Help me find the right 60% board

[ITzNybble]

Hey All,


I have recently used a TKL which was new for me since I have only used full size boards my entire life. After using the TKL for about a month I absolutely love the small form factor. This got me thinking about all the wonderful Pokers, Pokers II's GH60's, etc and I want to break into the 60% genre for my next board maybe around Christmas (my birthday). So I need some advice, I would like to use the board for work if at all possible and was wondering if any software engineers have and say on whether or not having dedicated arrow keys is a must. I use the arrow keys currently but I am not sure how hard it would be to readjust to a function layer arrow key.


I would just like opinions from anyone who loves their 60% board.


Thank you,

[mr. rampage]

I'm a software engineer and I recently purchased a Poker II for work. I typically use Vi, so arrow keys aren't necessary for me. However, whenever I have to use software that doesn't support Vi commands, I do stumble a bit.

The biggest gripe I have with the Poker II is that I wish the FN key and the WIN key were switched. The FN key is on the right side where the majority of the FN commands are, whereas the the majority of the WIN key binds are on the left. It would be more ergonomic if they were switched. Otherwise, it is a solid, solid keyboard. If you can wait, though, I hear a lot of great things about the GH60. I wish I was able to get into the group buy for that one.

[edit] I forgot to mention, the "Enjoy Your Feeling" on the spacebar is pretty hideous.

[ITzNybble]

I'm a software engineer and I recently purchased a Poker II for work. I typically use Vi, so arrow keys aren't necessary for me. However, whenever I have to use software that doesn't support Vi commands, I do stumble a bit.

The biggest gripe I have with the Poker II is that I wish the FN key and the WIN key were switched. The FN key is on the right side where the majority of the FN commands are, whereas the the majority of the WIN key binds are on the left. It would be more ergonomic if they were switched. Otherwise, it is a solid, solid keyboard. If you can wait, though, I hear a lot of great things about the GH60. I wish I was able to get into the group buy for that one.

Thanks for the input, I thought the Poker II was fully programmable? couldn't you just program the Fn and WIn keys to be opposite?

[mr. rampage]

Thanks for the input, I thought the Poker II was fully programmable? couldn't you just program the Fn and WIn keys to be opposite?

I thought it was as well when I bought it, but you can't reprogram the FN key or Win keys. When you program a key, you have to press the PN button and the trigger key together in order to run the macro.

[do_Og@n]

@ Mr. Rampage - You can play around with the switches on the bottom of the board to change the Winkey around. I haven't done it myself but I'm sure if you look around you will find the right setting for you.

@ITzNybble - If you are going to get a 60% board I would highly suggest the Poker 2. The modifier keys are easier to get used to than the 1st Poker and you will find more keycap sets available for it in comparison to the Pure keyboard. Of course if you can find yourself a GH60 PCB I would suggest that. Only because you could program it however you want.

Good Luck with your decision!

[Obakemono]

Just got myself a Poker II today.

In the Poker II you have the arrow keys on the wasd cluster so feels pretty natural if you have played some fps games.

[ITzNybble]

Just got myself a Poker II today.

In the Poker II you have the arrow keys on the wasd cluster so feels pretty natural if you have played some fps games.

I do like that the arrow keys are on WASD, been playing more FPS's lately. If I pick up a Poker II I will for sure be getting either an acrylic or metal base at some point.

So the Poker II > Poker I which are all > than the Race, Pure ?

[mr. rampage]

Not to make your decision more difficult, but this could also be a contender... at least if you're going to be using it for programming. It's got a nice small form factor it's TKL.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43054.0

I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's experience with the Choco Mini.

[Hypersphere]

In the sub-TKL category, I have tried the following boards. My brief comments are listed with each one:

Keycool 84: 75% format. No dedicated num pad (but embedded one works in linux and windows but not Mac), has dedicated arrow and F-keys. Looks and feels cheap, but has a good typing feel. Mostly standard layout in main typing area except 1.75x right shift, which is big enough not to miss.

Leopold FC660M: 60%-plus format. No dedicated num pad or F-keys. Has dedicated arrow keys as well as Insert and Delete keys. Solid, good-looking board. Mostly standard layout in main typing area except 2.25x right shift. Also has non-standard spacing of mounting stems in spacebar.

