MX Red and Brown differences?

[Kiraaaa]

I hear people saying MX Reds are "too light" and so it is easy to make mistakes/accidentally press something, but I never heard this problem with Browns and both switches have a 45g actuation force.

At first I was determined on getting Browns for the tactile bump but I pretty much bottom out regardless, so I am considering getting MX Reds since they seem easier to get my hands on compared to a keyboard that uses MX Browns.

I have tried Blue, Black, and Brown switches and never had a problem with accidental key presses. I have never tried Reds, but am worried about them being "too light".

1) Are MX Reds just Browns but without the tactile bump? Or is there any other differences to note?
2) Has anyone experienced the same problem with Browns being "too light" like the Reds?
3) Since I don't have this problem with Browns, will Reds not be a problem either? Or are Reds really that much different than browns?
4) Which of the two do you use (if you do), and why? What are some other advantages/disadvantages that I should consider between these two switches?

Thanks

[kenmai9]

I've used both. MX reds to me are too light. Browns are also very light, but with a bump. I personally like harder switches, so I got black and I love it. I make less mistakes because I have to press harder for each button. I'm looking to try out MX Greens though, they're harder blues and I think I would like that.

[Photoelectric]

Browns are my favorite switch.  Reds are my least favorite switch out of the common ones.  That's how much of a difference I feel there is between the two.  Having the bump helps with knowing when actuation happens.  Also, look at the force diagram for Browns and compare it to one for Reds.  45g actuation force is not the full story.  To get to the actuation point with Browns, you overcome a bump that takes more than 45g of force.  Whereas with Reds, it's just a pure spring force, starts out very light, and nothing stops you until you bottom out.  I like to touch type softly, and Browns are perfect for it.  Reds were very difficult to not bottom out, and for non-typing, I like Blacks more.  They are by far not as heavy as some make them out to be. 

Trying them all out yourself and making a personal comparison is the only way to really know.

[ImperfectLink]

For the noob, Browns feel more like rubber dome and Reds just mush til you hit the bottom. If you've tried Black, it's more or less the same but stiffer. I think that you're more prone to bottoming out with the Brown than the Red cause of that initial actuation force followed by a short distance to the bottom.

[Photoelectric]

I don't think browns are anything like rubber domes.  They were my first switch, and they felt distinctively different.  If anything, I find MX Black more rubberdome-like myself.

[ImperfectLink]

Sorry I should have said IMO. In the end, Browns are what I prefer anyway, from my limited expertise.

[Kiraaaa]

Interesting how different the two are.
I did check out the force diagrams and tried to compare them, but wasn't exactly sure what I was looking at lol. So I decided to just ask people who actually experienced the switches themselves.
Like I said, I tend to bottom out anyway.. so I was trying to figure out if there would be any reason to go for one switch over the other.
Photoelectric, you mentioned he prefers the Blacks over the Reds for non-typing. So this means if you were to write an essay or something, you would opt for the Reds over the Blacks?

Also, Photoelectric said "Reds were very difficult to not bottom out" whereas ImperfectLink says " I think that you're more prone to bottoming out with the Brown than the Red". Conflicting messages :S But again... I bottom out regardless since I'm used to rubber domes.

[Photoelectric]

There's no way to get a good idea from reading other people's impressions.  I'm afraid you have to try all of those switches yourself.  No one can tell you how you will end up doing with particular switches, as a lot depends on how you type, how much force you typically exert with your fingers, what angle your arms / wrists are at, how tall your seat is vs. your desk, etc., etc.

[Grim Fandango]

1) Are MX Reds just Browns but without the tactile bump? Or is there any other differences to note?

Different people would answer this in different ways. I would say yes, they are similar but with a tactile bump. But it is not "just" a tactile bump. To me, this changes the feel and characteristics of the key considerably. So even if that is the main difference, it is not an insignificant one.

2) Has anyone experienced the same problem with Browns being "too light" like the Reds?

They do have the same actuation force, but if I had not read about this fact, I would have sworn browns felt heavier. It is because it is not a linear switch and the tactile bump brings some variation in the resistance as you press the switch. This also made it much easier for me not to have any accidental keypresses. The reds are easier to press accidentally because there is nothing "warning" you about the point of actuation. With browns, I do not press the key past the tactile bump unless I intend to. It is kind of hard to describe because it is not really a conscious process, it is just the way your fingers respond to the feel of the key.

