What makes Topre so great for typing?

[fuzzybaffy]

It ain't my problem if people feel inferior for liking Cherry MX products.

I'm not saying people are inferior for liking Cherry MX products, but that some people feel that way. They, for some reason, get offended when people express their personal preference of Topre over Cherry boards. And I rarely see it the other way around (ie. Topre fans getting offended that Cherry MX users like their Cherry boards). 

Yea, I see some people pretty strongly defending Topre, but that's because some Cherry fans make it a point to come into Topre threads and bash the hell out of them. Topre users don't go into Cherry threads and bash Cherry switches.

[Polymer]

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

I don't think you've provided any data either...not that I really care either way.  And talking about high end ergonomic keyboards preferring Cherry MX...they really don't have a choice as far as choosing Topre or not so using that as a data point is probably not a good one.  We don't know what people would prefer (Topre vs. MX) in an ergo keyboard because one of those options does not exist...and I'm sure you know that already..

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

I'm sure he could search for them but asking someone to run around looking for something like that is a waste of time...I'll confirm I've seen people say this on here...a number of people have talked about Topre being just rubber dome only to admit they haven't used them...there are also plenty of people that bash Topre after having touched it for a matter of minutes (or hours) which you have mentioned and yet you seem to think these opinions are valid (based on your previous comments) and think Topre people are just making it up that you really do need to give it more time than that.  Why do they say that?  I'd probably guess that a good number of Topre users at first were a bit underwhelmed by it at first..MYSELF included.  Then after using it for awhile and going back and forth to your Alps or Cherry, etc...a lot of people will start to really appreciate a Topre....and many WILL NOT.  Either way, because it has taken people some time to appreciate it and had identical reactions to the people judging it for a few minutes/hours, they of course feel like those people haven't given it enough time..and they're probably right.  It is probably very much like an Ergodox...Plenty of people won't like or be used to the layout for quite awhile..and if they don't really give it enough time they may never hit that point where they appreciate it or where they've actually given it a real fair chance and decided it isn't for them.

But really it is all irrelevant...some people like Topre..some don't..whatever you like is your own personal preference. 

There used to be an argument about the high cost made people like their Topre because they had to justify that...but we know this isn't true as they could have done what many have done and just sold their keyboard.  We also know the cheaper new Topres (like the Leopold) have made it far more affordable for some to try and if anything, we've seen an increase in Topre activity as a result....It also doesn't make sense considering people pay just as much for their Cherry boards with everything added up (Extra set of keycaps, etc).

Also, to add my extra 2 cents in...I think Topres are great for typing....they feel great, responsive, smooth, stable and a bit tactile bump...
I think Cherry MX is far better for gaming...and they're also so much more flexible with what you can do with them.

If I only had to pick one, I'd pick Cherry..because I think they're very good for typing and great for gaming.  Thankfully I don't have to pick just one so I can use Topre for work and Cherry for my gamer. 

[Shuki]

For me topre is the nicest feeling switch, I also like blues but they are just not as comfortable to type on if you bottom out, although the sound is nice. It's just a matter of personal taste as well as typing style.

As for why topre gets so much hate, well its a lot of money to put down for a keyboard. People who want to try it might not be able to because of the price and bash it because of that (in terms of mark up it is extremely high in price). As topre is the highest priced board and people will often judge whats the best by the price, there is a lot of elitism which also generates hateful comments.

An example for me would be tp4tissue talking all the time about how his ergodox is the best board of all time. This immediately gave me a massive dislike for that keyboard even though I've never used one. I guess is anyone acting smugly and arrogantly dismissing other peoples opinions will derive a negative response.

[PadawanGeek]

I'm quite new here, but before joining GH, I was posting in a local tech forum under the Mech KB section. Also, at about the time I'd joined GH, I'd already amassed a collection of more than 10 KB's including including two with Topre switch. I'd gotten a used Topre RF 105UB-55G from a guy in the local tech forum, nice fellow, he has a number of Topre boards, I guess he didn't like the 55G uniform weight on the that board. I tried it and loved how it felt, different from Cherry switches (already had Red, Black, Brown, Blue and Green), different, but not necessarily superior.....just different. I love the heaviness of the 103UB-55G, hence my love for Cherry Black and Green, will be getting a Leopold FC660M Clear in a week or so, just to see if I am going to like Clears.