Poker II: 60% format. No dedicated num pad, F-keys, or arrow keys, but everything is in the Fn layer. Standard layout making touch typing and keycap replacement easy. Reasonably solid. Very popular board. I find it easier to adjust to using arrow keys in Fn layer than to type on a non-standard layout.

Tex Beetle: 60% format, but includes arrow keys. However, this is achieved by reducing the right shift to only 1.00x and slightly altering the staggering on the z-row. Beautiful and elegant with top-notch build quality. However, I find typing difficult, because I use the right shift much more than the left shift, and I cannot get accustomed to the tiny right shift key.

[ITzNybble]

Also any new on the release of the Ducky Mini? To add another one on the list


Thank you everyone so far for the input.

[Hypersphere]

Not to make your decision more difficult, but this could also be a contender... at least if you're going to be using it for programming. It's got a nice small form factor it's TKL.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43054.0

I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's experience with the Choco Mini.

Based on posts and reviews, I went with the Keycool 84 instead of the Choc Mini (firmware and other issues) or Race (too many non-standard keycaps).

[Puddsy]

I'm gonna throw a vote in for the Filco miniLA. I love mine, and it's ended up replacing my QFR as a daily driver. I only really swap it out for a few specific games now. Once you've got the layout down, you're golden.

[ITzNybble]

The only thing with the miniLA is the keys are hard to replace if I remember correctly?

[Obakemono]

On those with dedicated arrows i find the position of the right shift disturbing :s

[Puddsy]

The only thing with the miniLA is the keys are hard to replace if I remember correctly?

The layout is odd, and you'll never get a replacement spacebar, but the keycaps that come with it don't suck like my other Filcos. I would even go as far to say that I like them.

[ITzNybble]

I just am really looking into acquiring a miami or Hyper set so I am really leaning towards a Poker II at this point, just so much community customization already there.

[spiceBar]

As a software engineer, my opinion is that you CANNOT do without the dedicated arrow keys. While not every programmer would agree, you will however find in this forum people working on software who tried to use a HHKB for a while and could not get used to it (the HHKB has no dedicated arrow keys, they are in a diamond shape cluster on P L ' . and you must press them while holding your pinky on a small Fn key).

I have found that not having dedicated Home End PgUp PgDn keys is not a deal breaker. It slows you down a little, but you will adapt after a while.

I have not used a Poker myself, but I believe that if you switch it to "arrow keys mode" (in this mode the right Shift-Win-Menu-Ctrl cluster acts as the arrows), the board may be quite useable for programming. The reason I believe it is that most of the time I'm using the left Shift and Ctrl, so I would not miss the right ones too much.

At this time I'm using a KBT Pure Pro that has dedicated arrow keys. It's a 60% board, and so the right Shift and Ctrl keys are smaller than normal. As I said above, I do not use them much. The Pure Pro being programmable, I'm using these keys to do Home and End, and it's very useful.

Here is the Pure Pro:




I'm currently waiting for my Leopold FC660C to arrive, and it also has dedicated arrow keys in a slightly wider than 60% layout. The right Shift and Ctrl have not been sacrificed on this one, so it may end up being better for most people.

Here is the FC660C (also exists as a less expensive version with Cherry MX switches):

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,compact&pid=fc660c


Finally, I would add that a TenKeyLess or 60% format is good for programming. With a full keyboard, the mouse is too far away, and it is really annoying. This is especially obvious when you have worked for a while on a 60% or TKL and you go back to a full board: painful. Even going from a 60% to a TKL feels like downgrading!

PS: if someone tries to hijack this thread and suggests an "Ergodox" thing, please just ignore him. He is not a bad guy and we are currently seeking help and a treatment for him.

[ITzNybble]

Hmm interesting.....Worse case scenerio is if I dont like it I will just use my full size at work. Just somedays the blue clickiness gets to me even though I love it. maybe the poker II would be better at home for gaming, nothing crazy just LoL and BF3 - 4.

[Obakemono]

Hmm interesting.....Worse case scenerio is if I dont like it I will just use my full size at work. Just somedays the blue clickiness gets to me even though I love it. maybe the poker II would be better at home for gaming, nothing crazy just LoL and BF3 - 4.

Or worst case scenario, if you don't like it, just sell or trade for another, a pure pro for example.