3) Since I don't have this problem with Browns, will Reds not be a problem either? Or are Reds really that much different than browns?

There is not guarantee. I had that problems with reds. And it is not like I tried them for a day and decided I do not like them. I tried reds before I ever used browns, and used a keyboard with reds intensively for about a year. Even though I loved the feel of them, accidental keypresses remained an issue for me. Getting browns solved this problem pretty much completely. Though that does not mean that you would experience the same thing. I think the two switches are considerable different however.

4) Which of the two do you use (if you do), and why? What are some other advantages/disadvantages that I should consider between these two switches?

I use browns, but can really see the appeal of reds. Honestly, if I could not use browns and had to stick to reds I would still be pretty happy. I do not think there are clear advantages or disadvantages to using either one, for gaming or typing, I think it comes down to preference. One thing I will say though is that is seems possible for me not to bottom out on browns ( even though I do not do it consistently), not bottoming out on reds felt completely impossible for me, even though I am sure there are typing ninjas that manage to do so.

[Kiraaaa]

I agree that Blacks are very similar to rubber dome. Which I kind of like because I'm used to it.. but at the same time, that kind of defeats the purpose of paying the extra $ to "upgrade" to mechanical when it just feels the same as RD.

Yea, I understand that I ultimately need to try the switch myself.. but right now I am not exactly able to do that, and just interested to know what the appeal of Reds are.
I never considered Reds before, but recently started convincing myself that they're not much different from browns and thus led me to make this thread. At this point I'm pretty sold on the Browns once again.
And it seems like most people prefer the Browns. Is there ANY case where you guys would use the Reds over the Browns?
I'm pretty much just looking for any reason to continue considering Reds, else I'll just stick with the Browns lol.

Sorry for beating a dead horse, but kind of waiting for someone who actually uses Reds to chime in and give their reasons as to why they use Reds instead of Browns or something else. Interested to know why people choose Reds. I know it's personal preference.. but do people really not like the tactile bump of the Browns? Or is there some other reason? Because to me, the tactile bump of Browns really light and can't see how this can be a real problem.

Thanks again for all the input.

[Photoelectric]

I think you're missing the point.  The point is this: to each their own.  You will find people who love typing on Reds and people who hate typing on Reds.  People who prefer Browns, and people who prefer Greens, and people who prefer Topre.  You have to try them all yourself.  I used to think I could read a lot of reviews and form my opinion from them, but every time when I actually physically tested switches myself for the first time, a lot of my preconceptions would go out of the window.

Someone can easily tell you that Reds are perfect, and another person will say that anything under buckling spring actuation force is going to be automatically far too light and mushy.

[IvanIvanovich]

Yes, it is all preference which is why there are several MX switch types available. While all have some similarities, they are all difference too. Personally I favor reds for absolutely everything. If reds were no longer available for some reason I would go back to putting lighter springs in blacks switches to make reds myself. My second choice is white with lighter springs, blacks third, then blues forth. I don't like clear, and especially despise browns. Why I don't like browns? After using linear switch for so long they just feel like defective to me, and if I want tactile switch they suck to me compared to white or blue.

[Kiraaaa]

I already stated I'm already set on Browns now. I'm asking purely out of curiousity, in hopes to learn something I might not have known before from simply graphs, force diagrams, and descriptions.

Anyway, one last question.. Blues are known for their double tap issues.. do Brown switches have the same problem or no?

[Photoelectric]

I don't have any such issues with my Browns.  If you get a good batch of smooth Browns, I think you'll like them   Something you should know about blues is their click is VERY audible.  It's not a soft click--it can be very loud.  It's loud on my Filco.

[jonathanyu]

I feel red are too heavy to me

[Photoelectric]

I feel red are too heavy to me

You must have spider fingers

[litster]

You have got to buy them all to try them all.  Use each for a week before you decide which you like best.  It is the Geek Hack way.