Topre has a smoother feel to it, I find myself making less errors and generally enjoying typing on it....heck, typing this post with my Topre. I was, still am, into this <TKL keyboard phase, so I'd gotten the Pro 2 as well (as well as having the FC660M on its way) and admittedly, the 45G weight throughout the keys was a tad light for me, but I do enjoy typing on my Pro 2 as well. The Pro 2 cost me almost 325USD locally, but if I were to buy it from EK, shipping cost would bring it closer to the price I'd paid, plus I lose out on the warranty.

Having typed, and gamed, on both Cherry and Topre switches, I cannot say which is superior, if at all, and as others had said, it boils down to preference. In a way, Topre can be cheaper than Cherry KB's in the long run......all these GB's and whatnot involve Cherry keyboards, very little on Topre. I'm sure most of you guys here know how financially draining it can be to hang out in the GB and Classified sections.....hence, my avoidance of these. So far, I've been sucked into the Miami GB, mentally wanking off to the Bumblebee GB......it never ends over there it seems. Some of the guys in the local forums have said that buying Topre is cheaper in the long run as you're not involved in these GB's......now, I kind of agree with what they'd said. Only snag is......I have >10 mechanical KB's with Cherry switches!

[Michael]

The more I read davkol's responses, the more I have to just shake my head and wonder if this person is even aware of the words he's typing. Because I believe I might be speaking to a wall.

[fuzzybaffy]

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

I don't think you've provided any data either...not that I really care either way.  And talking about high end ergonomic keyboards preferring Cherry MX...they really don't have a choice as far as choosing Topre or not so using that as a data point is probably not a good one.  We don't know what people would prefer (Topre vs. MX) in an ergo keyboard because one of those options does not exist...and I'm sure you know that already..

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

I'm sure he could search for them but asking someone to run around looking for something like that is a waste of time...I'll confirm I've seen people say this on here...a number of people have talked about Topre being just rubber dome only to admit they haven't used them...there are also plenty of people that bash Topre after having touched it for a matter of minutes (or hours) which you have mentioned and yet you seem to think these opinions are valid (based on your previous comments) and think Topre people are just making it up that you really do need to give it more time than that.  Why do they say that?  I'd probably guess that a good number of Topre users at first were a bit underwhelmed by it at first..MYSELF included.  Then after using it for awhile and going back and forth to your Alps or Cherry, etc...a lot of people will start to really appreciate a Topre....and many WILL NOT.  Either way, because it has taken people some time to appreciate it and had identical reactions to the people judging it for a few minutes/hours, they of course feel like those people haven't given it enough time..and they're probably right.  It is probably very much like an Ergodox...Plenty of people won't like or be used to the layout for quite awhile..and if they don't really give it enough time they may never hit that point where they appreciate it or where they've actually given it a real fair chance and decided it isn't for them.

But really it is all irrelevant...some people like Topre..some don't..whatever you like is your own personal preference. 

There used to be an argument about the high cost made people like their Topre because they had to justify that...but we know this isn't true as they could have done what many have done and just sold their keyboard.  We also know the cheaper new Topres (like the Leopold) have made it far more affordable for some to try and if anything, we've seen an increase in Topre activity as a result....It also doesn't make sense considering people pay just as much for their Cherry boards with everything added up (Extra set of keycaps, etc).

Also, to add my extra 2 cents in...I think Topres are great for typing....they feel great, responsive, smooth, stable and a bit tactile bump...
I think Cherry MX is far better for gaming...and they're also so much more flexible with what you can do with them.

If I only had to pick one, I'd pick Cherry..because I think they're very good for typing and great for gaming.  Thankfully I don't have to pick just one so I can use Topre for work and Cherry for my gamer. 

See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.

Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.

[demik]

Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:

1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars.  Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect.  I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it."  NO.  Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.

please stop self diagnose OCD.

that is not OCD, that's just being picky.

[Game Theory]

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml

[demik]

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml

my cousin just got recently diagnosed with severe OCD and it ****ing irks me when people say they have OCD simply because they are picky about something or are tidy.

