So many switches... so many colours...

[CaptCarrot]

Dear all.  As you may have guesssed, I'm new here...


HI


Anyways, I have used Model M's and Dell keyboards in the past with absolutely no idea what the switches were until recently.  I did persuade my boss to let me keep my desk hogging pre-historic keyboard whilst the rest of the company had new Dell rubber dome boards.  And have to say the the old war horse was my best typing board ever.  It probably had ALPS sliders being a DELL, but as I no longer work there I will never find out.

I have been over to ClickyKeyboards and understand about buckling springs.  But I am still not to clued up on the ALPS sliders.  I have also looked up the DAS Keyboard, the Scorpius iOne (which i won't have as it is only US layout) and several options from unicomp and cherry.  Having frequented these forums I am now also looking at Happy Hacking, Switch Mac etc...

I have looked into getting a new clicky board for some time.  Over the last 5 years I have chopped and changed boards a few times, starting with a relatiely good Microsoft Office Keyboard (still have somewhere), to a Microsft Comfort Curve (gave away) to my current useage, a Saitek Eclipse.

I don't have £'s to throw away, so if I splash out I need to make the right choice.

I know all of you will have your own preference, and I see many of you rotate boards, but could you give me some advice on the different switches (Cherry MX/ML/FTSC / ALPS SLiders / Buckling Spring) and the many and varied colours (which I didn't know about until I came across these forums) and the differences between them.

Many thanks.

[itlnstln]

I use a Model M at home and a Northgate Evolution at work.  I like both as they are both clicky.  The Northgate with its Alps switches is lighter than the Model M, and I like it for when I am doing a lot of typing.  I tend to have a light touch on the keyboard, and, sometimes, I do not press the keys on the Model M hard enought to activate the switches.  Other than the pressure needed, the tactility in the Alps and the Buckling Springs are similiar, so it is easy to switch back and forth with little adjustment. The Evolution is also a split-ergonomic layout adding to the comfort of long typing sessions.  I have not tried a Cherry board, so I do not know how they would compare.  I know several of the member who like buckling springs and Alps do not particularly care for the Cherry switches, but that certainly does not represent everyone on the board.

[megarat]

I know all of you will have your own preference, and I see many of you rotate boards, but could you give me some advice on the different switches (Cherry MX/ML/FTSC / ALPS SLiders / Buckling Spring) and the many and varied colours (which I didn't know about until I came across these forums) and the differences between them.

This brings to mind an idea ... my apologies if this has been discussed (or done) before.  Upon my first visit to this site, learning about the Cherry spectrum and the dozens of other types of switches one can find, I thought it would be useful to have a chart as a form of keyboard-switch reference.  That is, a single page listing the major types of switches, general characteristics, and models of keyboards that have them.

Thoughts?  (Or does something like this exist already and I haven't been able to find it?)

[wellington1869]

I've seen mentions on this forum of the existence of a "geekhack wiki", which apparently might have keyswitch models/descriptions. Dont know where that is though.

meanwhile, this might help a bit: http://www.ergocanada.com/ergo/keyboards/mechanical_vs_membrane_keyswitches.html

[lowpoly]

This brings to mind an idea ... my apologies if this has been discussed (or done) before. Upon my first visit to this site, learning about the Cherry spectrum and the dozens of other types of switches one can find, I thought it would be useful to have a chart as a form of keyboard-switch reference. That is, a single page listing the major types of switches, general characteristics, and models of keyboards that have them.

I thought about starting a switch reference in the Wiki but I guess somebody else has to do it. megarat?

[wellington1869]

Can someone describe the Topre switch in the realforce keyboards? Ie, basically, in terms of *construction*, how are they different from cherries?  Do they involve a membrane AND a spring?

[CaptCarrot]

If its any help to you (it isn't to me ), they are llisted under capacatative on sandy55

[itlnstln]

Can someone describe the Topre switch in the realforce keyboards? Ie, basically, in terms of *construction*, how are they different from cherries?  Do they involve a membrane AND a spring?

