Author Topic: das iii typos at higher speeds  (Read 55714 times)

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Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 20:59:20 »
i've been using a das iii for several months, and since the beginning, accuracy has been a problem at higher speeds.  for example, i found myself typing 'teh' instead of 'the' a lot more frequently on the das than on other keyboards.  i've also noticed what could be best described as input lag when i get a nice typing rhythm going.  not terribly huge, but just enough to be mildly annoying.

i always thought that it was me, but now i'm not so sure.

i stuck with the das because i like the feel and sound of blue cherries, the keyboard's decently made and looks kinda neat, adn (<--i'm using the das iii now and this is another typo pattern i make on a regular basis, and i'm going to leave this as is for reasons that will become apparent later) the 12-key rollover is a nice featuer (<--another one).

ironcially (<--another), it's the rollover behavior of the das that clued me in.

here's the das with the a, s, d, and f keys pressed at the same time.  first with just one hand, then with the other, then with the index and middle fingers on each hand, and even with the index and middle fingers of my left hand hitting d and f, and the index and middle fingers hitting a and s:

asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf
asdf

here's an alps glidepoint (ps/2), chosen at random from my keyboard collection:

fdas
fdas
sfda
fdas
asfd
fdas
asfd
sfda
sfda
sfda
asfd
fdas
asfd
fdsa
fdas
asfd
asfd
sfda
fdas
asfd
sdaf
asfd
asfd
sfad
sfda
asfd
sdaf
asfd
asdf
asfd
asfd
sfda
asfd
asfd
asfd
asfd
sdaf
dasf
dasf
sfda
asfd

i did these 4 keys because the glidepoint works okay with them.

see a pattern here?

the das always gives the same rollover pattern, but i know for a fact that my fingers weren't hitting the asdf pattern exactly in that order each time, and my fingers certainly weren't actuating those 4 switches at EXACTLY the same instant, every single time (it would make sense for the keyboard to output a given pattern consistently if the keyswitches were actuated at precisely the same instant because typing is inherently character-by-character...the keyboard essentially has no choice but to give priority to one key over another if both are hit at exactly the same instant.  either that, or block the keys completely.)

as i started seeing the pattern emerging on the das, i even intentionally 'biased' the keypresses ever so slightly to try to get a 'fdsa' pattern to show up, but it didn't, even when i KNEW that that pattern would show up on other keyboards with the keys pressed that same way (you get a feel for these things after typing on keyboards for years and years).

now, regarding the typos i pointed out at the beginning:


das keyboard, e and h keys:

eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
he
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh
eh

glidepoint:

eh
he
eh
eh
he
he
he
he
he
he
he
he
eh
eh
eh
he
he
he
eh
he
eh
eh
eh
he
he
he
he
eh
eh
he


das, d and n keys:

dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn

glidepoint:

nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
nd
dn
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
nd
dn
dn
dn
dn
dn
nd
nd
dn
nd
dn
nd
nd
dn
nd


das, e and r keys:

er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
er
re
er
er
er
er
er
er

glidepoint:

re
re
er
re
er
re
re
re
re
re
re
er
re
re
re
re
re
re
re
er
er


das keyboard, i and c keys:

ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ic
ci
ic
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci
ci

glidepoint:

ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ic
ci
ic
ic
c
ic
ic
ci
ic


i don't know why the das behaves this way, but perhaps it is related to the way it detects and handles simultaneous key presses, and might also have something to do with the input lag i sometimes perceive when typing very quickly on the das.

what i'm speculating is, and this is based solely on observation, perhaps there is a certain length of time during which if multiple keys are pressed sequentially, the keyboard detects them as being simultaneous presses.  but because typing is done character-by-character, the keyboard needs to send the characters one at a time, but with multiple simultaneous keypresses, it has to send them in SOME kind of order, which it does consistently (thus the asdf, asdf, asdf).

so, for the sake of argument let's say that this length of time were 50ms.  if i were to press the h key followed by the e key within that 50ms, the keyboard considers that simultaneous, and sends out the sequence as 'eh', because that's the way it was programmed.  so i'm flying along and i've ended up with 'teh' instead of 'the'.  the keyboard can't keep up with me.  but if i slow down a bit and hit the e key, say, 60ms after the h key, the keyboard sees two separate keystrokes, and in the correct order.