[ITzNybble]

Hmm interesting.....Worse case scenerio is if I dont like it I will just use my full size at work. Just somedays the blue clickiness gets to me even though I love it. maybe the poker II would be better at home for gaming, nothing crazy just LoL and BF3 - 4.

Or worst case scenario, if you don't like it, just sell or trade for another, a pure pro for example.

Very true...hmmm....decisions....

[ITzNybble]

Okay so I think I am now down to a Poker II or a GH60. Question is how much will a GH60 costs me. without a case or keycaps in the Poker layout though? ~100 is what I was reading but not sure.

[ITzNybble]

Okay so I worked out the math on my ideal GH60 (if I ordered it and the key caps) which I didn't



GH60 Costs
---------------
CASE - $45 - Acrylic case
PCB - $28 - pre-soldered
PLATE- $16
SWITCHES - ~$60 (blues or browns)
COSTAR STABS - $7
KEYCAPS - Miami - $75 or HYPER (no price yet?) Alpha + Mods
USB CABLE - Own many basic cables
------------------------------------------------
TOTAL - ~$231 DIY Switches. PCB DONE


So it would be more BUT I get a nice set of Key caps, Nice case, and I get to build my own board which is something I really want to do. Now to discuss prices with the wife and see if that is an acceptable Birthday present if not Poker II with a nice case and maybe key caps i guess would do

[esoomenona]

Does it need to be MX? Around that price, you could move on into Topre with a HHKB.

[ITzNybble]

Does it need to be MX? Around that price, you could move on into Topre with a HHKB.

Topre have never really interested me to much, not sure why. For that price though I would like to be able to build (put  it together) myself. I have been watching whitefiredragon's YouTube videos and it has really got me in the mood to build something.

[do_Og@n]

GH60 Costs
---------------
CASE - $45 - Acrylic case
PCB - $28 - pre-soldered
PLATE- $16
SWITCHES - ~$60 (blues or browns)
COSTAR STABS - $7
KEYCAPS - Miami - $75 or HYPER (no price yet?) Alpha + Mods
USB CABLE - Own many basic cables
------------------------------------------------
TOTAL - ~$231 DIY Switches. PCB DONE

You've got the right idea. If I were you I would buy the Poker 2 before going for the GH60. That way you can decide if you really want a 60% keyboard without having to spend over $200. You can always sell the Poker 2 for close to what you paid for it.

[spiceBar]

Does it need to be MX? Around that price, you could move on into Topre with a HHKB.

Topre have never really interested me to much, not sure why. For that price though I would like to be able to build (put  it together) myself. I have been watching whitefiredragon's YouTube videos and it has really got me in the mood to build something.

The problem with HHKB is not the Topre switches. They are great. The problem is NO ARROWS. If I were you I wouldn't bet on such a choice.

[ITzNybble]

the thing is personally I do not mind having the arrows on a function layer as long as they are they to use I will train myself to use them no problem

[SpAmRaY]

Okay so I worked out the math on my ideal GH60 (if I ordered it and the key caps) which I didn't



GH60 Costs
---------------
CASE - $45 - Acrylic case
PCB - $28 - pre-soldered
PLATE- $16
SWITCHES - ~$60 (blues or browns)
COSTAR STABS - $7
KEYCAPS - Miami - $75 or HYPER (no price yet?) Alpha + Mods
USB CABLE - Own many basic cables
------------------------------------------------
TOTAL - ~$231 DIY Switches. PCB DONE


So it would be more BUT I get a nice set of Key caps, Nice case, and I get to build my own board which is something I really want to do. Now to discuss prices with the wife and see if that is an acceptable Birthday present if not Poker II with a nice case and maybe key caps i guess would do

The thing is if you get a Poker 2 now and get a case and/or key caps you could always get a GH60 later from the classifieds and use the same case and keycaps with it.

Does it need to be MX? Around that price, you could move on into Topre with a HHKB.

I never really considered this but for what I'll have in my GH60 + case + keycaps I could easily have purchased a HHKB 

[esoomenona]

And the arrows on the HHKB are very intuitive to use.