Someone had a picture/diagram on the board, but I forgot which thread.  Basically what it amounts to is a voltage change by reducing/increasing the capacitance through the interaction between the key, itself, and the PCB.  The spring simply pushes the key back up when you press it down and the rubber sleeve simply houses the spring and the keystem and may provide some tactility.

Here is non-English version of the diagram:

http://www.iqmore.idv.tw/pic/iqmore_Keyboard/iqmore_Keyboard01/big/iqmore_Keyboard01_big_11.gif

Edit - to actually answer you question:

The difference between the Topre switches and something like a Cherry or Alps switch is the Cherry and Alps are more simple switches that turn voltages on or off (where the Topre is a change in voltage based on capacitance).  The Cherry and Alps switches are self-contained and are wired to the PCB and the keycap/keystem sits on top.  You can actually use these 'boards without the keys.  In an old post, member Whiskey-In-The-Jar-O liked using naked Alps where he took the caps off an Alps 'board and just used the switches.  He felt it gave him a better feel.  See this Wikipedia article for further explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology.  It explains capacitive switches pretty well, but not necessarily mechanical switches like Cherry's.

[Ulysses31]

Interesting.  That wikipedia article references a "TVS Gold" mechanical keyboard (made in India) that is sold for about £21 O_O.  EDIT: Somewhere on-line I found it for £15.

[wellington1869]

itinstin -thanks for the detailed reply, very helpful. I dont suppose you want to take a crack at describing the key feel in comparison to blue cherries? Tactile feedbacK: is there a bump or is it linear? soft landing? Auditory feedback: click, mild click, bottoming-out-thud, or silent?  Thanks!
(P.s., this is the kind of info that should be in the geekhack wiki, no?

Ulysses31: I noticed the info on TVS keyboard too. Googled it, its apparently very popular among coders in India. Seems they use cherries but i dont know which kind. (A review described it as loud, so maybe blue cherries). I didnt see any reason to get one though over a das except for maybe a price advantage or for a neat "bilingual" model they have (in case any of you want to type in Hindi). On Google it looked like you could pick one up for maybe $45. But the m10 scorpius widely available here is only 5 bucks more than that.

product:
http://www.tvs-e.com/productpage.asp?prodname=tvs-gold-black-keyboard-usb.asp

a review:
http://www.techtree.com/India/Reviews/TVS_Gold_Black_Keyboard/551-51404-533.html

Price is listed as Rs.1300. At a 50-to-1 exchange ratio with dollars, that puts it around $26 (!) plus shipping (maybe $20?).

[DMuk]

Ulysses31: is this the one:

http://www.spotonuk.com/usb-ps2-keyboards/toshiba/tvs-gold_79692/

[itlnstln]

Wellington:

I have never used a Cherry-switch-based kb, I only have experience with Buckling Springs and Alps.  The Alps are very tactile and feel like a slightly light buckling spring, and I highly recommend them.  You can see a detailed review in the keyboard reviews section for the Northgate Evolution and XsPhat has one for a Macally 'board with Alps knock-offs that he really likes.  The Alps are louder and higher pitched than the buckling springs.  Due to the construction of the Evolution (mostly steel and fairly hollow) there is a loud and resonant clack when the key bottoms out.  It is a great kb, as well as all Alps boards, despite the noise.  One day, when I care, I might try some sound damping.

[wellington1869]

I have never used a Cherry-switch-based kb

hey itlntln -- thanks, I meant key feel of the topres though, but I've been reading up more about the topre's since then (on this forum and elsewhere). From what i understand the topre's are pretty much silent and linear in comparison to the cherries...

[kyamei]

I've been curious about the feel of the Topres too.  Been trying to decide between a Filco with browns, Das III, or a Topre.  I really don't want to spend ~$100+ per keyboard just to test out the different switches, I'd rather just buy one end-all keyboard.  From the way things look here, everyone who owns a board with Topre switches loves it and some people love it so much they have more than one.  Should I just spend the extra $100 over the Filco and go with the Topre? (Realforce 101)

Sorry for the hijack, didn't want to make a new thread when there's so many "what keyboard should I get?" threads lately.

