Long-time lurker

[ijprest]

Hi,

I'm a long-time lurker who has finally decided to take the plunge into mechanical & custom keyboards (got a couple on order).

I'm a software developer by trade... meaning a lot of typing, and I'm *very* picky about keyboard layout. 

Since nobody makes *exactly* what I'm looking for (standard layout, but split like MS Ergo 4000... and with mechanical keys and better build quality), I've been absorbing as much information about building custom keyboards as I can find.  I haven't done much hardware stuff (soldering, etc.) in the last 15 years, though, so it's definitely going to be a learning process.

[eth0s]

Hmm, maybe you are a candidate for the ergodox.  You can always hire another GH'er to put it together for you.

Welcome to GH.

[ijprest]

I've got an ErgoDox on order at MassDrop... I figure it'll give me some practice at the soldering and stuff, and I can play around with tweaking firmwares for the controller.

And maybe the weird columnar layout will grow on me.  Though having spent 25 years with a normal layout, I'm not hopeful. 

[microsoft windows]

WELCOME TO GEEK HACK

[Thimplum]

And maybe the weird columnar layout will grow on me.  Though having spent 25 years with a normal layout, I'm not hopeful. 

I've heard stories of people who struggle with it for months, and an equal number of stories where it only takes a week or two to get used to. YMMV

[kaltar]

I think anyone can get used to ANY layout, given time and not going back to another layout. It's really important to keep your WPM in your current layout and practice on a new layout until you match it. And the wpm test should include the symbols you use often, AND, the common operations with modifiers you use daily.

The simpler the keymap layout, the faster you will learn. (In one year, anyone can use a stenotype and make over 150WPM.)

The main Idea is keep practicing the new layout until it becomes a second nature... and no cheating using old habits: create new ones.

[ijprest]

24 years of habit is hard to break, but yeah, I'm sure given enough time using it exclusively I could get used to it.  I'd need two for that, though (for home & office).  And I'm not sure I've the motivation to do it, since my productivity with a regular layout is pretty good.  (It took me a couple years to get over MS putting the '6' key on the wrong side of all their split keyboards.)

For programming, a better metric is probably "random keystrokes per minute", because symbols and short identifiers are often more prevalent than fully-formed words and sentences.  On a standard 104-key keyboard, the only key I don't use daily is Scroll-Lock.  And holding 2 or 3 modifiers at a time is fairly common.

My goal with the ErgoDox is really to get a feel for what goes into building a custom keyboard... and then I can set about creating my own. 

[kaltar]

Go ahead with Ergodox. As a programmer, I'm dying to get one, but I first must enjoy my kinesis before getting another keyboard.
Im sure you will configure it to your liking. The only things you will want to add are the height and maybe wrist rests.

[norbauer]

Hi,

I'm a software developer by trade... meaning a lot of typing, and I'm *very* picky about keyboard layout. 

I'm a developer too and would be interested to hear your thoughts with respect to mech keyboards and coding.

I have been vacillating between Cherry MX Red and MX Brown switches for the past couple of weeks. I ultimately decided in favor of reds because I feel like I type more quickly and fluidly with them, although I make slightly more errors, I think. I find that when using Visual Studio, I actually prefer the browns for their tactile feedback, which gives me a slightly lower error rate. As you know, when coding, you can't really use spell check and auto-correct—every key has to be the one you meant—so just getting out the rough shape of the words isn't enough, as with other forms of regular-language text entry.

But I realized switching between two keyboards contextually would be ridiculous. So I decided in favor of the reds all the time, only because I find that I'm so keen to have the tactile pleasure of banging stuff out on my bouncy red board that I am actually more likely to sit down and respond to emails, or to make forum posts like this. And I'm hoping with getting used to the reds (I started out using browns for a few weeks and had more practice with that board), my error rate will simply go down over time.

Have you encountered any other keyboard considerations or optimizations specific to coding?

[ijprest]

I find my efficiency is less about WPM, and more about knowing how to do everything with the KB without thinking about it... I know where every key on the keyboard is without looking at it (even those that might require me to reposition my hands).  This is why I'm so sensitive to even minor layout changes.

For the last 15 years I've been using MS "Ergo" KBs almost exclusively, but I've long wanted a higher-quality switch (I don't like the way the membranes give you tactile feedback before actually registering the keypress).  I really loved the old IBM Model M's when I used them in school 20 years ago.

I haven't tried a red/black as a daily driver, but I've typed on a few in store displays (and I sprung for the WASD switch sampler pack), and I find that I vastly prefer the tactile feedback.  In the Cherry lineup, I'm torn between blue/green & brown/clear. 

I've got a few KBs on order... WASD (blue), Realforce (Topre), and ErgoDox (clear).  When they become available, I intend to get a Unicomp 103-key and give buckling springs another try.

I'm sure it'll take me a while to pick a favorite...

[vun]

I've got an ErgoDox on order at MassDrop... I figure it'll give me some practice at the soldering and stuff, and I can play around with tweaking firmwares for the controller.

And maybe the weird columnar layout will grow on me.  Though having spent 25 years with a normal layout, I'm not hopeful. 

Eh, a lot of people, myself included, have come from years of using regular staggered qwerty, for me it took maybe a day or two to learn the basics of the edox, by the first week you should've figured out which regular keyboard tasks you struggle with and then alter your layout accordingly.

