IBM, and it says to call for availability. (Part number 8184692, see here: http://www-132.ibm.com/content/home/store_IBMPublicUSA/en_US/parts/parts_main.html - but, you do get a speaker built in - that's what the speaker grille in the bottom of the Model M is for, the "internal" speaker in an IBM RS/6000 - and I believe it comes with the RS/6000 cable (which has all six pins connected, and is fairly rare,) so if you ever have an IBM RS/6000 workstation, that keyboard will do everything on it.

)

And, like I said, no warranty and $40 upcharge if Unicomp did it for you on one of their boards - and the cheapest you'll get out of there with is $100, if you do it to a Customizer 101.

zwmalone · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 18 July 2008, 15:42:04 »

Thanks for the info, bhtooefr. Is that keyboard really worth $245 or are Unicomp 'boards reliable enough that I can forgo the warranty?

bigpook · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 18 July 2008, 17:01:03 »

What kind of grease are you using?

bhtooefr · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 18 July 2008, 23:13:16 »

Well, I'll say that I've used the warranty on my EnduraPro 104, but I will note that it was a mouse-related issue, and the keyboard part was still perfectly functional.

zwmalone · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 01:58:34 »

OK, I'm thinking about doing the greasing myself as shown in the link provided. I don't want to risk damaging my beloved 1391401, so I was thinking about buying this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Unicomp-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-PS2-German-NEW_W0QQitemZ140187591235QQihZ004QQcategoryZ51084QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247 to do it on, but my question is, can a QWERTZ keyboard be rearranged to use the QWERTY layout?

xsphat · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 02:21:46 »

What kind of grease is it? My Model M just sits in a Rubbermaid tub most of the time and I got it for free anyway, so I'd be willing to try this on it. I've gone to all the links in this thread but one of them is dead and I didn't see what kind of grease was used anywhere.

zwmalone · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 02:27:57 »

According to http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/model_m_trivia.html you would use silicone grease. I'm gonna try this as soon as I get another M.

zwmalone · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 02:35:51 »

here's a link that explains in depth the soft touch keyboard and the silicone grease: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsandy55.fc2web.com%2Fkeyboard%2Fmodel_m_soft.html&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

xsphat · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 02:53:35 »

Thanks.

zwmalone · « **Reply #23 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 02:57:14 »

Your welcome, also, is $30 plus $15 shipping to much for a HHKB Lite? (I know it's off topic, but it's too small a question to post in it's own thread)

xsphat · « **Reply #24 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 03:05:56 »

That's close to what I got mine for and it's great to leave at work, so yeah, that sounds fine. Be warned that the feel of it may be hit or miss ...

Mine is the first Lite and it's black. I've heard I have a really rare one.

Do you have an HHKB Pro?

zwmalone · « **Reply #25 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 03:10:13 »

no, I can't afford one :-( Including my Model M and my Datalux, I've only spent $28.20

xsphat · « **Reply #26 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 03:37:59 »

You don't even know what I have spent on keyboards in the last year. In fact, neither do I.

zwmalone · « **Reply #27 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 03:50:38 »

I'm hoping to spend some real money on a good keyboard, but I don't know what kind yet. If I buy another model M and the HHKB lite, the keyboard I intend on buying is the Das Keyboard Ultimate.

Korbin · « **Reply #28 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 09:35:43 »

Quote from: xsphat;6698

You don't even know what I have spent on keyboards in the last year. In fact, neither do I.

I just may have you topped. And I change mine out like a housewife changes her shoes

xsphat · « **Reply #29 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 12:10:08 »

Quote from: Korbin;6700

I just may have you topped. And I change mine out like a housewife changes her shoes

Speaking as a man WITH a housewife, that's a lot! How often do you swap keyboards? I change mine out at least twice a week.

iMav · « **Reply #30 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 13:00:26 »

Quote from: xsphat;6702

Speaking as a man WITH a housewife, that's a lot! How often do you swap keyboards? I change mine out at least twice a week.

My wife has a reasonable number of shoes. She rotates between a 2 or 3 pairs. Definitely nothing ridiculous.