[Korbin]

I've been curious about the feel of the Topres too.  Been trying to decide between a Filco with browns, Das III, or a Topre.  I really don't want to spend ~$100+ per keyboard just to test out the different switches, I'd rather just buy one end-all keyboard.  From the way things look here, everyone who owns a board with Topre switches loves it and some people love it so much they have more than one.  Should I just spend the extra $100 over the Filco and go with the Topre? (Realforce 101)

Sorry for the hijack, didn't want to make a new thread when there's so many "what keyboard should I get?" threads lately.

I have all 3 and the topre is the smoothest, best sounding (they aren't loud at all but have this silent "thock" sound that I love), balanced (excellent feedback for a light switch) switch out of the 3 in my opinion.

The HHKB is incredibly efficient since you do everything without your fingers leaving the home row, but if that is out of you price range then the realforce will likely be a good compromise. As you can see, I think they are totally worth the money.

[wellington1869]

Whats the cheapest topre switch keyboard one can get? is it the HHKB? ("Cheap" is relative, I know

Incidentally I had this wacky idea that geekhack should provide different keyboards for people to try out since so many of us arrive at this site, like Kyamei, trying to decide once and for all which keyboard to spend a $100+ bucks on

Maybe the way it could work is: iMav provides the different keyboards (maybe old ones he has lying around), representing the main kinds of different types of switches, which we "buy" from him to try out (we pay some amount, say $50 or whatever maybe even the actual cost of it), and then we try it out to our hearts content at our homes in person, and then we "return" it to him (for a refund, so long as its in the same working order so the next person can in turn "try" it out).  iMav you could even charge 10 bucks for the service, I know I would happily pay that much for the chance to try out - in person - the topre and other switches like that to be able to compare them directly and next to each other in my home.

Just a wild idea Like kyamei I too am in the position where I'd love to try these out but have limited funds and time

[lowpoly]

I'd rather just buy one end-all keyboard.

Now that you're here, this isn't going to happen anymore.

geekhack should provide different keyboards for people to try out

There are several Geekhack Evaluation Centers around the world, you just have to visit them, haha.

The send-keyboards-around thing won't work, I think. What could work is: buy a couple of boards and saw them into single switch pieces. Then sell like 3 Cherry switches (blue, brown, black), 1 black and 1 white Alps for $10. Of course this is not like a full board but much better than nothing. Don't know if this will work with Topres or BS.

[wellington1869]

There are several Geekhack Evaluation Centers around the world, you just have to visit them, haha.

haha! I'm serious!

The send-keyboards-around thing won't work, I think.

well, I'm sure imav wouldnt mind hauling packages to the post office every other day hahaha!  But seriously, geekhack should open a keyboard store. you're the number  one online destination for keyboard geeks, arent you?

What could work is: buy a couple of boards and saw them into single switch pieces. Then sell like 3 Cherry switches (blue, brown, black), 1 black and 1 white Alps for $10. Of course this is not like a full board but much better than nothing. Don't know if this will work with Topres or BS.

Thats really not a bad idea. Or maybe "any five switches for 10 bucks" so people can choose which ones they want to try. I would buy that. It would be enormously helpful to have the different switches in hand.

And it would be quite profitable for anyone willing to take apart an old keyboard -- 104 keys times $2 per key...

I have my money ready if anyone wants to do this right now

[kyamei]

I have all 3 and the topre is the smoothest, best sounding (they aren't loud at all but have this silent "thock" sound that I love), balanced (excellent feedback for a light switch) switch out of the 3 in my opinion.

The HHKB is incredibly efficient since you do everything without your fingers leaving the home row, but if that is out of you price range then the realforce will likely be a good compromise. As you can see, I think they are totally worth the money.