[ITzNybble]

yea but for the same cost I could get a GH60 with a custom key set and custom case not sure if owning a HHKB is worth forfeiting those and with a Poker II I could still get either a case or key set for the same price roughly. Not hating on the HHKB by any means

[Hypersphere]

The HHKB Pro 2 is an elegant and beautiful study in efficient keyboard minimalism, and I often wish I had started out using one. However, the standard layout is too ingrained in my mind and fingers to adapt to the differences in the HHKB Pro 2, no matter how much sense they make. If I did start using the HHDB Pro 2, I would have to install 3 of them to cover my different work locations (although it is eminently portable, I would not want to have to carry it with me all the time), and this would be prohibitively expensive.

[esoomenona]

I've solved that by adjusting layouts of other keyboards to match that of the HHKB, resulting in no need to move it around.

[Hypersphere]

I've solved that by adjusting layouts of other keyboards to match that of the HHKB, resulting in no need to move it around.

Interesting solution. I mostly use Macs; maybe I could use KeyReMap4MacBook to change the layouts for the Macs, AutoHotKey for Win, and something else for Linux. Even so, I think my kinesthetic memory for the standard layout is too hardwired in my brain.

[Binge]

Poker 2 has been great,

660C/660M are fine leopold solutions,

and I customized a korean keyboard, 2TU, to suit my preferences.

I'd say in terms of modern 60% boards the poker 2 and pure pro are a great deal for the money, but the 660C/M have a more comfortable design for me than the pure pro.

[sth]

happy hacking... everything else is just an approximation.

[Hypersphere]

I'm still vacillating over dedicated arrow keys vs putting them in the Fn layer. I've been experimenting through my workday by switching among my IBM SSK, Poker II, Keycool 84, and Leopold FC660M.

Whereas I can do everything with the Leopold and Keycool that I do with the IBM, when I am using the Poker II, I am finding it cumbersome to navigate in documents or molecular modeling programs without dedicated arrow keys. For straight typing that does not involve any navigation or complicated editing, the Poker II is fine, but for even slightly more complex work, I prefer the Leopold, Keycool, or the IBM.

Between the Keycool and Leopold, I prefer the look and build quality of the Leopold. I also do not need dedicated F-keys, so again the Leopold wins.

The key action does not feel as even or precise across the board with the Leopold as it does with the IBM, and so between these two, I am more comfortable typing on the IBM.

If I had to leave the IBM out of the equation and consider only the Poker II, Keycool 84, and Leopold FC660M, although each board has its strengths, the main thing is getting the work done, in which case the Leopold wins. The Leopold is not strictly a 60% board -- it adds a little over 1.5x key units to the width of the board in order to accommodate the arrow cluster without unduly squeezing the right shift key or changing the staggering of the z-row. Attempting to include dedicated arrow keys within a 60% format necessarily results in a non-standard layout, and putting the arrow keys in the Fn layer adds a layer of complexity to relatively common keyboarding tasks.
 

[esoomenona]

The placement of the arrows on a Poker was pathetic, in my opinion. Because if this, I was of the belief that I would never be able to use a 60% board. Until the HHKB.

[Hypersphere]

I'm a software engineer and I recently purchased a Poker II for work. I typically use Vi, so arrow keys aren't necessary for me. However, whenever I have to use software that doesn't support Vi commands, I do stumble a bit.

The biggest gripe I have with the Poker II is that I wish the FN key and the WIN key were switched. The FN key is on the right side where the majority of the FN commands are, whereas the the majority of the WIN key binds are on the left. It would be more ergonomic if they were switched. Otherwise, it is a solid, solid keyboard. If you can wait, though, I hear a lot of great things about the GH60. I wish I was able to get into the group buy for that one.

[edit] I forgot to mention, the "Enjoy Your Feeling" on the spacebar is pretty hideous.

I have a similar issue with the Leopold FC660M. I would like to be able to exchange the positions of the Fn key with the right Control key.

[spiceBar]

Attempting to include dedicated arrow keys within a 60% format necessarily results in a non-standard layout, and putting the arrow keys in the Fn layer adds a layer of complexity to relatively common keyboarding tasks.

While it looks impossible on the surface, I'm going to show you that it is not in a few days. I have created such a layout:
- Standard PC typewriter cluster
- Includes an arrow cluster accessible directly, and always accessible (it's not a Poker-like solution)
- All the other missing keys accessible through a Fn layer
- It will be easy to find replacement keycaps for this layout, because they are already out there by the millions

By "standard PC typewriter cluster". I mean this:



Yes, you can do all of the above with just this universally standard layout.

Now... Think about it...