when i do the rollover test, i bet i'm hitting the e and h keys within that 50ms.  in reality, sometimes i'm hitting the e followed by the h, and other times the h followed by the e, and every once in a while hitting them at exactly the same instant.  but it doesn't matter, because as long as both keys are hit within 50ms of each other, the keyboard sees the inputs as simultaneous, and outputs 'eh' each time.

now maybe the keyboards i've used previously had a shorter 'lag' (for lack of a better term) time than 50ms, and that's why i haven't had this problem with them.

but, thinking back to what dmw said in the 'what's this?' thread about how usb keyboards work, this problem may not actually be the keyboard's fault, perhaps it's due to the way usb keyboards are handled by the operating system (windows xp in my case) that is causing this behavior.

the das is the first usb keyboard i've used on a regular basis, all of my previous keyboards have been ps/2.

at work tomorrow i'll have access to other usb keyboards to test.


in the meantime, any thoughts?

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 21:39:34 »
Quote
accuracy has been a problem at higher speeds. for example, i found myself typing 'teh' instead of 'the' a lot more frequently on the das than on other keyboards. i've also noticed what could be best described as input lag when i get a nice typing rhythm going. not terribly huge, but just enough to be mildly annoying
Hmm, thats disturbing. I just bought one! I'm going to receive it in 2 days, I can tell you if I'm seeing anything similar.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 21:42:22 »
Quote
the das always gives the same rollover pattern, but i know for a fact that my fingers weren't hitting the asdf pattern exactly in that order each time

IF this is true, this is really a keyboard design error.
 
Quote
but, thinking back to what dmw said in the 'what's this?' thread about how usb keyboards work, this problem may not actually be the keyboard's fault, perhaps it's due to the way usb keyboards are handled by the operating system (windows xp in my case) that is causing this behavior.

do we know for a fact that other usb boards do it this way? and that therefore maybe its OS systemic error rather than board or microchip design flaw?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 21:56:15 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10415

do we know for a fact that other usb boards do it this way? and that therefore maybe its OS systemic error rather than board or microchip design flaw?


i don't know yet.  here at home the das is the only usb keyboard i've got.  i'll be able to test other usb keyboards at work tomorrow.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 21:59:29 »
Quote from: alpslover;10418
i don't know yet. here at home the das is the only usb keyboard i've got. i'll be able to test other usb keyboards at work tomorrow.

Well thinking back on all the usb keyboards I've used I dont recall typos like that showing up in any systematic way. I tried the asdf test on my my laptop keyboard right now and it does vary each time.
 
My feeling is this is unique to DAS (or to a SUBSET of usb boards that are using same microcircuitry perhaps).  In which case its a design flaw really. And that would bum me out to see this on high end expensive boards like the das. (especially when they're so PURDY!).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline xsphat

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 06 November 2008, 22:29:08 »
That same thing happens to me all the time. I have never typed the word "just" properly on the first try I always get "jsut." I get my fair share of "teh" and "popele" ans sh*t like that. And then there are THe o9nes lik ethat. KLnow what I'm saying?

I can't type off a document because I never learned to and because I'm a key watcher, but since I started writing, I've always preferred to create on a keyboard, so I am one of the fastest people I know on a keyboard but I can't ever take a test. When I type in the newsroom, people look over at me because I am typing so fast. Because of this I get a lot of errors but it doesn't take too long to fix, and it is worth it to me to be able to type as fast as the thoughts come to me. And when I get into a zone and I'm not too slanted ... this happens less than normal, so I end up with cleaner copy.

And my speed has vastly increased since I started typing exclusively on *mechanical* keyboards, which is why I'll never be off them until their is something better.

Offline sashomasho

  • Posts: 95
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 01:33:03 »
i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea. thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 02:19:16 »
Quote from: sashomasho;10429
i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea. thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...

sounds plausible to me... alpslover, you want to overclock your usb port and do the experiment?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Bodibo

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  • Location: UK
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 03:10:15 »
I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:

asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf

Quote from: wellington1869;10430
sounds plausible to me... alpslover, you want to overclock your usb port and do the experiment?


