Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible

[spiceBar]

While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing.  `~ is missing.  I use these daily.  Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards.  You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

   Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! 

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

[Niomosy]

While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing.  `~ is missing.  I use these daily.  Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards.  You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

   Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! 

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|.  I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it.  On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it.  With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.

[spiceBar]

While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing.  `~ is missing.  I use these daily.  Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards.  You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

   Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! 

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|.  I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it.  On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it.  With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.

The idea is to have \ and | both on the Fn and the AltGr (right Alt) layer. This way you can type them with one hand. That's how I have done it using console-setup and xmodmap to simulate the layout on a standard keyboard.

It's funny that some people believe I could have posted a layout with some characters simply missing... Does my OP really look like I have spent only 5 minutes thinking about the design?

[Oobly]

Hi spiceBar, nice layout! Don't be discouraged by the naysayers!

I have a suggestion, however. How about shifting the arrow key cluster to the right, so you use Win, Menu, Ctrl and RShift as arrows, but you modify the firmware like hasu posted here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41685.0

So, the ctrl and shift keys act as modifiers if you hold them down, but arrow keys if they are pressed and released. Then you don't have to move any keys and you only lose Winkey and Menu.

[spiceBar]

Hi spiceBar, nice layout! Don't be discouraged by the naysayers!

I have a suggestion, however. How about shifting the arrow key cluster to the right, so you use Win, Menu, Ctrl and RShift as arrows, but you modify the firmware like hasu posted here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41685.0

So, the ctrl and shift keys act as modifiers if you hold them down, but arrow keys if they are pressed and released. Then you don't have to move any keys and you only lose Winkey and Menu.

Thank you Oobly!

I gave a shot at the idea, however the arrows are keys that we like to press and hold to autorepeat them, for example to navigate thru a long page of text.

So I think that arrows doubling as modifiers (or modifiers doubling as arrows) would not work.

[CPTBadAss]

Wish I had a standard 60% layout board so I could give this a go. I'll have to try it out when the GH60s ship.

[Niomosy]

While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing.  `~ is missing.  I use these daily.  Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards.  You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

   Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! 

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|.  I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it.  On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it.  With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.

The idea is to have \ and | both on the Fn and the AltGr (right Alt) layer. This way you can type them with one hand. That's how I have done it using console-setup and xmodmap to simulate the layout on a standard keyboard.

It's funny that some people believe I could have posted a layout with some characters simply missing... Does my OP really look like I have spent only 5 minutes thinking about the design?

It's not that, it's more pre-conceived notions of keyboard layout, possibly a lack of sleep and/or coffee, etc. doing it more than anything.  I'm seeing what you're talking about and realizing my brain saw what it wanted to see more than anything so the problem is on my side, not yours.  My apologies there.

The thing I would need to get used to in this layout would more be that I'm no longer using the shift key for the | symbol but another key.  Taking another look, wouldn't I be hitting three keys to get the pipe symbol?  It's normally a shift required on the \ key to begin with so in your layout, wouldn't I be hitting the Fn+Shift+\ in order to get the pipe symbol?  I may be exhausted after hitting the gym then coming back to a massive Unix vulnerabilities list to read and brain's not firing correct so correct me if I'm wrong.   

Muscle memory is one of those things people get reluctant to give up on.  It probably doesn't help that I'm a stubborn type at times

Like I said, I can see where the layout could work well.  I like the thought put into it.  I'm not positive it could work for me, but I'm just one guy.  Were I to have the money laying around to try it out, I certainly would.  Of course, if it's a programmable keyboard, remapping things is a cinch and if a layout just isn't working for me I can try another layout.

[Hypersphere]

I prefer:

Show Image

...based on your idea, though eliminating /? is just too severe. Didn't alter any keys other than making R-Shift's additional functionality through a function layer.

Only created it based on the thread, as I was playing around with creating something slightly larger than 60%...I think it works fairly well, and you can add the function layer for specific needs.

This:

Show Image

...is what I'd like made and produced for myself (which where my finger happens to R-Shift, this wouldn't affect the new size; imagine some people are the same way). My biggest reason against 60% is the elimination or strange alterations affecting the arrow keys, and 6-keys, which I use often (or in the case of this thread, eliminating the /? key and having no 6-key outside of layers. This would allow a smaller profile, while still maintaining TKL functionality. When I become rich enough, I'd like to make this custom for myself, and any others who want it.