[spiceBar]

switch != keyboard

Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.

I don't think you've provided any data either...not that I really care either way.  And talking about high end ergonomic keyboards preferring Cherry MX...they really don't have a choice as far as choosing Topre or not so using that as a data point is probably not a good one.  We don't know what people would prefer (Topre vs. MX) in an ergo keyboard because one of those options does not exist...and I'm sure you know that already..

Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.

I'm sure he could search for them but asking someone to run around looking for something like that is a waste of time...I'll confirm I've seen people say this on here...a number of people have talked about Topre being just rubber dome only to admit they haven't used them...there are also plenty of people that bash Topre after having touched it for a matter of minutes (or hours) which you have mentioned and yet you seem to think these opinions are valid (based on your previous comments) and think Topre people are just making it up that you really do need to give it more time than that.  Why do they say that?  I'd probably guess that a good number of Topre users at first were a bit underwhelmed by it at first..MYSELF included.  Then after using it for awhile and going back and forth to your Alps or Cherry, etc...a lot of people will start to really appreciate a Topre....and many WILL NOT.  Either way, because it has taken people some time to appreciate it and had identical reactions to the people judging it for a few minutes/hours, they of course feel like those people haven't given it enough time..and they're probably right.  It is probably very much like an Ergodox...Plenty of people won't like or be used to the layout for quite awhile..and if they don't really give it enough time they may never hit that point where they appreciate it or where they've actually given it a real fair chance and decided it isn't for them.

But really it is all irrelevant...some people like Topre..some don't..whatever you like is your own personal preference. 

There used to be an argument about the high cost made people like their Topre because they had to justify that...but we know this isn't true as they could have done what many have done and just sold their keyboard.  We also know the cheaper new Topres (like the Leopold) have made it far more affordable for some to try and if anything, we've seen an increase in Topre activity as a result....It also doesn't make sense considering people pay just as much for their Cherry boards with everything added up (Extra set of keycaps, etc).

Also, to add my extra 2 cents in...I think Topres are great for typing....they feel great, responsive, smooth, stable and a bit tactile bump...
I think Cherry MX is far better for gaming...and they're also so much more flexible with what you can do with them.

If I only had to pick one, I'd pick Cherry..because I think they're very good for typing and great for gaming.  Thankfully I don't have to pick just one so I can use Topre for work and Cherry for my gamer. 

See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.

Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.

Identifying oneself as "a Topre user" or "a Cherry MX user" is a mistake in the first place anyway.

[eth0s]

An example for me would be tp4tissue talking all the time about how his ergodox is the best board of all time. This immediately gave me a massive dislike for that keyboard even though I've never used one.

So much wisdom.  ergodox is not that great.

Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:

1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars.  Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect.  I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it."  NO.  Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.

please stop self diagnose OCD.

that is not OCD, that's just being picky.

^ +1.  Yeah, I have to agree.  OCD is a serious mental illness.  You are trivializing it, and you're probably offending anybody who really suffers from it, or has a family member who suffers from it.

[Emospence]

I'm quite new here, but before joining GH, I was posting in a local tech forum under the Mech KB section. Also, at about the time I'd joined GH, I'd already amassed a collection of more than 10 KB's including including two with Topre switch. I'd gotten a used Topre RF 105UB-55G from a guy in the local tech forum, nice fellow, he has a number of Topre boards, I guess he didn't like the 55G uniform weight on the that board. I tried it and loved how it felt, different from Cherry switches (already had Red, Black, Brown, Blue and Green), different, but not necessarily superior.....just different. I love the heaviness of the 103UB-55G, hence my love for Cherry Black and Green, will be getting a Leopold FC660M Clear in a week or so, just to see if I am going to like Clears.

Topre has a smoother feel to it, I find myself making less errors and generally enjoying typing on it....heck, typing this post with my Topre. I was, still am, into this <TKL keyboard phase, so I'd gotten the Pro 2 as well (as well as having the FC660M on its way) and admittedly, the 45G weight throughout the keys was a tad light for me, but I do enjoy typing on my Pro 2 as well. The Pro 2 cost me almost 325USD locally, but if I were to buy it from EK, shipping cost would bring it closer to the price I'd paid, plus I lose out on the warranty.

