Author Topic: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards  (Read 5838 times)

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Offline PointyFox

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Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« on: Fri, 12 July 2013, 18:16:42 »
Thought I'd share some keyboard-related pictures from Battleship New Jersey:






Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 12 July 2013, 18:42:49 »
Huh.

That JOTS system is an HP, but that's not the 'normal' keyboard. (Not at all surprising - standard HP workstation boards are not MILSPEC or marine rated.) But also not a standard HP chassis either, though that is definitely a standard HP badge. Can't tell if it's a 9000 family or Vectra.
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Offline meiosis

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 12 July 2013, 19:37:55 »
That crt screen reminds me of '97 when I was a wee little child. The graphics looked better then ;_;
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Offline PointyFox

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 12 July 2013, 20:36:09 »
That crt screen reminds me of '97 when I was a wee little child. The graphics looked better then ;_;
Closeup:

Offline bigx333

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 07:34:35 »
Now I understand where the SA profile idea for the 23 command set came from  :)
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 07:37:33 »
Thanks for sharing these awesome pics!!

Offline Jack Karneval

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 08:21:32 »
Hah, that's awesome, I wasn't aware NJ had a Battleship named after it  ^-^
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Offline PointyFox

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 12:14:16 »








« Last Edit: Sat, 13 July 2013, 12:15:52 by PointyFox »

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 12:48:38 »
That's fantastic. Those old battleships were totally bad ass. Interesting to see that standard Model M there with the WordPerfect help plastered to it. The Model M didn't need any toughening up to be used by the military!  :p


Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:14:29 »
That crt screen reminds me of '97 when I was a wee little child. The graphics looked better then ;_;
Closeup:
Show Image


Ha ha... yeah, that would definitely make it a Vectra PC. lolol, WinAPRS. The CRT is a standard CRT but in a marine/MILSPEC grade housing is all.

And suddenly all of GH descends on the New Jersey trying to steal that keyboard upon realizing Vectra means that's probably a hall-effect that natively does PS/2.
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Offline eth0s

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 15:31:18 »
I think that battleship was controlled by the W.O.P.R. mainframe computer in the NORAD computing center which was located in a bunker somewhere under a mountain in Colorado, which was so secret that only a pair of plucky teenagers from Seattle could find it.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 20:19:45 »
And suddenly all of GH descends on the New Jersey trying to steal that keyboard upon realizing Vectra means that's probably a hall-effect that natively does PS/2.
Source? I haven't extensively researched HP computers, but I thought all the ones that were made after the mid 1980's or so were rubber dome. Also what type of hall effect switch is it? microswitch (doubtful), cortron (doubtful) or whatever IMSAI used (maybe?) or something new.

The reason I ask is because I like a good hall effect keyboard, and I couldn't get a good look at that one under the dustcover.

From what I was able to see from the HP computer museum, it looks a lot more like this one (9000/520) than any vectra I was able to get a picture of.
http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=367

I think that battleship was controlled by the W.O.P.R. mainframe computer in the NORAD computing center which was located in a bunker somewhere under a mountain in Colorado, which was so secret that only a pair of plucky teenagers from Seattle could find it.
Yeah, but they moved out when Stargate took over.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 July 2013, 20:44:11 by dorkvader »

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 20:56:17 »
And suddenly all of GH descends on the New Jersey trying to steal that keyboard upon realizing Vectra means that's probably a hall-effect that natively does PS/2.
Source? I haven't extensively researched HP computers. Also what type of hall effect switch is it? microswitch (doubtful), cortron (doubtful) or whatever IMSAI used (maybe?) or something new.

The reason I ask is because I like a good hall effect keyboard, and I couldn't get a good look at that one under the dustcover.


Because there are two kinds of MILSPEC switches and neither is Cherry or IBM buckling spring. The JOTS system would be required to meet MILSPEC for marine environment (basically, needs to be able to get wet without damage.) Otherwise it wouldn't have that monster of a CRT and it would have a standard Vectra telco environment chassis.
(The Model M wouldn't need to meet MILSPEC if it was being used for typing up reports - WP overlay says, that's what it was.)

So that means it's sealed rubber dome, or it's hall effect. Well, sealed rubber dome isn't really rated for getting wet - dust, sure. For sealed marine application, yeah, the preference would be hall effect. They can be made watertight while operating perfectly normally. The size and shape of the keys make me think hall effect as well.