[Kiraaaa]

Yep, I already have a QuickFire Stealth in Blues.
I always hated blue and knew they weren't for me.. but I picked one up anyway like a fool.
At first I didn't want it because of the click, then when I actually used it I quickly ran into the double tap issue and now I'm already looking to sell it. So Blues and Greens are definitely not an option for me.

I also have a Black switch kb in the basement which I don't use because the layout is just horrible and I refuse to use it.
My bro has the Trigger in Browns which I like, which led me to buy a G710+, but didn't like it enough to justify the $99 so I returned it.

I only had my hands on the Reds for a few minutes while at the local computer store, and was surprised that they weren't as bad as I thought or as many others made them out to be lol. But still not enough time with it to actually make a real decision.

Anyway, I never ran into the double tap issue with Browns after longer periods of time compared to the couple minutes with the Blues before I instantly noticed double tap issues. So do Browns not have this problem at all, or are the chances of it happening on Browns just lower?

[litster]

Kiraaa, you play Starcraft 2 and double tap a lot?  People do use blues and browns to play SC2, including pros.  So it is doable.  Blues' actuation point and reset point are different, make double taps with longer up and down travels.  Browns have almost the same actuation point and reset point location.  But if Blues and Browns give you grief, then Reds and Blacks are your only choices, because they are linear.

[Lighthouse1]

I really like the browns I use at work but I find I type faster on the blues I have at home, but they are a lot noisier in general (even if you do not bottom out they are truly named clicky). I tried a red board recently and didn't like the feel at all, for me it was a bit neither here nor there, not as feel sensitive as blues, not as comfortable as the browns. It was ANSI though so the layout probably didn't help either. I shall probably sell it.

I've never noticed an issue in games with the blues or browns. It probably depends how you play. All these things are so individual its not surprising there are different switch configurations; there would be a bigger issue if we all had to use the same switch.

I do agree its an each to their own thing and its worth trying different switches to find one you really like. Physiology as well as typing speed and typing ability probably all play a part.

[TimIsABat]

Personally I could care less with browns. I would suggest either ergo or panda clears.

I am dying to switch my MX red switches on my poker x for ergo clears, but atm I don't have money for it. Later in the future, but for now naw. The browns to me just feels like a fail clear. I am typing on reds on some short keycaps on a Leopold, and it does feel a bit weird (must be because of the keyboard though).

[Rafen]

To me browns feel like a "gritty" red. Both style of key switches are light but reds are by far the lightest. Once you get use to typing on reds you won't want to type on another switch. I like reds over blacks because my fingers don't get fatigued when I have been typing for a while.

I'm actually in the process of ordering different springs for my reds that will require more force but not a much as the blacks.

[Photoelectric]

I wonder if people who feel that Browns are Gritty Reds have gritty Brown switches and would like to see how their opinions would change given smooth Brown switches.  There's nothing gritty bout Browns in my Filco and my Ducky, but my previous keyboard with Browns was quite gritty.

[Grim Fandango]

I wonder if people who feel that Browns are Gritty Reds have gritty Brown switches and would like to see how their opinions would change given smooth Brown switches.  There's nothing gritty bout Browns in my Filco and my Ducky, but my previous keyboard with Browns was quite gritty.

Yeah , I have also been puzzled by this. I have heard people say that browns feel like "gritty" or "dirty" reds, but this is so different from my experience. For me the tactile feedback feels consistent, clean and smooth. I always thought it is more likely a difference in preferences than a difference in the actual feel of the switch. However, I really feel that the word "gritty" does not describe my experience with browns... at all (filco btw)

[Photoelectric]

You must have a smooth batch then.  My CM Storm Trigger had very scratchy Browns.  I still felt the bump very well and wouldn't call them gritty Reds, but I think that's where the association comes from.  To those who've only tried "gritty Browns", I hope some day you'll experience smooth low-friction Browns: they are wonderful.

[Kiraaaa]

No, I don't play SC2; I play mostly FPS and MOBA's like Counter-Strike and DotA, though I do not game much anymore.
The first and fastest way I ran into the double tab issue with the blues is when I hopped in a game of CS and had issues switching between weapons quickly because of this. I can understand how this can be a problem in other games too because most games require fast-paced double tapping or just button spamming/smashing, lol.
But then at the same time I know many others have claimed they don't have a problem gaming on Blues. I guess a possibility is that they spent enough time with Blues and learned the fastest way to double tap without error... or maybe they just don't have quick fingers? I don't know lol.
Again, it's all preference and even though I don't play games anymore, this is still something that bothers me enough to not consider blues.