It is routinely done with mice, and here is a link about how to do it. If I get time I might give it a go myself.

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 03:32:25 »
Quote from: Bodibo;10433
I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:
 
asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf
 
well the g80-3000 is identical to the das, right? (ie, the internals are the same, I believe). So that would make sense I guess if you're seeing the same response there.
 
Would be interesting to see if overclocking usb port helps.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline xsphat

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 03:36:08 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10434
well the g80-3000 is identical to the das, right?


Not Das I, which was a rubber dome keyboard. Das II is the rebranded G80-3000.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 04:20:47 »
For the record, my smk88 USB board does vary as well when I hit asdf. So again I'm thinking this is unique to das or similar boards only.  
Wonder if M10 scorpius does it.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 08:09:19 »
Alpslover, how many words a minute do you type?
Keyboards: HHKB Pro 2 x 2, Filco FKBN87M/EB, FKB104M/EB, SteelSeries 7G, Das III, Das II, Deck Ice 82 Key, RealForce 86u.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 09:41:40 »
Quote from: sashomasho;10429
i'm not sure if this could represent a fix (probably not), but i remember the old days with ps2 mouses, then their sampling rate was 60Hz which was giving quite unevenly mouse movement, then it was common to put the ps2 port to 100Hz which made the mouse movement more smooth and pleasant. today's default usb sample rate is 125Hz, this giving us 8ms between scanning of each keyboard state, which really can be a problem. I think that the usb port can be 'overclocked' by software to something like 1000Hz (I don't know how the das can handle this and i think this is way too much for a keyboard, but let's stay on 1000 because this can be more easily calculated). If you do this, then the keyboard will report its state 8 times more frequently to the computer, which may be exactly what you need - more precision between the different key presses. this is just an idea.


i thought of this as well, and tried it.  i set the usb polling rate to 1000Hz but it didn't make a difference.


Quote
thus said my usb hhkb pro doesn't suffer from this problem, but we know that das iii is doing something internally to achieve 12 key rollover over usb (normally 6), which can have some side effects, some of which probably related to your problem...


i was thinking the same thing, but just now i tried an hp usb keyboard (a cheap rubber dome keyboard without rollover) and it exhibits the same behavior.

it's almost as if the keyboard's microcontroller isn't scanning the keys fast enough and is interpreting fast sequential key presses as simultaneous.

i'm going to take this hp keyboard apart later and make a note of the ic part numbers.  there must be something in common with these keyboards for them to exhibit the same type of behavior.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 09:42:17 »
Quote from: Bodibo;10433
I get the same thing with my G80-3000 and Cherry blues:

asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf


is this a ps/2 or usb keyboard?

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 10:06:22 »
Quote from: Korbin;10443
Alpslover, how many words a minute do you type?


about 110 when i get a nice rhythm going.

the thing is though, i don't necessarily need to work up to a nice fast rhythm for these typos to occur.  sometimes i'll type just a few words into a search box and i'll get 'teh' instead of 'the'.  this is actually more annoying than making the same typo when i'm flying at max speed, because when i'm typing really fast, i expect to make some mistakes.

so it's not so much the overall typing speed, but rather very fast key sequences that throw the keyboard off.

Offline Bodibo

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 11:52:41 »
Quote from: alpslover;10448
is this a ps/2 or usb keyboard?


usb.

Offline philodox

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 11:57:31 »
Have you tried it with a USB to PS/2 adapter?  Does it still exhibit the same behavior?

Offline itlnstln

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 12:21:20 »
I bet it would.  It sounds like they hardcoded some type of hierarchy into the rollover support since USB throughput is less than PS2, thus "cheating" the system to simulate full n-key rollover.  This way it could buffer the sausage-fingered keys and send them when it could.  I suppose in this case, typing very fast "appears" like pressing multiple keys simultaneously.


Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 12:23:00 »
Quote from: philodox;10455
Have you tried it with a USB to PS/2 adapter?  Does it still exhibit the same behavior?


the das iii is meant to be usb only, so the passive usb to ps/2 adapters i have don't work.  i haven't been able to find any active ones.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 12:49:12 »
Quote from: itlnstln;10458
I bet it would.  It sounds like they hardcoded some type of hierarchy into the rollover support since USB throughput is less than PS2, thus "cheating" the system to simulate full n-key rollover.  This way it could buffer the sausage-fingered keys and send them when it could.  I suppose in this case, typing very fast "appears" like pressing multiple keys simultaneously.


i thought it might be related to the das's 12-key rollover support as well, but apparently some other usb keyboards which don't have rollover also exhibit the same issues.

Offline Bodibo

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 13:27:35 »
It happens to me differently on different sections of the board. I can get the asdf to repeat no problem, but other four key combinations aren't so easy. It is very easy to do three keys on the number pad (789789789789789789789789789789789789789). Two keys is easy anywhere. The numbers on the top row of the keyboard will only type something if one or two keys are pressed.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 13:56:19 »
Quote from: Bodibo;10463
It happens to me differently on different sections of the board. I can get the asdf to repeat no problem, but other four key combinations aren't so easy. It is very easy to do three keys on the number pad (789789789789789789789789789789789789789). Two keys is easy anywhere. The numbers on the top row of the keyboard will only type something if one or two keys are pressed.



yes, that means your keyboard doesn't have n-key rollover support, meaning that there's no guarantee that the keyboard will register all non-modifier keypresses if you depress more than one simultaneously.

keyboards with n-key rollover will register each and every key that's pressed at the same time.

there's supposed to be a 6-key limitation for usb keyboards, but the das iii manages to get around it, probably by buffering the additional depressed keys and sending the keyboard state with those keys in the next report.

it does seem, though, that your keyboard has the same issue as the das, for those keys that it does register simultaneously.

here's the ps/2 keyboard i'm using at work, connected to the pc via a ps/2 to usb adapter, hitting the 7, 8, and 9 keys on the number pad:

798
978
798
897
789
789
789
789
789
789
897
897
789
978
789
798
978
789
897
98
897

it doesn't have a consistently repeating pattern like your keyboard does.  your keyboard may actually be okay if your fingers in fact actually are consistently and repeatedly actuating the 789 keys exactly in that sequence, or if you really are actuating those switches at EXACTLY the same instant, every single time.  try switching hands to see if the pattern changes, using both hands at once, or even 'biasing' your keystrokes slightly to break the pattern.  that's what i did on the das and the patterns still didn't change.  eventually they did break if i biased my keystrokes just enough.

Offline sashomasho

  • Posts: 95
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 14:23:53 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10439
Wonder if M10 scorpius does it.


my scorpius says:

dfsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
fdsa
dfsa
fdsa
dfsa
asdf
fdsa
sdfa
fasd
fdsa
fdsa
dsfa
sdfa
dsfa
sfad

879
879
789
879
798
789

Offline philodox

  • Posts: 18
das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 15:14:55 »
afsd
afds
asdf
afsd
fads
fads
fasd
asdf
fdas
afds

Model M ;)

Quote from: alpslover;10459
the das iii is meant to be usb only, so the passive usb to ps/2 adapters i have don't work.  i haven't been able to find any active ones.
Ah, I see.  Does it have its own drivers or does it just use the built in ones?

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 15:29:41 »
Quote from: philodox;10467
Does it have its own drivers or does it just use the built in ones?


it uses the built-in generic hid usb drivers.  the pc i'm using has ps/2 ports, but this particular keyboard behaves oddly when plugged into the ps/2 port.  it works fine with the ps/2 to usb adapter.  strangely enough, model m's don't have any issues plugged directly into the ps/2 port.

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 15:47:41 »
I bet its the keyboard chipset and the 12-key rollover thing. My das is arriving tomorrow, i'll test it soon as it comes. (and return it if its doing it!!!!)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 16:28:20 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10469
I bet its the keyboard chipset and the 12-key rollover thing. My das is arriving tomorrow, i'll test it soon as it comes. (and return it if its doing it!!!!)


i'd bet that it would behave the same way in the rollover test, but you may not necessarily run into the problem during normal typing, so it'd be a shame to return an otherwise very good keyboard simply for that reason.  after all, there are several people here with das iii's and other keyboards that 'fail' the test, but haven't mentioned anything about consistent typo patterns when actually using the keyboards.

i wouldn't even care about the repeating patterns in the rollover test if i didn't actually run into them in normal typing.  the rollover test was just my attempt to find an explanation for the problem.

