Author Topic: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS  (Read 6834 times)

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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 18:21:02 »
So I tested out my typing speeds on a rubber dome vs. an ALPS MCL-101 and found that I score a whopping 10 wpm higher on the latter.

I'm thinking of getting a tenkeyless model, since this board is just too big for my desktop.  My only choices seem to be between a Matias board which uses their own quiet White ALPS-type switches or a Ducky board which uses Black ALPS (I'm guessing the simplified fakes; I'm not sure if these are better or worse than the complicated.)

I see listings on mechanicalkeyboards.com and tigerdirect.com for Ducky keyboards with Green or White ALPS, but they're all out of stock, and I was only able to find Black on eBay, so it seems that those are my only choices for a tenkeyless ALPS model.  I'd rather not try out a Cherry board since I'm finally getting used to this one.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 19:55:40 »
Personally I have no issue with the build quality of typical Alps clones (those from Xiang Min, Hua Jie and Taiwan Tai-Hao) — they're all solid switches. However, Ducky's Alps clone keyboards have a terrible reputation. I've never heard of switch failure, but just about everything else seems to fail on them, from electronics to snapped keycaps. What's worse, is that you can't use them as a tester board, as no other keyboards use Ducky's custom-order lightweight XM switches, and there are no group buys for them for use in other keyboards. Pity, as I'd like to try out those 55 cN XM switches — they're reported to be a similar feel to Cherry MX blue.

Matias quiet switches are probably as good as you'll get for a tactile Alps-type switch (i.e. positive pressure spring on the actuator leaf). The design doesn't seem to lend itself well to non-clicky switches. Matias switches are certainly far better than any tactile Alps switches I've tried. Far smoother and cleaner feel than complicated black Alps, and a perfect weight (salmon Alps are too stiff). They're a huge step up from your MCL-101. Also, they really are exceptionally quiet, so all your concerns about noise are taken care of. A Ducky board will be just as loud if not worse than your Alps keyboard, whereas Matias have done an incredible job with cutting down noise.

Never tried Matias clicky Alps — still waiting for the Tactile Pro PC to go into production and make its way to the UK. Do want!
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 20:40:12 »
Well, I was hoping for a glowing Ducky recommendation, seeing as it's just about 1/3 the price of the Matias, but I may just have to save up the $150 and stick with the oversized MCL-101 for now.  I don't particularly like the idea of something from way over in Taiwan being DOA or having issues.

I could buy 15 rubber dome keyboards for that... damn.  Too bad there are no more picks for ALPS keyboards.

Offline kmiller8

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 20:46:38 »
Just to chime in here, yes the keycaps are terribad on the Ducky 1000 XM's, however as long as you treat it decent (don't try to wipe your keyboard and put lateral force on the keycaps) it should last you plenty time. And as you mentioned you can get one for like $40 something shipped direct from taiwan. I'd recommend you get one if you really want to try alps type switches.

Kind of like what daniel said, most of the problems I've seen with the ducky 1000s is more keycap/case (dropped or summin) related than switch/controller. You can always get more keycaps or another case :thumb:

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 20:59:20 »
There's a good reason that it's 1/3 the price ;-)

The problem with using them as a tryout board, is that the switches are unique. They're custom-ordered by Ducky from Xiang Min. It's not like Cherry MX where you can upgrade to a quality board.

Also, as far as I am aware, Ducky only offer clicky and linear Alps clone switches, not tactile. Matias on the other hand, don't sell linear. Tactile Alps clone switches are extremely rare; Fuhua aside (which are not clones), the only tactile Alps clone I know besides Matias is a Taiwan Tai-Hao APC series switch with a modified leaf, a bit like SMK second generation. They're even less tactile than MX brown. I have a couple of them as samples from Taiwan Tai-Hao — I have no idea what keyboards even use them (or their linear switches for that matter); I really need to photograph their sample switches one day.

Matias is a more realistic bet, as Matias Corp intend for other companies to make keyboards with those switches, and there are already enthusiasts using them for switch replacement jobs. Their keyboards are also very solid.
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Offline kmiller8

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 21:01:44 »
I guess I should try to get a matias.

Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 21:32:26 »
I wonder, would the keycaps from my MCL-101 fit on the Ducky switches, or are the ALPS clones somehow a different fit from the Complicated ALPS?

Offline justin.wu

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 23:04:00 »
Hi !!