I rarely move from my HHKB Pro.

xsphat · « **Reply #31 on:** Sat, 19 July 2008, 14:55:29 »

My wife changes her shoes about 3-4 times a day.

And no matter what keyboard I use, I always end up back on the HHKB Pro 2. Let's face it - it is the reigning king of keyboards.

But I do like to have choices ...

Korbin · « **Reply #32 on:** Sun, 20 July 2008, 16:41:20 »

Quote from: xsphat;6702

Speaking as a man WITH a housewife, that's a lot! How often do you swap keyboards? I change mine out at least twice a week.

hah! Well I have to admit that I only change mine out once a week. I guess I underestimated how often some wives change their shoes

xsphat · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun, 20 July 2008, 16:58:05 »

so did I brother, so did I.

Eclairz · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 20 July 2008, 19:13:53 »

Currently using G80-3000 blue cherry at home and my compaq mx 11800 brown cherry at work although I will swap between this and the G84-4100 black ML cherry for work. I plan to get a G80-1800 black cherry and slowly change it to brown cherry for compactness with typability

poonsmjj · « **Reply #35 on:** Fri, 01 August 2008, 16:55:17 »

Quote from: Eclairz;6753

Currently using G80-3000 blue cherry at home and my compaq mx 11800 brown cherry at work although I will swap between this and the G84-4100 black ML cherry for work. I plan to get a G80-1800 black cherry and slowly change it to brown cherry for compactness with typability

Hi there, new to the forums, finally gonna show my face

Eclairz, how do you like the G80-3000? Is the build quality good and how much did it cost you? I'm having difficulty deciding between this keyboard and the majestouch... unfortunately being in Canada has made it somewhat difficult to find a nice keyboard without it being overly expensive due to shipping from the US or otherwise.

The reason why I'm asking is b/c I've discovered that it is possible to purchase the G80-3000LSMRC-2 (Blue Cherry Switches...... http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.pcdvd.com.tw%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D1077561279&lp=zt_en&btnTrUrl=Translate) locally but I'm not sure whether it's worth just saving up some more money and going for the Majestouch. (G80 costs about $80 Canadian ... majestouch I'm assuming is at least $140+??)

What I'm really looking for is a full-sized keyboard with nice tactile feel, WITH windows key (so I suppose 104-key?). I've been lurking and reading about how most enjoy the brown cherry switches - are the blue ones that much worse? My current keyboard is a keytronic kt800b membrane keyboard so to be honest I'm thinking any mechanical keyboard would be much better than this one.

Anyone have suggestions? Thanks!

Eclairz · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 01 August 2008, 18:21:15 »

The blue cherrys feel abit lighter, and this is by some small amount, people who have 'evolved' heavy fingers after using the IBM Model M Keyboards, will feel that the touch is too light, especially after reaching the click point after which the keys will give way. But for people new to mechanical keyboards like I have will undoubtedly feel this is a good compromise for our less muscle bound fingers.

If you like your brown cherrys then the blue cherrys provide a little less tactile(touch) feel and much more positive audible(sound) response so you do not have to train your finger muscle memory on touch alone. Think of your car it is much easier to find the biting point with audio as well as tactile differences. The same goes with keyboards, however good typists will beable to use a brown keyboard still and really good typists will probably be able to use linear black cherry keyboards.

At the end of the day its also preference, the white alps have a slightly different tone to cherry blues and therefore some people like one sound over the other, I myself think the alps sound is better as xsphat just prefers alps and has an emotional preference of alps over cherry probably due to his initial keyboard scarring upon using macs alot and only macs and his disgust of pcs and so he hasn't come round to pc stuff as much ;-).