Having typed, and gamed, on both Cherry and Topre switches, I cannot say which is superior, if at all, and as others had said, it boils down to preference. In a way, Topre can be cheaper than Cherry KB's in the long run......all these GB's and whatnot involve Cherry keyboards, very little on Topre. I'm sure most of you guys here know how financially draining it can be to hang out in the GB and Classified sections.....hence, my avoidance of these. So far, I've been sucked into the Miami GB, mentally wanking off to the Bumblebee GB......it never ends over there it seems. Some of the guys in the local forums have said that buying Topre is cheaper in the long run as you're not involved in these GB's......now, I kind of agree with what they'd said. Only snag is......I have >10 mechanical KB's with Cherry switches!

Does that local forum happen to be vr-zone?

[Polymer]

See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.

Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.

Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both.  I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....

What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day?  Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.

[daerid]

^ +1.  Yeah, I have to agree.  OCD is a serious mental illness.  You are trivializing it, and you're probably offending anybody who really suffers from it, or has a family member who suffers from it.

This **** bothers me. OP obviously didn't intend to self-diagnose OCD or offend anybody with OCD by trivializing it or whatever. He was using an exaggeration to convey a concept, probably in an attempt at mild humor.

It's really irritating when the PC brigade rides in shouting "watch what you say, you might offend someone!". The vast majority of the time, nobody's intending to offend anybody. So can we please just give people the benefit of the doubt and lighten up?

[fuzzybaffy]

See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.

Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.

Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both.  I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....

What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day?  Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.

Right. I knew you have and use both switches. It was just that, at the end of the post, you said if it came down to just one switch, you would pick Cherry over Topre, so that's why I said I thought you liked Cherry more overall. Either way, I don't have a problem with your preference. I was just saying I wish people would post more like you, giving objective opinions as to why one might be better than another. Instead of going, "oh, Topres are just over-priced rubberdomes! Enjoy getting ripped off!" Comments like that are just eye-roll inducing.

[Danule]

See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.

Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.

Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both.  I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....

What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day?  Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.

What game you playing? when was the last time you tried topre for playing?  I felt the same way for a while but I tried playing again on a topre and it was much better now that I am used to the switch.  I still think cherry is slightly better for gaming but its not that much better.  I play SC2 and FPS games.

[Polymer]

Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both.  I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....

What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day?  Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.

What game you playing? when was the last time you tried topre for playing?  I felt the same way for a while but I tried playing again on a topre and it was much better now that I am used to the switch.  I still think cherry is slightly better for gaming but its not that much better.  I play SC2 and FPS games.

RTS and DOTA type games...

It isn't that Topre can't be used for gaming...but there is something I don't like about it..It could be the feel or the fact that I probably hit some keys harder than I should when gaming....or maybe I should say, I far far prefer Cherry when it comes to gaming...At least with a uniform Topre, I can use one passably to play with if I need to...With variable Topre...Nope..I absolutely HATE it..and hate is a pretty strong word but I absolutely hate variable for gaming. 

Again, this is just my personal preferences.  There are some screenshots where some pros are using Topre so obviously it can be used at a very high level of game play.  There are also others on here that like using Topre for gaming...

For me, it just doesn't feel right...Just as I enjoy Topre more for typing (a lot more really)...I enjoy Cherry a LOT more for gaming...

So I don't prefer one type of switch over the other...I just know if I had to pick one, I could be perfectly happy typing on Cherry..I'm not sure I could say the same for gaming on Topre..

[Shuki]

There are some screenshots where some pros are using Topre so obviously it can be used at a very high level of game play.

http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/b/442230134?t=42m43s

IG zhou (international 2 champion) looks to be using one. As you say its purely preference, there is no real difference in a keyboard which is good for typing and one which is good for gaming.

[PadawanGeek]

I've gamed (usually play UT3 and Quake 3 Arena) with a few Cherry boards I have (Red, Black, Brown, Blue and Green) as well as on my Topre KB's, I find myself enjoying the game regardless of which KB I'm using. I find myself doing about as well whichever switch type I use. I don't know about other types of game as I'm mainly an FPS or 3PS gamer, and Topre's just fine for playing such fast paced games.