I have tell you first , Ducky use switch isn't ALPS , just sw mold like ALPS , but switch inside different with ALPS original , Ducky use Taiwan company ( XM ) , just like filco use before .

and Matias have a new tooling mold switch (switch inside all clone ALPS ) .

Ducky use XM switch
Matias use there own switch , but all just like ALPS

So I tested out my typing speeds on a rubber dome vs. an ALPS MCL-101 and found that I score a whopping 10 wpm higher on the latter.

I'm thinking of getting a tenkeyless model, since this board is just too big for my desktop.  My only choices seem to be between a Matias board which uses their own quiet White ALPS-type switches or a Ducky board which uses Black ALPS (I'm guessing the simplified fakes; I'm not sure if these are better or worse than the complicated.)

I see listings on mechanicalkeyboards.com and tigerdirect.com for Ducky keyboards with Green or White ALPS, but they're all out of stock, and I was only able to find Black on eBay, so it seems that those are my only choices for a tenkeyless ALPS model.  I'd rather not try out a Cherry board since I'm finally getting used to this one.
make different

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 08:04:52 »
If we're going to be pedantic, the company is Xiang Min (祥敏企業有限公司), not "XM". The switch isn't called an "XM" either, it's the KSB series. Specifications are on the Xiang Min website.

Yes, you can swap keycaps between a lot of switches, including the common Alps type (e.g. SKCL and SKCM), Alps integrated dome, Fuhua, Matias, Omron B3G-S series, Acer, Hua-Jie AK series, Xiang Min KSB series, Taiwan Tai-Hao APC and Aruz series, SMK "Monterey", actual Monterey, and more. "Alps mount", formerly "Z mount", was a very widely used specification, so you can harvest keycaps from a lot of vintage keyboards.

Alps low-profile oval slider (found in some Atari 800XL keyboards and some vintage Toshiba laptops, for example) appears to require that the keycap itself have a slot inside the post, which many keycaps do have, but some do not. This was never a requirement of keycaps for the common Alps switches, or any other switch so far as I am aware.
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:09:01 »
Seeing as I have an entire original ALPS keyboard to salvage for keycaps if the need arises, and one of Ducky's major problems is broken keycaps, it may not be a huge risk to get one.  I have read some of the other stuff about uneven cases, where one side is one the table while the other hovers a few millimeters in the air.

I'm not sure if you've (Daniel) tried them personally, but do the Xiang Min Black Alps feel the same as the original Black ALPS?  I am somewhat worried since the Xiang Min website appears to no longer manufacture them and I'm assuming the entire architecture of the original and XM clones are not swappable.

On the other hand, Matias switch replacements are easily available from what I can see.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:15:46 by abdulmuhsee »

Offline kmiller8

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:10:47 »
Yes, you can swap keycaps between a lot of switches, including the common Alps type (e.g. SKCL and SKCM), Alps integrated dome, Fuhua, Matias, Omron B3G-S series, Acer, Hua-Jie AK series, Xiang Min KSB series, Taiwan Tai-Hao APC and Aruz series, SMK "Monterey", actual Monterey, and more. "Alps mount", formerly "Z mount", was a very widely used specification, so you can harvest keycaps from a lot of vintage keyboards.

non-stablized caps sure, but anything with a stablizer is pure luck if they'll match up from different keyboards.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:28:28 »
I'm not sure if you've (Daniel) tried them personally, but do the Xiang Min Black Alps feel the same as the original Black ALPS?  I am somewhat worried since the Xiang Min website appears to no longer manufacture them and I'm assuming the entire architecture of the original and XM clones are not swappable.

The reason they're called Alps "clones" is that they're 100% interchangeable with real Alps switches. This includes plate height, key height, mounting hole dimensions, pin spacing etc. For example, you can buy a Filco Zero XM keyboard and replace the XM switches with real Alps, or Matias, or the switches from a Ducky keyboard.

Ducky custom-order their switches, so they're not shown on the Xiang Min website, nor are they found in any other keyboard. From what Xiang Min said, I am assuming that all the switches Ducky order are 55 gf (~ 55 cN).

Black Alps switches are tactile. Ducky black XM switches are linear, so no, they will feel quite different.
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 15:07:01 »
So in other words, if I have a problem with any keycaps or switches in the Ducky keyboard, the keycaps and switches in my MCL-101 are interchangeable (i.e. - I could take an F1 key or something on the Ducky and use it to repair the damaged letter, then fill in the F1 key with an original ALPS or some other clone).