Also, FYI? They still make hall effect keyswitches, and they definitely would have been in full production at Honeywell (who is an HP supplier and partner) for a Vectra of that vintage. Big J was decommissioned in 1991 - which is how I identified it as a Vectra immediately. Vectras were produced 1985-1992. WinAPRS means it would have to be a Vectra of 386 or later vintage - but it's not a 386/20N. It's got the pre-1990 badge. It's also got SCSI disks for reliability purposes, so I'd say probably a 386/16N variant with an NCR 53C500 (to the best of my recollection that'd be the expected SCSI controller but it could predate that or they might have used BusLogic.)
Oh, and that's not a standard or normal Vectra keyboard layout either. Or even close to it. It was definitely purpose-made for marine applications.
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Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 01:39:20 »
I'm not sure it's a vectra. I'm no HP expert, but the KB looks exactly like that 9020 one I linked. Even the box's floppy input and the CRT are the same (save the colour) Look at the shape of the keycaps (spherical: same as vintage HP), instead of vectra keycaps (look at the vectra tenkey, Awesome and distinctive!) and the shape / size positions of the function row (those miscellaneous half-height keycaps scattered across the top). It's a dead ringer.

Still, I find it interesting that honeywell is an HP partner. I'll have to start looking into vintage HP keyboards more. All the vintage HP keyboards I know of use what look like either futaba or SMK switches. If you have any models you know of that didn't, I am always interested to learn more.

As far as new production HE keyswitches: I haven't seen any available since MECI ran out other than the Cortronics ones, which operate on an entirely different principle. I'm very interested in them and other solid state switches, so if you have any resources, links or further information, please PM it to me so I can buy some before they run out again. I've looked up honeywell's product catalog, and they haven't listed hall effect switches in the last several years or so. The most recent known keyboard with them is a SUN keypad from ca 1995. I still don't know who IMSAI used for their hall effects, but they appear different than the microswitch ones, and there's a chance they are still in production, hiding somewhere.

Microswitch has jush changed over their hall effects from the "vintage" round stems to the "modern" ones in 1981 or so. The vectra came out in 1985 which is when microswitch keyboards started to become more rare. There are tons of examples from the mid 1980's (symbolics, etc) but by the mid-to-late 1980's most companies (including symbolics) had switched to something else. The vectra came about in late 1985 when hall effect keyboards were starting to be phased out. I haven't seen a vectra with spherical keycaps yet in my searching, and I'm sure they didn't design a new keycap for it. The older HP's have a better chance with their tall spherical ones, but on many of the ones I see, the font is a little different, meaning those (at least) aren't hall effect. Now, I haven't seen a good picture of this keyboard, but I suspect they have waterproofed it some other way or gone with a different switch design. Perhaps another solid state switch (like a fancy IMS maybe) or have another method of waterproofing, or maybe they ignored waterproofing altogether. Sadly, millitary stuff is difficult to find information about.

So, as I said, I don't know much about HP, but I haven't seen anything like what you are posting about. I'd like to learn more, but I couldn't find any information online.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Battleship New Jersey Keyboards
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 04:55:35 »
I'm not sure it's a vectra. I'm no HP expert, but the KB looks exactly like that 9020 one I linked. Even the box's floppy input and the CRT are the same (save the colour) Look at the shape of the keycaps (spherical: same as vintage HP), instead of vectra keycaps (look at the vectra tenkey, Awesome and distinctive!) and the shape / size positions of the function row (those miscellaneous half-height keycaps scattered across the top). It's a dead ringer.

Er, except for one little issue here.
I am an HP expert. And very much an expert in workstations of that era - I'm one of the few folks still around who can still fix them from memory. I'm telling you for fact, that is a Vectra - not a PA-RISC or VME. If not a Vectra, possibly Kayak or purpose built. Either way, the 5.25" bay covers have vents on each side approximately 3/8" wide, which fits Vectra and Kayak. There's two 5.25" bays, and if they're fitted with SCSI disks, they'll have a single rectangular red LED typically. (However, that's not present on all models - it depends on the exact date, model, so on and so forth.) That LED is individually cabled to the drive or mounted to the PCB, depending which specific model of drive. And HP's the only one who used that particular model of blue and there's no question that's an HP logo.
It's not a PA-RISC system because yeah, no. One, it's running Windows. Two, 9000 family would have been an Apollo - which was a 68k prior to Big J's decommissioning - but it's not PReP. So no Windows NT 3.51! Three, it's not a VMEbus system. I worked on HP VME's - totally wrong frame, totally wrong layout. There's probably some VME gear in there - but not in the photos. This is what a HP VME looks like.

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Still, I find it interesting that honeywell is an HP partner. I'll have to start looking into vintage HP keyboards more. All the vintage HP keyboards I know of use what look like either futaba or SMK switches. If you have any models you know of that didn't, I am always interested to learn more.