Anywho the Filco are expensive than the cherry because they have better build quality i hear that the key caps are made out of metal instead of plastic so im sure they will last much longer than your usual grade key caps. Some filcos are also able to handle n-key rollover and cherrys do not at least mine doesn't >_<. The overall cherry g80-3000 seems fairly robust, but it is designed for desktop use and not for being carried around. On another note you might want to consider the DAS 3 keyboards in the American format or blank european format, these keyboards use cherry blues as well and support n-key rollover, blank keys, usb hub, smaller form factor, dust magnetism(great for dusty rooms), geek/cool factor

xsphat · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 01 August 2008, 18:34:48 »

I like my Macs, but I don't think I'm scarred by Alps at all. They are the first ones I used, true, but that has nothing to do with me not liking Cherry or Windows. I have owned 104 key keyboards, and both the Model M I just sold and the Northgate have 101 PC layouts. On the Filco, it was easy to map the keys so they worked identical to Macs, but the menu key on the right side usually is dead no matter what.

I'm more accurate on Alps or Topre switches than any others on the planet, and the Alps sound better and feel better to write on than the Topre. Me and Cherry switches just don't go together very well, though I have tried time and again.

By the way, I just wrote this post on rubber domes ...

Eclairz · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 02 August 2008, 20:25:41 »

It was just a joke xsphat ;-) I know you use windows keyboards and have a very balanced view of keyboard culture. You just prefer non cherry keys and thats just called being subjective, hell I know people who love quiet spongy keyboards, I won't tell them to get a better keyboard but i will tell them there are alternative options and allow them to test my keyboards.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 02 August 2008, 22:37:35 »

I tried to get a friend to try the alternative option called "the Model M," and she refused, because she was afraid she'd like it, when she had a "perfectly good" rubber dome keyboard.

(The rubber dome keyboard in question was a Dell USB one... although, admittedly, it was one that turned out well...)

xsphat · « **Reply #40 on:** Sun, 03 August 2008, 04:11:22 »

Quote from: Eclairz;7066

It was just a joke xsphat ;-) I know you use windows keyboards and have a very balanced view of keyboard culture. You just prefer non cherry keys and thats just called being subjective, hell I know people who love quiet spongy keyboards, I won't tell them to get a better keyboard but i will tell them there are alternative options and allow them to test my keyboards.

No man, I didn't mean to sound testy. I just like to ring in whenever I can. I am subjective, and the only switches I openly speak against are the Cherry blacks. I like that you call it keyboard culture, too. I never thought of it as that before.

ashort · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 03 August 2008, 07:30:56 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;7071

I tried to get a friend to try the alternative option called "the Model M," and she refused, because she was afraid she'd like it, when she had a "perfectly good" rubber dome keyboard.

That's when you pull an Inspector Clouseau: Grab the keyboard, smash it to bits, then say (in your best fake french accent) "Not any more!"

=-D

bhtooefr · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 03 August 2008, 10:19:46 »

I had half a mind to do this to it (not to ruin it, but just because we always used to mess around like this): http://www.howcast.com/videos/2656-How-To-Grow-Grass-in-Someones-Keyboard

We don't talk any more, though, so it's a non-issue...

bigpook · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 03 August 2008, 11:06:46 »

you could probably get away with this on a model M. It may even be usable : ) Just trim the grass on occasion with some scissors. On second thought, it may slow your typing down a bit.
We could call it jungle typing.

Korbin · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 03 August 2008, 11:32:06 »

Quote from: Eclairz;7050

If you like your brown cherrys then the blue cherrys provide a little less tactile(touch) feel and much more positive audible(sound) response so you do not have to train your finger muscle memory on touch alone. Think of your car it is much easier to find the biting point with audio as well as tactile differences. The same goes with keyboards, however good typists will beable to use a brown keyboard still and really good typists will probably be able to use linear black cherry keyboards.

Well said Eclairz. I know that most of the keyboardist here enjoy clicky switches. Personally, I enjoy the fact that there are switches where you don't have to slam you fingers into the backboard to actuate the key. Bottoming out the keys is what I dislike the most with membrane boards because it is "required".

I do have to admit that it took a while to consistently find the actuation point on the cherry blacks (and a little bit on the topre switches) since the pressure is linear, but once I found it I enjoyed the light touch.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 27 October 2008, 18:24:06 »

Could someone post some audio of a greased buckling spring (or a unicomp soft touch)? Would love to hear how much difference the grease makes on the buckling spring clatter...

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Author Topic: Question about Cherry switches (Read 8130 times)