filco mini with brown cherries

[bigpook]

I have been using the filco since I got it last Wednesday. Its a nice keyboard and all but I have some questions on the keys.
If I type at speed it is fine, however I notice when I type very slow, the keys do not feel smooth as they are depressed, its somewhat disconcerting to me. I don't experience this on the HHKB or the BS keys. Maybe its because its new?

Anyways just curious.

[wellington1869]

the keys do not feel smooth as they are depressed, its somewhat disconcerting to me.

do you mean key friction? The browns arent as smooth as topre. I've tried both topre and browns and there's no question topre's are smoother than browns.  so I imagine it would be different from your HHKB.
That said, browns arent rough either. On my compaq 11800 they're smooth enough that its not been an issue.

[bigpook]

I guess you could call it key friction. Its not noticeable though when you are typing quickly though. I wouldn't say they are rough either, you have to press the key slowly to even notice it. So its not really a question of breaking them in then.

[wellington1869]

So its not really a question of breaking them in then.

I dont think so. Tho I'd be curious to see what you think after a month or so. My compaq came pre-broken-in obviously.  

[bigpook]

So if you depress the key slowly on the Compaq  do you find it smooth or not?
The BS and HHKB keys are incredibly smooth for me. The difference is notable.

[wellington1869]

So if you depress the key slowly on the Compaq  do you find it smooth or not?
The BS and HHKB keys are incredibly smooth for me. The difference is notable.

I'll try it soon as I get home. (Sitting in starbucks at the moment
But from what I remember, its a sensation that I would have called smooth UNTIL i tried the topre. At which point Topre became my new definition of smooth.

[bigpook]

no doubt, the topre switch is like ultra-glide.

[Chloe]

I have two Compaq MX 11800, the older one is nicely broken in and the other is practically new.

On the newer Compaq the keys are noticably stiffer* and there is some plastic friction like I have on my Cherry G84-4100, but I hear it more than feel it. I think this lessens with use. On the older Compaq I only feel the tactile bump if I press keys slowly, something I do not notice when typing normally on both.

* The switches look identical in both keyboards. The difference between broken in and new was such that I almost opened up the switches to compare the springs. The stiffness of the newer Compaq has put me off getting a Filco. If I do upgrade it'll probably be a Realforce.

[bigpook]

So they do breakin over time. Overall they are nice keys though.
Just to be clear, its not like its awful or anything, its just something I noticed.

[Chloe]

How does the spring tension in the brown MX feel compared to the HHKB?

[wellington1869]

How does the spring tension in the brown MX feel compared to the HHKB?

On my well-broken in compaq, I feel the resistance may be too light. Its great to type on fast though.

[Chloe]

You might prefer new brown MX in that case. I don't know how long they will take to break in though. I prefer the lighter feel of the older Compaq, although I bottom out more on it than I do on the Cherry G84-4100. It's hard not to since the keys are so light. It doesn't bother me so much since I can type faster on the Compaq and it feels much more transparent.

[wellington1869]

So if you depress the key slowly on the Compaq  do you find it smooth or not?

Tried it at home. If i depress slowly, its one of these things where if you really focus and concentrate then you can feel some friction as the key moves downwards.

[bigpook]

Tried it at home. If i depress slowly, its one of these things where if you really focus and concentrate then you can feel some friction as the key moves downwards.

Same here, but its not present when you type normal though. I guess thats the way it is.

[Chloe]

How does the spring tension in the brown MX feel compared to the HHKB?

Assuming soft tactile feel refers to brown MX:
Operating Force is 2.0 oz. (56.7g)
Tactile Force is 2.3 oz. (65.2g)

The HHKB are 45g.

[bigpook]

Assuming soft tactile feel refers to brown MX:
Operating Force is 2.0 oz. (56.7g)
Tactile Force is 2.3 oz. (65.2g)

The HHKB are 45g.

Does anyone know what the difference is between operating and tactile force?

So if I read that correctly, it takes more force to depress a brown cherry than a HHKB key.
That doesn't line up with my experience though, I think its the other way around.

[Chloe]

So if I read that correctly, it takes more force to depress a brown cherry than a HHKB key.

It seems so. According to the part numbers my assumption was correct, "alternate action" is white MX, leaving linear and click.

That doesn't line up with my experience though, I think its the other way around.

Thanks. This reminds me of trying to compare microphone response graphs. You can only trust how it feels.

[wellington1869]

Assuming soft tactile feel refers to brown MX:
Operating Force is 2.0 oz. (56.7g)
Tactile Force is 2.3 oz. (65.2g)

The HHKB are 45g.

"Soft tactile" may not refer to browns.  When I ordered individual switches from digikey, "soft tactile" was white cherry. See here.

[Chloe]

Thanks. It looks like browns aren't covered on the MX page. Aside from blue and black, there is only "alternate action" and "higher force" which aren't tactile. Still, the operating force for a blue is 51g, and they're lighter than browns. I wonder how the white MX compare to new brown MX.