[duncan]

Second, I was pointing to the myth that the HHKB has been made for programmers. It's just a myth. You want to argue that there are more programmers out there that would prefer a keyboard without the arrow keys? Seriously?

I am a programmer and yes I need to navigate using arrows and I am going to tell you that having the arrow navigation available in the body of the keys by just dropping my right pinky onto the function key of my much loved HHKB is not just 'as good as' but far superior to the arrow cluster.

I am not going to claim I am in the majority but that would be impossible because so few programmers have ever performed the experiment. Like you, they **know** without finding out (and who can blame them, $300 to perform an experiment is no light matter).

From the many hundreds of programmers I have worked with the majority are totally happy (nowadays) with rubber domes that they smash like the keyboard insulted their mother. If their desk isn't shaking under the blows they don't feel like they are really working. So much better if the surrounding desks are shaking too.

With that, in my personal experience, as the actual majority I don't think that trying to divide the minority who give the slightest thought to their keyboard is really of much value.

Minorities and majorities are not really useful consideration here. It all comes down to a population of one, you, as to what you do and don't like. Who cares if two people or a million people agree with you. Make yourself happy and leave other people to be happy with their choice unless their choice somehow affects you.

[terran5992]

Topres have that really unique feel when you press a key. Its unlike any other cherry keyboard. To really appreciate topre keys, you have to first try cherry

[Jack]

Topres won't automagically make my typing perfect, but they will make me do it right, and reward good technique. They're quite loving when handled well. Sometimes, when I've been using Topres too long and start to take them for granted, I pull out the MX Blacks. Within the next 24 hours or so, I remember why I love Topres.

Of course, all of this only applies until I get my hands on a Model M SSK.

In industrial grey.

[peter79]

I bought Filco Majestouch AI blue switch as my first mechanical keyboard. I previous keyboard is Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 7000.
Before I bought the blue switch, I tried the brown and red switch. For me the blue switch is very loud and unique sound, so it's more like a true mechanical keyboard sound.

Then I saw Realforce keyboard with Topre switches. It is a membran keyboard with spring, so it's not truely a mechanical keyboard, but why is more expensive?
Then I told myself to not even think about buying Realforce keyboard, the design is not as good looking as Filco and it's difficult to find a replacement keycaps.

But when I google for the best price of Realforce 104, I found this:
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113_1297&products_id=18672

It's not much different in price with Filco, so I ask my cousin to get it for me in Australia.

Then I started to use 104UB for 2 days, it's very stable when I type with this keyboard, the cherry mx swith feels wobble when i press the keycaps.
The reason for these is the connection between the switches and the keycaps.
Topre switches has a huge round plastic, so when I connect the keycaps to the switches, the secures most part of the keycaps.
While cherry mx switches has a + shape, not big as the round topre switches. When I connect the switches with the keycaps, only the + part connect to the keycaps.
Which is only the center of the keycaps secures with the switches, that think makes cherry mx switches not as sturdy as topre switches.

[scruffles]

Maybe I can put words on the "Topre feel":

For those of you who have once used a real piano (one made of wood) or a high quality electronic musical keyboard, there is a similarity in my opinion with the Topre switches.

In a real piano, the key is at the end of a lever, and the lever pushes a hammer, which strikes a string or group of strings.

The device has some inertia. When you start pushing the key, you push the key+lever+hammer group. You feel the weight of all these parts. Once the group is set in motion, the pressure on your finger is much lower as the parts continue on their way until they strike the string(s), at which point the hammer bounces back and sends the pressure back on the key. This helps quickly reset the mechanism in its initial position, ready to play another note.

The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.

This is by far the best description of the "topre feel" that I've come across. I say this as someone who's played the piano my whole life. 

 The initial resistance, followed by the smooth travel really does closely mimic the feel of a piano key. It may be why I've come to strongly prefer topres.

In addition, the fact that the key actuates before bottoming out is also similar to a piano's action. The hammer is actually released at the strings well before the key is fully depressed. This is part of the mechanism that allows you to use a softer touch on the keys to achieve a dynamic range (different loudness) when you play.