Thanks for the info, I think I'm just going to go for the Realforce 101.  I love how cute the HHKB looks, but it isn't very practical for me since I play a few games that use the F-keys quite a bit and I use the tenkey somewhat often.

Now that you're here, this isn't going to happen anymore.

Haha, you're probably right.  I know I'll end up buying em all anyways, but heres hoping.

[CaptCarrot]

The send-keyboards-around thing won't work, I think.

Probably not, but I know that the EDC (Every Day Carry) Forums have regular passarounds.

[itlnstln]

I have heard that Topre's feel closest to Cherry Browns, but since I have not used either, I couldn't be sure.

[sparayurji]

the tvs gold i'm using right know has blue switches, but i cannot assure that all the models have blues.
about the construction quality, it can be said that it matches a cherry branded model, more or less.
one disappointing (but maybe understandable) thing is that the base plate, where the switches are mounted, is a plastic one, but in the past it was metallic. i found an old model (tvs is very popular here in india) and although not working, the feel and the sound of the switches is definitely better, especially when you bottom out the keys, not an uneasy case due to the lightness of the blues.
anyway for a street price of 1200rs (more or less 18 euros, btw i'm italian), is still a decent choice. of course if you have to add the shipment fees things change a while.

[real_psyence]

Hey everyone,
     Decided to post here first, rather than starting a new thread. I too have been contemplating different switches (keyboards), and decided to check my favorite electronics distributor. Sure enough, Digikey sells Cherry MX switches for around a dollar each, at least for the ones they have in stock.
    Currently they have in stock types 1, C and E, which are standard black (linear), soft tactile (maybe brown, the datasheet lists clear), and tactile click blue.

   So there you go! Rather than ordering an expensive keyboard to test out the switches, just buy a switch and a keycap (digikey has those too - or you could pull one off) and tap away. In fact, I may build up a little demo board to light a LED or something when the key is pressed...

[wellington1869]

real psyence, thats great - i'll see if they have alps too

[Chloe]

Ulysses31: is this the one:

http://www.spotonuk.com/usb-ps2-keyboards/toshiba/tvs-gold_79692/

I don't think they sell this anymore. I couldn't find it listed here:
http://www.spotonuk.com/usb-ps2-keyboards/

[Ulysses31]

Hey everyone,
     Decided to post here first, rather than starting a new thread. I too have been contemplating different switches (keyboards), and decided to check my favorite electronics distributor. Sure enough, Digikey sells Cherry MX switches for around a dollar each, at least for the ones they have in stock.
    Currently they have in stock types 1, C and E, which are standard black (linear), soft tactile (maybe brown, the datasheet lists clear), and tactile click blue.

   So there you go! Rather than ordering an expensive keyboard to test out the switches, just buy a switch and a keycap (digikey has those too - or you could pull one off) and tap away. In fact, I may build up a little demo board to light a LED or something when the key is pressed...

I checked out their website.  They sell to a variety of countries including the UK (where I am).  The switches themselves are less than a dollar each, but the postage is around $20.  What a rip.

[DMuk]

I don't think they sell this anymore. I couldn't find it listed here:
http://www.spotonuk.com/usb-ps2-keyboards/

I'll give them a ring tomorrow. See if they want to prise off a keycap for me!

[wellington1869]

I checked out their website. They sell to a variety of countries including the UK (where I am). The switches themselves are less than a dollar each, but the postage is around $20. What a rip.

I couldnt find any alps... so I think if someone wants to rip up some of their old keyboards, there are at least some of us who would happily pay $2/key  Maybe we can have a bag of switches as the geekhack passaround.

[lowpoly]

Are Alps switches still being produced?

[real_psyence]

I checked out their website.  They sell to a variety of countries including the UK (where I am).  The switches themselves are less than a dollar each, but the postage is around $20.  What a rip.