I have heard about Browns being referred to as "dirty" reds, but I didn't think much of this because what does "dirty" really even mean other than someone's way of describing browns to make them seem worse than reds.
But this is first time reading about browns being "gritty" reds, which is more interesting to me because this actually sounds like a problem with the actual switch and not just a way of rating browns below reds.

Is there actually such thing as bad batches of Browns that cause them to be "gritty" or different from other Browns? If so, is that enough to have it RMA'd? Or is all this just some kinda placebo effect by switching from one switch to another? lol

[Grim Fandango]

No, I don't play SC2; I play mostly FPS and MOBA's like Counter-Strike and DotA, though I do not game much anymore.
The first and fastest way I ran into the double tab issue with the blues is when I hopped in a game of CS and had issues switching between weapons quickly because of this. I can understand how this can be a problem in other games too because most games require fast-paced double tapping or just button spamming/smashing, lol.
But then at the same time I know many others have claimed they don't have a problem gaming on Blues. I guess a possibility is that they spent enough time with Blues and learned the fastest way to double tap without error... or maybe they just don't have quick fingers? I don't know lol.
Again, it's all preference and even though I don't play games anymore, this is still something that bothers me enough to not consider blues.

I have heard about Browns being referred to as "dirty" reds, but I didn't think much of this because what does "dirty" really even mean other than someone's way of describing browns to make them seem worse than reds.
But this is first time reading about browns being "gritty" reds, which is more interesting to me because this actually sounds like a problem with the actual switch and not just a way of rating browns below reds.

Is there actually such thing as bad batches of Browns that cause them to be "gritty" or different from other Browns? If so, is that enough to have it RMA'd? Or is all this just some kinda placebo effect by switching from one switch to another? lol

What Photoelectric says might be true, it may be "bad" batches. But this is the first time I have heard that, and my three boards with browns all feel the same (though they are all Filcos, but bought at different times). I think a lot of times it is actually just people kind of "exaggerating" to express what they do not like about browns. When you say "dirty" or "gritty" what comes to mind is something that feels inconsistent, something that has a lot of friction (like parts rubbing against each other), and something that has a lot of resistance. But that is not what browns feel like. I think what they may mean is that the tactile feedback of the browns is not really pronounced, making the switch feel like a linear switch with some sudden added resistance that feels out of place. 

[skuko]

No, I don't play SC2; I play mostly FPS and MOBA's like Counter-Strike and DotA, though I do not game much anymore.
The first and fastest way I ran into the double tab issue with the blues is when I hopped in a game of CS and had issues switching between weapons quickly because of this. I can understand how this can be a problem in other games too because most games require fast-paced double tapping or just button spamming/smashing, lol.
But then at the same time I know many others have claimed they don't have a problem gaming on Blues. I guess a possibility is that they spent enough time with Blues and learned the fastest way to double tap without error... or maybe they just don't have quick fingers? I don't know lol.
Again, it's all preference and even though I don't play games anymore, this is still something that bothers me enough to not consider blues.

this is the exact same reason i went from browns to reds.

i own the following boards (in the order i got them):
QFR with blacks
WASD v1 with browns
FILCO majestouch 2 with reds
noppoo choc mini with reds

i'm primarily a gamer. FPS rpgs and mmos. playing BF3, GW2 and diablo at the moment.

my first switch was black, because i feared that reds would be too light and that i would push the keys by accident while gaming. during a longer playing session (4+ hours), my fingers would become fatigued and my finger joints started to hurt. so i thought of trying out the browns because i still thought the reds would be too light.

i've had the WASD v1 for a couple of months (and i still have it at work and now i'm typing on it), but i started to notice that i don't like the tactile bump on it, when "spamming" a key (a skill in an mmo, just before it comes off cooldown), or doing quick left to right strafing in battlefield (peeking around the corner, for example). so i finally caved in, and bought a filco with reds.

been in love with them ever since. for me, reds are the best of both worlds, i like to type with them and i can play games for long hours without having finger fatigue. i love the linear switch and the actuation force is just a matter of getting used to

[Danule]

the browns on my filco were "gritty" for about a week they are smooth now apart from a few switches that i dont hit too much.  Brown is my favorite switch that I have tried so far from the Cherry brand.