[ijprest]

Well, I just got my WASDv2 (blue), with a set of thick PBT caps.  I *love* the way it feels... (both the caps, and the typing action).

I'm slightly slower on artificial WPM tests: 61 WPM, vs. 69, WPM on my MS Ergo 4000... (I'm not the fastest typist in the world).  But I actually think that's pretty good, considering it's only been a couple hours, and I have to get used to a different hand/wrist position.  Also, I was typing the same text, so the 2nd run (my old KB) is probably artificially high by a few points.

Tomorrow I'm going to see if I can drive my colleagues crazy with all the clicking!

[norbauer]

Well, I just got my WASDv2 (blue), with a set of thick PBT caps.  I *love* the way it feels... (both the caps, and the typing action).

I'm slightly slower on artificial WPM tests: 61 WPM, vs. 69, WPM on my MS Ergo 4000... (I'm not the fastest typist in the world).  But I actually think that's pretty good, considering it's only been a couple hours, and I have to get used to a different hand/wrist position.  Also, I was typing the same text, so the 2nd run (my old KB) is probably artificially high by a few points.

Tomorrow I'm going to see if I can drive my colleagues crazy with all the clicking!

Congrats! I adore the thick PBTs too.

And, if your colleagues come marching to your office with pitchforks and torches, there is always the o-ring mod. The thick PBTs make an especially loud clack when bottoming out, and the o-rings dampen that significantly (though I ultimately preferred to leave them off myself, but then again I work from home).

[ijprest]

Well, I only sent one person away screaming, but whenever he comes by it's usually because he wants something, so no real loss.  A few others who sit close by threatened to make it disappear one evening, though, so I made sure to bring it home with me. 

I have a handful of o-rings that came in my WASD sampler pack, but I find they only help a little with the Cherry Blue's.  I don't tend to pound on the keys unless I'm angry at my compiler or something. 

Anyway, I just picked up my Topre from the post-office.  *Totally* different typing feel.  At first I was disappointed with it, but after a few minutes it started growing on me.  Since it's so much quieter than the blue's, I think I'll take this one to work next week, and save the clicky one for home.

[norbauer]

Well, I only sent one person away screaming, but whenever he comes by it's usually because he wants something, so no real loss.  A few others who sit close by threatened to make it disappear one evening, though, so I made sure to bring it home with me. 

In my experience, one of the greatest skills in life is to be able to drive away the right people (without seeming to do it intentionally, ideally).

Anyway, I just picked up my Topre from the post-office.  *Totally* different typing feel.  At first I was disappointed with it, but after a few minutes it started growing on me.  Since it's so much quieter than the blue's, I think I'll take this one to work next week, and save the clicky one for home.

I'm very curious about this. I'm about to give a Topre a whirl myself, though since I like MX reds I think going to have to shell out big time for one with (the very light) 30g switches, if I can even find one. Which weight switches did you get? Can you describe the difference more: what you liked and didn't at first, and what about it grew on you?

[ijprest]

I got the mixed-weight version.  I think the home-row keys are 30g, whereas the ESC key is 55g (and some of the other keys are 45g).  There's a noticeable difference between the two, now that I know it's there, but I honestly didn't notice until I went looking for it, and I don't think I would notice during everyday use.

What disappointed me was the very minimal tactile feedback (on the 30g keys, at least... it's more pronounced on ESC).  If you like Cherry Red's, this may not bother you.  It's *not* linear, but it doesn't have the solid bump of a Brown/Clear, or even the mushy bump of a standard rubber-dome.

What's been winning me over, however, is the smooth typing action.  I think the Cherry Blue's are more fun to *push*, but the Topre definitely a good keyboard for *typing*.  (I won't go on record yet as to which I prefer, yet, since they're very different experiences.)  The keycaps feel nice, and the typing sound is quiet, but pleasantly "solid" (unlike a rubber dome).

It's also very sturdily built, and there was a lot of attention paid to the details... unless my fingers are deceiving me there's a slight texture difference between the F/J and the other letters, in addition to the standard nub.

[norbauer]

I got the mixed-weight version.  I think the home-row keys are 30g, whereas the ESC key is 55g (and some of the other keys are 45g).  There's a noticeable difference between the two, now that I know it's there, but I honestly didn't notice until I went looking for it, and I don't think I would notice during everyday use.

What disappointed me was the very minimal tactile feedback (on the 30g keys, at least... it's more pronounced on ESC).  If you like Cherry Red's, this may not bother you.  It's *not* linear, but it doesn't have the solid bump of a Brown/Clear, or even the mushy bump of a standard rubber-dome.

What's been winning me over, however, is the smooth typing action.  I think the Cherry Blue's are more fun to *push*, but the Topre definitely a good keyboard for *typing*.  (I won't go on record yet as to which I prefer, yet, since they're very different experiences.)  The keycaps feel nice, and the typing sound is quiet, but pleasantly "solid" (unlike a rubber dome).

It's also very sturdily built, and there was a lot of attention paid to the details... unless my fingers are deceiving me there's a slight texture difference between the F/J and the other letters, in addition to the standard nub.

Wow. OK.  This is actually very helpful. I've got to say this sounds like just what I'm looking for. I'm somewhere in between reds and o-ring modded browns in my preference, and it sounds like the 30g Topre is a good bet for me, for all the reasons you mentioned. Thanks!