Hey,
    I just checked the UK supplier I always got screwed with (as in, they'd have a part I needed, but only in the UK, I'm in the US, and had to pay crazy postage), Farnell, and sure enough they have the 1 C and E types:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=500005+1000190&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=mx1a&Ntx=

Cheers!

[real_psyence]

Are Alps switches still being produced?

I found this article from 2004, which you've probably seen:
http://db.tidbits.com/article/7607

Basically it says that Matias found that ALPS was going to stop making the famed white sliders and he promised to buy a million or something, so they kept doing it. Dunno what the current status is. I'm trying to find a part # or more technical details on them to try and find them online.

Cheers!

[real_psyence]

well, this is the closest I can find on the ALPS website:
http://www3.alps.com/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/HTML/Switch/Tact/SKHJ/SKHJ_list.html

Looks close, but not quite right, and the force #s look way high to me... I'm giving up for the time being. Mouser has a number of alps switches, but most of them are SMD tactile switches with like zero travel, clearly not for nice keyboards.

[lowpoly]

I found this article from 2004, which you've probably seen:
http://db.tidbits.com/article/7607

Basically it says that Matias found that ALPS was going to stop making the famed white sliders and he promised to buy a million or something, so they kept doing it. Dunno what the current status is. I'm trying to find a part # or more technical details on them to try and find them online.

Cheers!

I've seen that one. IIRC Matias switched to Strongman or some other clone. So this deal might have never happened after all.

well, this is the closest I can find on the ALPS website:
http://www3.alps.com/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/HTML/Switch/Tact/SKHJ/SKHJ_list.html

Looks close, but not quite right, and the force #s look way high to me... I'm giving up for the time being. Mouser has a number of alps switches, but most of them are SMD tactile switches with like zero travel, clearly not for nice keyboards.

They have 0.25mm travel, that's a different switch.

[real_psyence]

True, I mean, that article was from 2004, so if anything it was probably for version 1. Would you be able to provide more info on the white ALPS? I don't have a keyboard with them, so I can't measure them. Things like travel, X Y dimensions, force...

 I'd like to try and find a source for either the originals, NOS if they aren't being made any more, or a compatible clone. I'll take a look at strongman.

[megarat]

I thought about starting a switch reference in the Wiki but I guess somebody else has to do it. megarat?

Sure, I'll give it a try.  It'll be easy enough to get it going and help with the content and maintenance, but I know very little compared to others around here, so I may need to solicit the group for content.

[lowpoly]

Would you be able to provide more info on the white ALPS?

Sorry, no. But travel should be in the 3-4mm range, so 0.25mm is something else.

Sure, I'll give it a try. It'll be easy enough to get it going and help with the content and maintenance, but I know very little compared to others around here, so I may need to solicit the group for content.

Great. I'll try to help but I'm already stuck with the keyboard reference, I really have to update that one...

[DMuk]

I don't think they sell this anymore. I couldn't find it listed here:
http://www.spotonuk.com/usb-ps2-keyboards/

I phoned these people up. Apparently this is just a test page. They don't sell it and have no plans to. I suggested removing the link. Getting people all excited over nothing. Should be a law against it.

[Chloe]

I started a switch reference, I hope you don't mind. Right now it's only a list of switches with keyboard models mentioned here. It might be useful to include links to pictures and datasheets of the switches.

[wellington1869]

I started a switch reference, I hope you don't mind. Right now it's only a list of switches with keyboard models mentioned here. It might be useful to include links to pictures and datasheets of the switches.

thanks for that chloe, I think its much needed. I'll include some links (datasheets, graphs, etc) as I come across them, too. This could work well as a cross reference with the existing keyboard list (thus showing which keyboards use which switches for folks who want to hunt on ebay)

[CaptCarrot]

Interesting, apparently Maxi Switch made sliders....  Vintage Gateway 2000 Keyboard Maxi Switch Sliders Nice (Item number: 290262999546)

[CaptCarrot]

I started a switch reference, I hope you don't mind. Right now it's only a list of switches with keyboard models mentioned here. It might be useful to include links to pictures and datasheets of the switches.

sandy55.fc2web.com/keboard (translated) maybe of some use to you.