[IPT]

Like others said its all about preferences. I myself hate browns and prefer reds over all the switches. Like Ivan, I'd use blues if i want a tactile switch

[Photoelectric]

What Photoelectric says might be true, it may be "bad" batches. But this is the first time I have heard that, and my three boards with browns all feel the same (though they are all Filcos, but bought at different times). I think a lot of times it is actually just people kind of "exaggerating" to express what they do not like about browns. When you say "dirty" or "gritty" what comes to mind is something that feels inconsistent, something that has a lot of friction (like parts rubbing against each other), and something that has a lot of resistance. But that is not what browns feel like. I think what they may mean is that the tactile feedback of the browns is not really pronounced, making the switch feel like a linear switch with some sudden added resistance that feels out of place.

It's not bad switches.  It's the difference in quality control or materials or something.  I came to this conclusion after making inquiry posts here on GH and also seeing similar threads and replies.  Between myself and an acquaintance (who's got a LOT of random computer parts, a sea of keyboards), I've tried 2 Filcos with MX Browns, 1 Ducky Shine TKL, 2 Storm Triggers with MX Browns (one was my first keyboard and it was gritty out of the box, my acquaintance's was just as gritty), a MAX keyboard, a DAS, and 2 of some brand I cannot recall---all of those with MX Browns.  I carefully compared them, and some had VERY gritty switches with noticeable friction (Storm Trigger had it the most noticeably) and some have not a hint of friction, just a smooth bump (2 Filcos).  I was very surprised by my findings and did post here inquiring why this was.  The answer was that yes, different batches of switches can have varying friction, and more recent batches tend to be on average grittier. 

Another example of differences out of the box was my brand new Pink Metallic Filco with MX Blacks--it was so scratchy, some switches made a faint whistling sound when being depressed.  My Ducky  came with very smooth Browns.  Not as smooth as 2 Filcos I've tried, but smooth enough to have very very low friction, and it's getting better with use daily, of course.  But there is a definite difference right out of the box.  Having used my Storm Trigger (sold now) for about a month, the initial scratchiness did not really wear off.  Thus that batch of switches was going to take a LOT more use to smooth out and possibly lubrication.

Here's a recent thread with a similar discussion

Here's my original post regarding what I just described

And there are lots of similar posts in other threads.

[TimIsABat]

Definitely has to do with overall build. Reds on my Poker X feel different than reds on my FC660M

[Kiraaaa]

Hmm, so this "scratchiness" is not just with Brown switches, but with all Cherry MX switches?
Maybe I will just save up for a Topre since they are going to release a cheaper board right?
Are Topres free of the "gritty" feeling since they are hybrid rubber switches?

[Lighthouse1]

I've not experienced that issue on any of the boards I have had, QFR or Filco. All have been very smooth, the only reason I don't like the red is that it feels odd, not because it feels gritty.

[Photoelectric]

Hmm, so this "scratchiness" is not just with Brown switches, but with all Cherry MX switches?
Maybe I will just save up for a Topre since they are going to release a cheaper board right?
Are Topres free of the "gritty" feeling since they are hybrid rubber switches?

Yes, it can happen with all MX switches, or at least with Browns, Reds, and Blacks in my own experience.  Just random luck.

[Dongulator]

I decided to get reds since I read on a forum some where that it is better for the RTS gamer, in which I am and I have found them nice for SC2. But I do notice that I tend to make more mistakes while typing with them. Getting use to the sensitivity of the Reds is going to take time. But I think in the long run it will make me a more accurate typist

[ImperfectLink]

Seems like a lot of people are trying to figure out Browns v Reds with the shortage of Browns. It will be known as the great 'Brown Out' of 2013.

[TimIsABat]

Seems like a lot of people are trying to figure out Browns v Reds with the shortage of Browns. It will be known as the great 'Brown Out' of 2013.

It is funny to think that a while ago the reds were hard to find. I was trying to find browns on a Poker X but couldn't...found it so much easier to find mx reds