And for those who say you always bottom out on topres, I actually find that not to be the case. True, when I'm typing English at speed, I generally do bottom out. But, when I'm typing key commands or chords, or doing fast repetition of a single key, I'll often use a lighter touch and not bottom out. I do this without thinking about it, and only notice if I pay attention to it.

[tbc]

the HHKB arrows are complete bull**** and is just linux/unix elitism (you really think windows/mac users are bad?  you haven't seen anything yet).

now, if the arrow keys were 'ijkl' instead, NOW we would be talking.

better yet, have the option to turn the rshift into a FN key, and small handed users everywhere would cheer for years on end.

if i was redesigning the keyboard for myself, I'd turn the loptions key into another func key and have a second arrow block on 'esdf'(like the minila).  although, i honestly can't take knocks off a keyboard not including this (the minila is a laptop users' dream)




*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro - no, the stereotypical image of an apple mac user is NOT a programmer

[Michael]

the HHKB arrows are complete bull**** and is just linux/unix elitism (you really think windows/mac users are bad?  you haven't seen anything yet).

now, if the arrow keys were 'ijkl' instead, NOW we would be talking.

better yet, have the option to turn the rshift into a FN key, and small handed users everywhere would cheer for years on end.

if i was redesigning the keyboard for myself, I'd turn the loptions key into another func key and have a second arrow block on 'esdf'(like the minila).  although, i honestly can't take knocks off a keyboard not including this (the minila is a laptop users' dream)




*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro - no, the stereotypical image of an apple mac user is NOT a programmer

Cool story.

[Danule]

Maybe I can put words on the "Topre feel":

For those of you who have once used a real piano (one made of wood) or a high quality electronic musical keyboard, there is a similarity in my opinion with the Topre switches.

In a real piano, the key is at the end of a lever, and the lever pushes a hammer, which strikes a string or group of strings.

The device has some inertia. When you start pushing the key, you push the key+lever+hammer group. You feel the weight of all these parts. Once the group is set in motion, the pressure on your finger is much lower as the parts continue on their way until they strike the string(s), at which point the hammer bounces back and sends the pressure back on the key. This helps quickly reset the mechanism in its initial position, ready to play another note.

The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.

This is by far the best description of the "topre feel" that I've come across. I say this as someone who's played the piano my whole life. 

 The initial resistance, followed by the smooth travel really does closely mimic the feel of a piano key. It may be why I've come to strongly prefer topres.

In addition, the fact that the key actuates before bottoming out is also similar to a piano's action. The hammer is actually released at the strings well before the key is fully depressed. This is part of the mechanism that allows you to use a softer touch on the keys to achieve a dynamic range (different loudness) when you play.

And for those who say you always bottom out on topres, I actually find that not to be the case. True, when I'm typing English at speed, I generally do bottom out. But, when I'm typing key commands or chords, or doing fast repetition of a single key, I'll often use a lighter touch and not bottom out. I do this without thinking about it, and only notice if I pay attention to it.

the feel is also similar to a typewriter i find

[Polymer]

now, if the arrow keys were 'ijkl' instead, NOW we would be talking.

better yet, have the option to turn the rshift into a FN key, and small handed users everywhere would cheer for years on end.

I agree with you on the IJKL thing...I think that too...I have mine so one of the FN keys is on the left side so that would be a bit better...

But R-Shift into FN is stupid...seriously I have no idea how people learn to shift with just one side or the other but it is really silly..

And for those who say you always bottom out on topres, I actually find that not to be the case. True, when I'm typing English at speed, I generally do bottom out. But, when I'm typing key commands or chords, or doing fast repetition of a single key, I'll often use a lighter touch and not bottom out. I do this without thinking about it, and only notice if I pay attention to it.

No offense but that is pretty meaningless...so your normal typing you bottom out but when you do repetitive where you haven't even let the dome fully pop back up...yes it is easier not to bottom..but so what?  That is like saying..yes, I can type at 15 WPM and not bottom out on Topre...*shrug*

I think my point in mentioning the bottoming out is you see it on here (although not so much anymore) about some ideal way to type and how you shouldn't bottom and then I see silly claims about not bottoming out with Topre...all I've said is I'd like to see that with speed...not on something like 30g but with 45/55g Topre..I want to see someone type reasonably fast without bottoming...not that it really matters..and it shouldn't matter...but some of the things I see on here I just have to laugh..