[wellington1869]

Hey everyone,
Decided to post here first, rather than starting a new thread. I too have been contemplating different switches (keyboards), and decided to check my favorite electronics distributor. Sure enough, Digikey sells Cherry MX switches for around a dollar each, at least for the ones they have in stock.
Currently they have in stock types 1, C and E, which are standard black (linear), soft tactile (maybe brown, the datasheet lists clear), and tactile click blue.
 
So there you go! Rather than ordering an expensive keyboard to test out the switches, just buy a switch and a keycap (digikey has those too - or you could pull one off) and tap away. In fact, I may build up a little demo board to light a LED or something when the key is pressed...

So I bought one of each kind of switch from digikey. Came out to about 5 bucks shipping included. This is a very cheap way to try out the switches.
The part number table is here: (in the search box type in "cherry mx switch")
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Selection
 
Digikey's digital catalog has pics and more information: (Zoom in on bottom third of the page):
http://digi-key.dirxion.com/WebProject.asp?BookCode=dus08flx&SectionIndex=0&PageIndex=2010#

[lowpoly]

So I bought one of each kind of switch from digikey.

Maybe post the part numbers? (Considering we have another thread wondering about which switches are the right ones).

[wellington1869]

Maybe post the part numbers? (Considering we have another thread wondering about which switches are the right ones).

sure, the digikey part numbers are:
(these are for pcb mount (ie, tabs visible/accessible):
black mx: ch160-nd (cherry part number MX1A-11NW)
blue mx: ch197-nd (cherry part number MX1A-E1NW)
brown mx: ch310-nd (cherry part number MX1A-C1NW) [Update: this is incorrect. See post #51]
 
They're about $1 each, with about $2 for USPS first class mail (there are a ton of shipping options). They also have the faceplate mount versions:
black: ch162-nd
blue: ch196-nd
brown: ch198-nd

[lowpoly]

Thanks, I quoted that for the Wiki, I hope you don't mind.

[wellington1869]

Thanks, I quoted that for the Wiki, I hope you don't mind.

not at all, i'm a big believer in filling out the wiki

[real_psyence]

wellington: awesome! Glad you found the digikey stuff helpful. They've been my go-to supplier for electronics for a couple years now. Service is absolutely first-rate and if you need something overnighted to you at 5pm eastern time, they're the place to call.

Too bad ALPS and Topre switches aren't available in the same market, would be nice to do a full round-up.

[xyzzy]

Too bad ALPS and Topre switches aren't available in the same market, would be nice to do a full round-up.

Alps switches apparently have been discontinued for a long time now, and Topre doesn't manufacture individual switches (the mechanism they use is a combination of springs kept together by a single rubber sheet, and the capacitive contacts) so it looks like you need to buy full keyboards to check how those keys feel.

[Bodibo]

sure, the digikey part numbers are:
(these are for pcb mount (ie, tabs visible/accessible):
black mx: ch160-nd (cherry part number MX1A-11NW)
blue mx: ch197-nd (cherry part number MX1A-E1NW)
brown mx: ch310-nd (cherry part number MX1A-C1NW)
 
They're about $1 each, with about $2 for USPS first class mail (there are a ton of shipping options). They also have the faceplate mount versions:
black: ch162-nd
blue: ch196-nd
brown: ch198-nd

Glad to see some clarification on this. I have been looking for some brown switches to place in my G80, but according to an old Cherry PDF the code for Cherry browns is MX1A-G1NW, which nobody in the UK sells. But if you say that MX1A-C1NW are Cherry browns, then I will go for them.

Edit: Just got my G80 this morning and I definitely don't like the Cherry black switches - stiffer than Cherry blues and no tactile feedback.

[wellington1869]

well, I can confirm the above information for you soon as I receive my digikey package in a couple of days They just emailed that it shipped...