Yes, your second design is similar to one that I have proposed (see below). Like you, I have added an extra column to maintain a nearly standard layout. The modifiers could be changed, perhaps via programming, firmware, or DIP switches. The Fn layer would be similar to that of the Leopold FC660C, except that it could be even more sparse, because Home, End, PgUp, and PbDn are already in the primary layer.

I think spiceBar also has some excellent ideas, and I look forward to seeing how his project goes.

[Polymer]

I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

[Niomosy]

I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key.  The \| key is now on a second layer.

[dadgh]

I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key.  The \| key is now on a second layer.

Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.

[Polymer]

I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key.  The \| key is now on a second layer.

I know where it is on the layout...I know the key is there but it isn't in the right spot..

Not even going into the | and stuff which will be really bad on a FN layer..

I like the general idea though..

[divito]

Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.

True story.

I know where it is on the layout...I know the key is there but it isn't in the right spot..

Not even going into the | and stuff which will be really bad on a FN layer..

I like the general idea though..

 

[spiceBar]

I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key.  The \| key is now on a second layer.

Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.

Who are you to speak in the name of Unix users?

I am one and I have no trouble using the layout. You did not even try it yourself.

[Dawidd]

How would one go about making a board like this? I love the layout

[spiceBar]

How would one go about making a board like this? I love the layout

Actually since then I have designed another layout that is, in my opinion, even better.

It is called SpaceFN:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

I currently use it all the time and it retains one of the major goal of using a totally standard alphabetic cluster. Check it out!

[Eszett]

Some affirm they don’t use the arrow keys much, for myself I use them more frequent than any other key. So it’s probably a matter of typing habits. It makes no sense argueing ideologically, since we all have different typing habits. Better create a layout concept on the basis of personal questions:
1) which keys do you personally use how often? which do you use the most? (key usage frequency)
2) which keys are in best reach for your fingers. (key accessability)
then assign those keys you are using most frequent to the keys which are in best reach. If you get rid of keys you don’t use at all (e.g. CapsLock, ScrollLock, RightShift, Pause, WinKey, AppKey), then 60% keyboards have enough keys to allow every function you need.

For me, Home, End, PageUp, PageDown are completely unnecessary as standalone keys, because I feel more comfortable to access those functions by combinations with Fn and arrow keys. I don’t like Ctrl+Left, ..+Right, ..+Up, ..+Down for Home, End, PageUp, PageDown, since those key combinations are already in use for jumping from one cluster of characters to the next cluster. I prefer Fn (Fn+Left, ..+Right, ..+Up, ..+Down) to do that.

[ideus]

I like the aesthetics of a 60% layout a lot in my Poker X for example. But I cannot keep using it for long periods as I always prefer to have dedicated arrows. It is not a matter of frequency of use, but how useful they are for navigation, blocking selection, as in excel, and windows relocation. I just cannot have them accessed by an FN+ combination, as they can be used with other modifiers for different purposes.

I found the FC-660M layout to be the real minimum for my needs, and TKL the sweet spot against a full keyboard, that I do not like for the position of the mouse.

All opinions can coexist though. However there are some habits that can make some to think that arrows are not important, the fact is that arrows made into keyboard mainstreams for a reason. Only in the typewriter era arrows were not needed at all for the simple fact that you cannot actually navigate in a piece of paper.

[vivalarevolución]

This is a great layout.  I think the pipe/backslash would be a great spot for the question mark/forward slash key, and then put the pipe/backslash on the FN layer.

[ckar]

.

[FrostyToast]

I'd like to see a 60% that doesn't require movement off the homerow for all your needs.  Instead of using a "FN" key - how about a pedal that can be connected to the board that will activate additional layers?

I bet you could easily jump some wires on the FN key to add a pedal. I haven't seen anyone do it, but it could definitely be possible.

[spiceBar]

The layout is terrible. This is exactly why geeks should not be designing keyboards. The arrow cluster looks too ghetto. It is really only something a keyboard geek would have thought of. What is really sad is the OP has just no clue and thinks he has made something great. I am really glad he doesn't have the money to mass produce such a keyboard to bring this monstrosity into the world.

I have since created even more monstrous layouts called SpaceFN and GuiFN.

I'm prepared to take over the world with them thanks to a billionaire friend of mine and forever ruin your life.

[ideus]

The layout is terrible. This is exactly why geeks should not be designing keyboards. The arrow cluster looks too ghetto. It is really only something a keyboard geek would have thought of. What is really sad is the OP has just no clue and thinks he has made something great. I am really glad he doesn't have the money to mass produce such a keyboard to bring this monstrosity into the world.