Based on that, I might actually get the Ducky since I'm not quite ready to sink $150 into a keyboard.  A pack of 90 of those Matias switches is $32, so with some elbow grease, I could even essentially have the Matias board if I'm understanding this correctly.

I read ripster's guide to repairing ALPS switches, and it doesn't seem all too difficult to pinch them out with the two flatheads, so I seem to have a backup plan if something goes wrong with the keyboard (unless the entire circuit board underneath fails or something).

Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 15:10:33 »
I attempted to edit my post but accidentally quoted; sorry for the double post!

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 15:17:06 »
You can't swap a single switch, unless you want that key to feel funny. You know how, when you press a key, there's a "give" point where the key drops? That's missing on the black XM Ducky keyboard. The key just keeps on going until the bottom — that's called a linear switch.

I just want to be sure that you understand that the black Ducky XM switches are *NOT* the same as the ones in the MCL-101, which are tactile, i.e. there's a force build-up and "give" point, which is what you'll get from the Matias switches, only Matias's product is ten times better.

If you want a cheap Alps-style TKL, I'd suggest that you buy a Filco Zero XM (hopefully cheaply, as the switches suck — they're ridiculously stiff). Then swap out the switches with Matias ones. That's all a Filco Zero XM is good for: somewhere to solder in better switches :)
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 16:04:06 »
You can't swap a single switch, unless you want that key to feel funny. You know how, when you press a key, there's a "give" point where the key drops? That's missing on the black XM Ducky keyboard. The key just keeps on going until the bottom — that's called a linear switch.

Right, that's why I said if something goes wrong with a switch under a letter, I can take, say, the F1 key switch from the same keyboard to repair it, then it would inconsequential to replace the F1 key with a different switch, since it's not a key used while typing.

Quote
I just want to be sure that you understand that the black Ducky XM switches are *NOT* the same as the ones in the MCL-101, which are tactile, i.e. there's a force build-up and "give" point, which is what you'll get from the Matias switches, only Matias's product is ten times better.

So basically, I'd have to bottom out like on a rubber dome with the Ducky, while the Matias would have a less jarring activation point.

Quote
If you want a cheap Alps-style TKL, I'd suggest that you buy a Filco Zero XM (hopefully cheaply, as the switches suck — they're ridiculously stiff). Then swap out the switches with Matias ones. That's all a Filco Zero XM is good for: somewhere to solder in better switches :)

Well, I can't find a Filco Zero XM anywhere, but I can guarantee there will be no soldering going on in this house; I don't quite have the time or initiative to learn a new trade at the moment :-).  If ripster's guide is accurate: http://imgur.com/a/elAFF#0, couldn't I just yank out the switch and plug a new one in?

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 16:17:50 »
Linear mechanical switches still actuate around mid travel (half way down), but there's neither tactile nor audible feedback to this effect. When you reach half way, the switch makes connection, but you hear nothing and you feel nothing. My first computer had Futaba linear switches, and for the three years I owned it, I had no idea that I didn't need to bottom out the switches. The idea that the switches made contact half way was lost on me, as linear switches offer no feedback.

You cannot yank out the switches. They're soldered onto a printed circuit board. Ripster is demonstrating how to open the top of the switch and remove most of the insides, but the base remains soldered in place. If you follow his instructions, you can (in a roundabout way) convert Alps complicated black to complicated blue, but you can't swap the insides of genuine Alps with the insides of Alps clones, as they're completely different on the inside. They're only the same dimensions on the outside, nothing more.

(Someone in the Far East has just designed a keyboard that allows for switches to be yanked out, but in general, no, it's a soldering job. Some keyboards lack the steel or (in rare cases) aluminium mounting plate that supports the switches, but they're always soldered in place.

I wouldn't worry about XM switches failing, though.
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 16:25:34 »
Well, as long as the Xiang Min switches are just as durable and long-lasting as the other switches on the market (and keycaps are what I need to worry about with a Ducky, which thankfully can just be yanked off and on), then I don't see the harm in giving it a try.  I'm intrigued by mechanical keyboards and enjoy rediscovering the feeling, but I'm not quite ready to drop $150, especially if switches can't just be swapped in or out.