[tbc]

about the right shift thing, it happens when you have to do alot of spot editting for programming in non-unix/linux environments(which are optimized for keyboard only usage).

the cost of moving my right hand off of the mouse to maintain typing style is VERY high just to use a right shift when i can reach everything up to '6yhn' no problem.  i can reach further for the very few times i need to; for some reason, everything past my left hand shift reach just very rarely has errors (i can't remember a single time to be honest).

I have honestly never really had to use right shift unless i was eating a chicken wing or something.

[spiceBar]

*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro...

And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.

[daerid]

And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.

No actually, he's not.

OSX is built on top of Darwin, which is built on top of NeXTSTEP and BSD. Both of which are Unix derivatives (and NeXTSTEP itself borrows heavily from BSD).

[mauri]

[spiceBar]

And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.

No actually, he's not.

OSX is built on top of Darwin, which is built on top of NeXTSTEP and BSD. Both of which are Unix derivatives (and NeXTSTEP itself borrows heavily from BSD).

He is wrong. OS X is indeed built on top of Darwin, which is a BSD derivative kernel, but which has never been a Linux distro. BSD predates Linux by a decade or two, and Linux is not based on BSD either.

The link between Mac OS X (BSD) and Linux is that they are both based on a Unix-like core. Like saying that they have a common ancestor, but they are not in the same branch.

But please, Mac OS X is definitely not based on a Linux distro.

[Michael]

Cool story. Back on topic.

[nubbinator]

*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro...

And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.

No actually, he's not.

OSX is built on top of Darwin, which is built on top of NeXTSTEP and BSD. Both of which are Unix derivatives (and NeXTSTEP itself borrows heavily from BSD).

He is wrong. OS X is indeed built on top of Darwin, which is a BSD derivative kernel, but which has never been a Linux distro. BSD predates Linux by a decade or two, and Linux is not based on BSD either.

The link between Mac OS X (BSD) and Linux is that they are both based on a Unix-like core. Like saying that they have a common ancestor, but they are not in the same branch.

But please, Mac OS X is definitely not based on a Linux distro.

You're still wrong.  You're the only one saying Linux.  The person you're claiming is wrong has said Unix from the very beginning and BSD is a branch/distro of Unix.

Now let's get back on topic about why some people feel Topre is the second coming of christ and all should worship at the altar of Topre and how others feel uninspired or unimpressed by Topre.

Sometimes I feel like talking about Topre is like talking about religion.  No one will ever agree and it always leads to arguments.

[spiceBar]

Yes, I apologize.

I have misread Unix as Linux for some reason. Maybe because I have just spent several hours editing graphics. OK, that's not an excuse.

Sorry about this.

[daerid]

n/t

[PepperPanda]

If you have a problem with the HHKB layout just put a teensy in it and use hasu's firmware code.

Anyway get back on topic about why I should spend all my money on Topre.

[o2dazone]

It's not "all your money" is it? If it is, you probably shouldn't be buying expensive keyboards. I've spent twice the price of an HHKB on a graphics card, something I use a few times a week. The HHKB I use almost every day at work, for 8 hours a day.

Topre switches definitely lack the "Wow" factor compared to most Cherry boards. But after trying every plate-mounted ergoclear lubed stickered LED lit Cherry board with an acrylic or aluminum + counter-weighted case, I just want something rigid, and uniform. HHKB and Realforce delivers that.

[keymaster]

I've had the RealForce 103UB 55g for a few days now and I'm really loving it. I didn't like the lighter 45g weight found on the HHKB, so it's worthy to note how much 10g of weight will have on feel.

55g Topre switches, in terms of feel, have no weakness (that I can find). The bottom-out feels just right -- it's very cushy. The only weakness Topre switches have are the rattling noise on the upstroke. I'm most likely going to do the dental floss mod just as many others have done so already.

I finally understand all the hype behind Topre keyboards. In my opinion, the hype is mostly justified.