It is more than enough to just say that you do not like it. Oherwise, the layout has the merit to use only standard caps that makes it useful for people that like to customize the board. Also, some of us need arrow keys but the boards that have them are either larger than 60 or have a lot of special keys.

[davkol]

ckar has a point. This layout is dependent on bottom-row keycap profile and size. While the OP mentions "standard" keycap sizes and stuff, it actually means the layout of Filco Majestouch2, Poker, etc. It looks awkward on a realforce, and hard to use on a Cherry G80-1800 or a 104key Unicomp (e.g., EnduraPro), because of the ? shifted relatively to the right, not left.

[spiceBar]

ckar has a point. This layout is dependent on bottom-row keycap profile and size. While the OP mentions "standard" keycap sizes and stuff, it actually means the layout of Filco Majestouch2, Poker, etc. It looks awkward on a realforce, and hard to use on a Cherry G80-1800 or a 104key Unicomp (e.g., EnduraPro), because of the ? shifted relatively to the right, not left.

I have a Realforce and I have tried the layout on it. It was one of the first keyboards on which I tried it, because I had this keyboard on my Linux box and wanted to xmodmap the layout to try it for real. The fact that the keys are slightly different was not a problem at all.

The G80-1800 has dedicated arrow keys in this area, so why would you use my suggested layout on it?

The layout would be useable on the EnduraPro, but again you why would you use it on a keyboard that already has arrow keys?

The layout has been designed for 60% keyboards, and most of the available ones are exactly as I pictured, except the ones that already have arrow keys, on which you would not use my layout anyway.

Since my OP, I have designed other layouts that I believe are better than this one. But you have already seen them, I know. I just want to point out that this layout was one of my initial attempts and that I know it has several drawbacks.

I have learned a lot from the criticism received from this layout, and in my next attempts (SpaceFN and GuiFN) I have tried to take them into account.

[davkol]

Why do people use hjkl in Vim, even when they're using a full-size keyboard with arrow keys? Probably because it reduces hand travel. The same thing about DreymaR's Extend layer.

The keyboards I mentioned were the few I had at hand. It applies to many more (like some hybrid-switch mitsumi or Dell AT101W, because of keycap profile). Besides, some users of keyboards like Filco Minila may wish to remap the layout.

I meant my comment more as a highlight on a design principle.

[spiceBar]

Why do people use hjkl in Vim, even when they're using a full-size keyboard with arrow keys? Probably because it reduces hand travel. The same thing about DreymaR's Extend layer.

The keyboards I mentioned were the few I had at hand. It applies to many more (like some hybrid-switch mitsumi or Dell AT101W, because of keycap profile). Besides, some users of keyboards like Filco Minila may wish to remap the layout.

I meant my comment more as a highlight on a design principle.

But what design principle? I designed a layout to provide direct access to arrow keys on existing 60% keyboards that do not have arrow keys.

It does not fit on SOME full size keyboards or some small keyboards that already have arrow keys? Wow. Too bad.

[davkol]

Poker and Pure, to be specific. My problem is essentially just with the "standard keycaps" term, because honestly, it's not a standard.

[ideus]

You should check the ANSI and ISO definitions, besides alpha-numeric characters most of the bottom row are defined as we know in the Poker for example.

[davkol]

*Size* of modifiers is not specified in ISO/IEC 9995. Only placement. Poker isn't ISO-compliant, because of the Fn key to the spacebar's right, among other things.

[jacobolus]

How about this:


Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.

[ideus]

What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.

[strict]

What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.

Wow, I am sincerely loving that layout. I've never seen a 60% board that I felt I could actually be comfortable using but that layout is definitely one I could adjust to.

Are there any PCBs that would support this layout? The GH60 looks like it would work except for the bottom row (mainly the arrow key layout). It looks like the bottom row is 1.25 x 1 x 1.25 x 6.25 x 1.25 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 ?

[ideus]

What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.

Wow, I am sincerely loving that layout. I've never seen a 60% board that I felt I could actually be comfortable using but that layout is definitely one I could adjust to.

Are there any PCBs that would support this layout? The GH60 looks like it would work except for the bottom row (mainly the arrow key layout). It looks like the bottom row is 1.25 x 1 x 1.25 x 6.25 x 1.25 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 ?

Those units are the right ones for the bottom row. I have not found a PCB that supports the layout. I have been considering to build one having a plate cut with laser, and direct wiring it with a Teensy. I have been too busy in the last months but it is in my ToDo list of keyboard projects.

The idea came after an old Mac keyboard layout, that also has that arrangement for the arrows.

[spiceBar]

How about this:

Show Image

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.

Not only it does not fit my initial criteria, but I have one specific problem with this kind of layout.