I'll have to go over to dad's house sometime and see exactly what keyboard it was that I used in my childhood.

edit:  I just called him and he gave the whole computer to Goodwill a year ago!  Gah!  Now I'll never know what kind of switches that AT&T keyboard had.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 August 2013, 16:35:10 by abdulmuhsee »

Offline Burz

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 01:55:17 »
Well, as long as the Xiang Min switches are just as durable and long-lasting as the other switches on the market (and keycaps are what I need to worry about with a Ducky, which thankfully can just be yanked off and on), then I don't see the harm in giving it a try.  I'm intrigued by mechanical keyboards and enjoy rediscovering the feeling, but I'm not quite ready to drop $150, especially if switches can't just be swapped in or out.

Matias also has a version for $20 less that omits the numeric keypad, if that helps. I'm typing on a mini Quiet Pro right now and think its great.

You will discover that most GHers seem to prefer compact/tenkeyless keyboards... though I think some people take it too far. Most people don't key in many numbers these days, and having a narrower keyboard frees up room on a keyboard tray or desktop so it makes using the mouse easier.

BTW, did you know you can order switches separately from Matias and solder them into your ALPS? IIRC the price is less than 25 cents/switch. Might be an option if you're good at de/soldering.
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 15:30:08 »
Matias also has a version for $20 less that omits the numeric keypad, if that helps. I'm typing on a mini Quiet Pro right now and think its great.

Yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of, still being $140 after shipping as opposed to the $160 full size.  It's only available on the Matias site as well, so I can't get it elsewhere for more of a bargain.  I still might save up for it, since the only remaining ALPS Ducky keyboards are on eBay for almost twice the cost as they were on pchome (sold out).  And Ducky will not be making any more as far as I can tell.  Unless I could buy one secondhand from someone, I may as well just get the Matias.

Quote
BTW, did you know you can order switches separately from Matias and solder them into your ALPS? IIRC the price is less than 25 cents/switch. Might be an option if you're good at de/soldering.

Well, like I said in this thread, I can't solder, and I also have no problem with the switches in my ALPS MCL-101; it's the size that's getting to me.  The keyboard is shifted off-center - to the left of the monitor - due to the annoying numpad taking up room I need for the mouse.  If I could just chop off the numpad and still have a working/nice looking keyboard, then all would be well.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 15:40:50 »
… I also have no problem with the switches in my ALPS MCL-101; it's the size that's getting to me …

I used my Quiet Pro again today. Trust me, the difference between complicated black Alps and Matias quiet switches is like night and day. They're not smooth like Cherry MX clear, but the force curve is very natural, and the weighting is perfect: not heavy like Alps, and not light like Cherry MX.

(Ducky not making any more 1000-series boards? I wonder why .....)
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Offline Burz

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 20 August 2013, 01:17:21 »
I'll second Daniel's comparison: My Dell is practically identical to your ALPS, and the Matias feels 100% better to type on. The Dell's black switches do have an interesting trick, though: The more humidity is in the air, the smoother they are, so I began to look forward to muggy and rainy days when they felt quite good.

I know exactly what you mean about using mice with wide keyboards. It was not that long ago that most data was manually reported then keyed-in, instead of electronically sensed as it is today.
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Offline abdulmuhsee

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 20 August 2013, 11:55:23 »
I used my Quiet Pro again today. Trust me, the difference between complicated black Alps and Matias quiet switches is like night and day. They're not smooth like Cherry MX clear, but the force curve is very natural, and the weighting is perfect: not heavy like Alps, and not light like Cherry MX.

(Ducky not making any more 1000-series boards? I wonder why .....)

Matias it is then; others have stated that the 1087 case was super duper light as well, which is a no-no for me.  I just need to smooth talk the wife about using $150 for a keyboard...

Looks like my keyboards will be looking an awful lot like your signature, Burz.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 20 August 2013, 12:54:47 »
Yeah, my Quiet Pro is nice and heavy.
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Offline Burz

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Re: Matias Quiet Pro vs. Ducky Black ALPS
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 09:12:38 »
I used my Quiet Pro again today. Trust me, the difference between complicated black Alps and Matias quiet switches is like night and day. They're not smooth like Cherry MX clear, but the force curve is very natural, and the weighting is perfect: not heavy like Alps, and not light like Cherry MX.

(Ducky not making any more 1000-series boards? I wonder why .....)

Matias it is then; others have stated that the 1087 case was super duper light as well, which is a no-no for me.  I just need to smooth talk the wife about using $150 for a keyboard...

Looks like my keyboards will be looking an awful lot like your signature, Burz.

Check this out:

http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=523

The Mini Quiet Pro is listed for $124 with free shipping. The page shows as 'out of stock', so you might want to call/email them to see when they're getting more. They also have a forum here on GH.
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.