Honeywell isn't a consumer supplier. They primarily supply board-level components and power supply components for certain models, though pretty sure that hasn't been the case for a number of years. Honeywell, Delta, LSI, all sorts of suppliers go into the mix and have for decades. As I said; that particular system dates to '85-'91. It's also NOT a standard part, nor one you could possibly order. These are probably specific to contract, and may not even be HP manufactured - it may be Honeywell manufactured for HP. Or it could be someone else entirely. Either way - it's not consumer/civilian hardware. You can't just go to a parts show and pick it up.

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As far as new production HE keyswitches: I haven't seen any available since MECI ran out other than the Cortronics ones, which operate on an entirely different principle. I'm very interested in them and other solid state switches, so if you have any resources, links or further information, please PM it to me so I can buy some before they run out again. I've looked up honeywell's product catalog, and they haven't listed hall effect switches in the last several years or so. The most recent known keyboard with them is a SUN keypad from ca 1995. I still don't know who IMSAI used for their hall effects, but they appear different than the microswitch ones, and there's a chance they are still in production, hiding somewhere.

I presume you're referring to the IMSAI 8080 - which didn't come with a keyboard. It relied entirely on front panel switches. The keyboard was a separately ordered component (or more frequently separately built since that was way cheaper.) To my knowledge, very few IKB-1's exist - and they have a separate UVEPROM for an internal microprocessor, apparently. Plus, honestly, it really could be any number of different vendors.
As to new ones; I've seen new Honeywells floating about, but no idea if they're new-new or NOS. I'm not our resident hall-effect guy and I'm not a fan of them, so haven't paid much attention. (The only hall effect stuff I work with is repairing irreplaceable sensors for 70's and 80's cars.)

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Microswitch has jush changed over their hall effects from the "vintage" round stems to the "modern" ones in 1981 or so. The vectra came out in 1985 which is when microswitch keyboards started to become more rare. There are tons of examples from the mid 1980's (symbolics, etc) but by the mid-to-late 1980's most companies (including symbolics) had switched to something else. The vectra came about in late 1985 when hall effect keyboards were starting to be phased out. I haven't seen a vectra with spherical keycaps yet in my searching, and I'm sure they didn't design a new keycap for it. The older HP's have a better chance with their tall spherical ones, but on many of the ones I see, the font is a little different, meaning those (at least) aren't hall effect. Now, I haven't seen a good picture of this keyboard, but I suspect they have waterproofed it some other way or gone with a different switch design. Perhaps another solid state switch (like a fancy IMS maybe) or have another method of waterproofing, or maybe they ignored waterproofing altogether. Sadly, millitary stuff is difficult to find information about.

I know a lot about MILSPEC because if you know the right person and you're doing the right things you go "FYI, we just want MILSPEC stuff since the regular stuff isn't reliable enough." Hint: if you're going for true five-nines the first words out of your mouth tend to be "either telco grade or MILSPEC." To get either one of those means a lot of the same things - much wider operating ranges, protection against harsh environments, and so on. Doubly so if you say "FYI it's going to be installed in the middle of a desert."
Plus my neighbor is retired USCG. There is absolutely no way they would not have used a waterproof keyboard for JOTS - that's a critical shipboard system. Without it, they're essentially blind in many regards, so that is a system that absolutely has to work. And again, this is not consumer stuff. Even when it was new, you could not just call HP and go "hey I want a hall effect keyboard." Or even order that one by PN. Plus, I don't know any rubber domes rated for marine use. Dust ingress, sure. Getting soaked? Pretty sure that's a no.

And again: this is not consumer. You only know consumer. Hell, outside of the hardware side of the house, I only know consumer and MILSPEC Sun rubber dome from research. And I'm telling you straight up, that's not a stock HP keyboard of any flavor. It's possible it's a holdover from an OLD system that was made to interface with the Vectra (they usually have to guarantee and provide support for these systems for MANY years, no matter what it takes to keep them running) or it's possible it was a part made specifically for this system from day one. You'd have to find the whatsit bid contract thingymajig, which spells out exactly what the Navy required for the JOTS systems.

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So, as I said, I don't know much about HP, but I haven't seen anything like what you are posting about. I'd like to learn more, but I couldn't find any information online.

You won't. Military contract stuff, as I said, is not generally available. Even less available than my HP stuff, even less available than my IBM stuff (and I have a lot of seriously NDA'd stuff from both.) If you want to find out the details of the system in general - and I do mean general - you need to find the original bid request for the JOTS system. That's public information. Then you'll need to find the submitted bids and accepted bid - which may or may not be public information. The original bid request may be extremely detailed, like "a 386 desktop form factor computer running Windows 3.11 for Workgroups with a 120MB SCSI disk and watertight keyboard" or it may be extremely vague like "an automated computing system for displaying relative position of radio beacons."

Either way, that's probably the only way to get any more information short of finding the people who built it, worked on it, or taking it apart in person.
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.