I am guessing the figures given by Topre are for the spring alone and the rubber dome contributes to the key resistance. This might explain why they feel heavier.

[itlnstln]

I think there are several versions of white mx switches.  I have heard that, mainly, they are like stiffer blues.  I have also read here that some are linear.  It could be that the white top is a generic interface, and the guts of the switch could be different depending on the keyboard design.

[bigpook]

the blues are lighter than the browns? I have both, I need to check that out. My initial impression was that they were both "light" but the blues were noiser.

[wellington1869]

the blues are lighter than the browns? I have both, I need to check that out. My initial impression was that they were both "light" but the blues were noiser.

they're both pretty light. very light.

[bigpook]

they're both pretty light. very light.

they sure are, especially compared to a BS key and even the topre. In my opinion the topre are more tactile.

[Eclairz]

So if I read that correctly, it takes more force to depress a brown cherry than a HHKB key.
That doesn't line up with my experience though, I think its the other way around.

I think its been said by iMav that the MX keys put pressure at different times through a keystroke. Where the MX browns have their peak pressure point in the middle of the keystroke but initially have a much lower pressure until peak, whereas an alps key may have a lower peak but from start until middle there is always tension and thats why alps keys feel much more heavier to type on.

To be honest i prefer the sound of alps and the pressure of cherry browns/blues. I haven't tried a topre based keyboard yet so I don't know how they feel. I guess the rubber will give more initial pressure vs the brown's spring which may make the browns feel lighter even though their peak pressure is higher.

Just like choosing a good camera lens not all is as it seems, you gotta look at curves and how they work.

[Chloe]

There are some graphs here:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

[xsphat]

I think its been said by iMav that the MX keys put pressure at different times through a keystroke. Where the MX browns have their peak pressure point in the middle of the keystroke but initially have a much lower pressure until peak, whereas an alps key may have a lower peak but from start until middle there is always tension and thats why alps keys feel much more heavier to type on.

Big Pook, I had the same question when I got my Filco. I think the quote above is the true answer, though I don't agree with the Alps part.

Alps whites are weighted at 65g if memory serves, the Model M is 80g, and the HHKB Pro is 45g, but I think the Alps whites take about the same force as the HHKB Pro, and the Modle M feels like it takes nearly twice as much than either.

[itlnstln]

There are some graphs here:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

This site is awesome; especially with the diagrams on how all the different switches work.  I have seen it listed on here many times, and I just thought I would share jubilation with everyone here.  Thanks, and have a nice day.

[bigpook]

Thats a nice link Chloe, I need to study it more when I get home....
xsphat, I don't have a alps keyboard to compare it with. I need to verify this but I think I can get the key to register before the bump. I will check this out when I get home.

[itlnstln]

The way the clicky Alps work, the click is the activation.  A leaf spring snaps down (the click) and turns the switch on.  On Cherrys, the click and turning the switch on are seperate events.  You'll see it when you get to look at Chloe's link.

[bigpook]

ahhh! so the red line is the "bump" and the blue line is the switch actuating? That makes sense to me now.

[itlnstln]

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech.htm

The Cherry section (as well as the others) has some good illustration that further proves the point.

[lowpoly]

ahhh! so the red line is the "bump" and the blue line is the switch actuating? That makes sense to me now.

I think the red line is pressing the switch down and the blue one the switch coming up again.

[alpslover]

The way the clicky Alps work, the click is the activation.  A leaf spring snaps down (the click) and turns the switch on.  

that's only true for the leaf spring type alps switches.  the 'bigfoot' alps switches as found on our dell, sgi, focus, northgate, etc keyboards have separate mechanisms for actuation and tactility/sound.

[itlnstln]

Thanks for the correction.  I did not see how tactility worked on the wakwak.com link.  Do they show it there, or do they skip the tactility part?

[bhtooefr]

Bah, that means I used the wrong Alps switch on the shirt design - I used a leaf spring switch.

[bigpook]

I think the red line is pressing the switch down and the blue one the switch coming up again.

Dang, are you sure, I am trying to make sense of this.

[Chloe]

There are some more detailed graphs in this pdf:
http://www.cherry.de/english/switches_controls/images/cherry-switch-keymodule-mx-en.pdf

Here's the Realforce for comparison:
http://www.leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1208689591

[bigpook]

Thanks Chloe, let me check that out.

[lowpoly]

Dang, are you sure, I am trying to make sense of this.

I know that this is the case with other graphs I've seen.

[Eclairz]

For anyone still wondering about how Cherry Keys work heres the original post discussing the Cherry MX keys

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=155&highlight=cherry+animation&page=3

And Heres the nice animation on how the blue cherries work which shows how more of the pressure is nearer the end

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/cherry_mx_click.swf