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 07 November 2008, 20:05:10 »
Quote
it'd be a shame to return an otherwise very good keyboard simply for that reason

well, I dont want it to be producing typos! I guess I'll type on it for a couple of days and see if its an annoying problem. Sounds you type faster than me anyway (I type about 90wpm) so maybe I wont see the problem as often as you do... I'll try it out first. But everytime I make a typo I'm going to tend to blame the 'board! ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 08 November 2008, 09:54:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10475
But everytime I make a typo I'm going to tend to blame the 'board!


if you make these typos noticeably more often on the das than on your other keyboards, and the pattern of the typos is consistent with the output displayed when pressing the keys at the same time in a rollover test, then it may very well be the keyboard.

in the beginning i'd assumed it was just me, that i had to get used to the earlier actuation point of the cherry switches (this was my first cherry-switched keyboard), but what planted the initial seed of suspicion was that often even after i KNEW my fingers hit the keys in the correct sequence, the characters still came out wrong.

Offline wellington1869

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Behold!
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 08 November 2008, 18:08:25 »
Quote from: alpslover;10499
even after i KNEW my fingers hit the keys in the correct sequence, the characters still came out wrong.

On my new DAS III Professional which just arrived today: Behold!
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
eth
 
 
And I too KNOW I was hitting the H key first a efw times in that sequence (and just now it typed "efw" instead of few! Quick test: )
 
wefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwewefwefwef
 
Hmmmmm.  It does follow the efw sequence!
 
its a pity because I love the key feel and noise of the blue cherries.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 08 November 2008, 18:09:33 »
In all honesty, this is one of those things I would have assumed that it was my fault and therefore not noticed it and would have been happy with this board. But now that I've been made aware of it in the keyboard's design, I'm quite indignant.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline iMav

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 08 November 2008, 19:31:38 »
I have to say I am more than a bit disgusted by this revelation.  The list of vendors (at least in the US, anyway) that really cater to "us folk" is pretty small...and it sucks to see that one of them is pimpin' a sub-par product (at a premium price).

They need to step up, fix the problem, and issue a recall.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 09 November 2008, 20:11:57 »
Quote from: iMav;10521
They need to step up, fix the problem, and issue a recall.


maybe they're not aware of the issue.  i haven't contacted their tech support about this, as i first wanted to get some feedback from other owners to see if they've experienced the same problem.

Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 09 November 2008, 23:59:21 »
Quote from: alpslover;10593
maybe they're not aware of the issue. i haven't contacted their tech support about this, as i first wanted to get some feedback from other owners to see if they've experienced the same problem.

Someone (and my eyes are wandering over to iMav) should contact them and let them know. Who knows, maybe they'll offer a replacement? or a rebate? ;) After all this information is now on the most visited keyboard forum in the US. Its bound to be a wake up call for them.
 
If this isnt, the plummetting sales chart as they go into December will be ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline iMav

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 07:52:16 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10603
Someone (and my eyes are wandering over to iMav) should contact them and let them know.

I've notified them via email but have not heard back yet.  I'm pretty sure that they are aware of the reports here at geekhack now.  So, I guess we'll see what their reaction is.  I would hope they are proactive about it...

Offline itlnstln

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 08:24:55 »
The fact that the Das people haven't reported the issues themselves and iMav contacting them about it would suggest they're being pretty reactive about the issue.  It would seem to me that a company started by a keyboard enthusiast and, I would imagine, a pretty fast typist would have found such an issue before it went to market.  I can see; however, where some things like this might sneak through QA, but, then again, this is an enthusiast 'board intended to be used by people that would be able to expose a flaw of this nature.  I hope that when they do finally react, they will in a positive manner and issue recalls, refunds, etc.


Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 08:57:50 »
Quote from: itlnstln;10620
The fact that the Das people haven't reported the issues themselves and iMav contacting them about it would suggest they're being pretty reactive about the issue. It would seem to me that a company started by a keyboard enthusiast and, I would imagine, a pretty fast typist would have found such an issue before it went to market. I can see; however, where some things like this might sneak through QA, but, then again, this is an enthusiast 'board intended to be used by people that would be able to expose a flaw of this nature. I hope that when they do finally react, they will in a positive manner and issue recalls, refunds, etc.

Well I think also this is the kind of issue that only enthusiasts (and other obsessive-compulsives) would ever have noticed. Once its noticed tho, everyone will think poorly of the board, even non-enthusiasts.
 
i hope they respond positively too. They only have one product and basically its got a pretty bad design flaw. Any keyboard that produces its own typos goes against its reason for being.
 
And while they're at it making amends, they should drop the retail price on it too. Its still just a g80 with a usb port. Albeit nicely dressed up one.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lowpoly

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 09:49:57 »
Quote
Its still just a g80 with a usb port.
I don't think it is? The distance between alpha block and cursor block is smaller than the G80's. Same with cursor block and numpad. So it must be a different pcb.

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Offline wellington1869

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 09:57:43 »
Quote from: lowpoly;10623
I don't think it is? The distance between alpha block and cursor block is smaller than the G80's. Same with cursor block numpad. So it must be a different pcb.

Well apparently the g80-3000 is doing the same thing, so even if they've changed pcb design it appears they're still using the same internals...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lowpoly

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 10:14:39 »
Well, it can't be the same controller as the G80 doesn't have the same key rollover. Maybe there's a Cherry part somewhere in there beside the switches, I don't know.

I was just stating the difference to say that the price is actually pretty reasonable because the key pcb is non-standard. I don't think somebody gets rich producing Das Keyboard.

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Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 11:35:21 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10627
Well apparently the g80-3000 is doing the same thing, so even if they've changed pcb design it appears they're still using the same internals...


i'm curious as to whether the ps/2 versions of the g80-3000 exhibit this behavior.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 11:40:51 »
Quote from: lowpoly;10629
Well, it can't be the same controller as the G80 doesn't have the same key rollover. Maybe there's a Cherry part somewhere in there beside the switches, I don't know.


if i had to guess, the das iii is probably designed by cherry to metadot's specifications, implementing diodes to prevent key blocking and a bit of firmware creativity to get 12-key rollover.

Offline lowpoly

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 11:51:27 »
Quote from: alpslover;10637
if i had to guess, the das iii is probably designed by cherry to metadot's specifications
That's what I thought until I read that the III is made in Taiwan. So it might be made by DSI, Costar or some other Taiwanese OEM mfgr.

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Offline lowpoly

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 14:21:56 »
I tried my G80-based project board and it doesn't have the problem. It has a 3rd party controller but still uses the G80's rollover approach: no diodes, more than 16x8 rows/columns.

It must be related to the specific controller.

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Offline lam47

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 18:04:01 »
LMAO oh thats too good.

Hello. My name is Indigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 18:38:18 »
Quote from: webwit;10652
I'm just curious, what does a 12 key roll-over provide over the 6 key roll-over in everyday use?


none that i can think of for normal people.  i'd happily take mere 6-key rollover over 12 if it meant the keyboard would be accurate.

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 18:52:43 »
was just googling around a bit and found this:

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=74661

essentially the same problem, but different keyboard.


and another one:

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B0001UEHHG/ref=pr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Offline alpslover

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 10 November 2008, 18:57:49 »
Quote from: alpslover;10447

i'm going to take this hp keyboard apart later and make a note of the ic part numbers.  there must be something in common with these keyboards for them to exhibit the same type of behavior.


no success.  i took the hp keyboard apart and on the top side of the pcb was a few capacitors and resistors, and on the bottom side of the board was a mound of potting compound.  no way for me to see the part number of the ic.

Offline lowpoly

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das iii typos at higher speeds
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 11 November 2008, 04:19:41 »
For those not reading the ABS thread, it looks like the III is made by Costar:

http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=97&p_sid=32

Credit goes to zwmalone for finding this.

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