Recently I purchased a G84-4100. After a while trying to use it, I had to give up. The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).

So at least now I know that I will not even try a Race or any other "75%" keyboard.

But that's just me. I know these keyboards are reasonably popular.

On a more general level, I have seen many of the keyboard designs you have published. I have almost never commented on them, not because I'm not interested, but because I have contradicting feelings about them.

On one hand, I don't like any of them. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that. On the other hand, you are clearly working on the subject with a free spirit and good principles, and it's obviously something that I must respect. So I refrain from commenting because I understand I may be too narrow-minded. I have chosen a set of constraints, like using existing layouts, that don't apply to your work. I just follow what you do with interest and I believe that something good will come of it.

[jacobolus]

How about this:

Show Image

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.

The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).

Notice that “backspace” is a thumb key in my proposed layout. I think you’ll find that with a few hours (or perhaps days at the outside) of adjustment, this is much easier and more natural than reaching up toward a far corner of the keyboard. (Though depending on your habits, you might prefer to use the left thumb for space and the right thumb for backspace.) The key in the top right-ish of this proposed layout is the 'delete' key. On a keyboard intended for my own personal use, I wouldn’t put that there (or use anything this close to a standard keyboard layout, for that matter). However, some people seem to like having access to as many as possible of the keys available on a TKL size keyboard, so I stuck delete in there.

Your original criteria were:

1. Must be 60% (it's the "typewriter" cluster of a PC keyboard)
2. Must have a standard PC layout: all the keycaps must have standard sizes
3. Has an arrow cluster always directly accessible (no Poker-like mode switching)
4. Doesn't mess with the Shift keys so touch-typing is still possible
5. Has all the other missing keys (F1…F12, PrtScr, ScrlLck, Pause/Break…) accessible through a Fn layer

This layout satisfies (1) precisely; it somewhat satisfies (2) in that it leaves the alpha keys, all the symbols except backtick, enter, both shifts, and the main modifiers unmoved, while slightly moving tab and backtick, shifting the whole number row to the right by half a key, and pushing backspace to a thumb (and pushing caps lock off the base layer) – of course, it very much fails to use standard keycaps for everything; it satisfies (3) and (4), and meets (5) with ease.

I think this is closer to “standard” than your proposed layout in several important ways: (a) it preserves Alt Gr, (b) it preserves backtick and backslash, (c) it leaves slash (which is also question mark) in its original easy-to-locate position, (d) it keeps the arrow keys in their standard shape/arrangement, (e) it includes page up/page down/home/end/delete.

[Hope I don’t sound defensive here... I’m mostly just throwing out ideas here and hoping someone is inspired, not necessarily suggesting anyone should use precisely this layout. Again, I wouldn’t use it myself. For me personally, separate arrow keys is an anti-feature.]

On one hand, I don't like any of [the various layouts I’ve been proposing recently]. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that.

That’s entirely fair. From my perspective, the standard QWERTY/Sholes layout is so impressively bad that anything that *doesn’t* go very far from standard is doing something very wrong. ;-) The lowest-hanging fruit as far as improvements go is making sure there’s at least one common key for each thumb to press, and moving backspace to a more convenient location, since the standard backspace location is truly awful.

[spiceBar]

How about this:

Show Image

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.

The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).

Notice that “backspace” is a thumb key in my proposed layout. I think you’ll find that with a few hours (or perhaps days at the outside) of adjustment, this is much easier and more natural than reaching up toward a far corner of the keyboard. (Though depending on your habits, you might prefer to use the left thumb for space and the right thumb for backspace.) The key in the top right-ish of this proposed layout is the 'delete' key. On a keyboard intended for my own personal use, I wouldn’t put that there (or use anything this close to a standard keyboard layout, for that matter). However, some people seem to like having access to as many as possible of the keys available on a TKL size keyboard, so I stuck delete in there.

Your original criteria were:

1. Must be 60% (it's the "typewriter" cluster of a PC keyboard)
2. Must have a standard PC layout: all the keycaps must have standard sizes
3. Has an arrow cluster always directly accessible (no Poker-like mode switching)
4. Doesn't mess with the Shift keys so touch-typing is still possible
5. Has all the other missing keys (F1…F12, PrtScr, ScrlLck, Pause/Break…) accessible through a Fn layer

This layout satisfies (1) precisely; it somewhat satisfies (2) in that it leaves the alpha keys, all the symbols except backtick, enter, both shifts, and the main modifiers unmoved, while slightly moving tab and backtick, shifting the whole number row to the right by half a key, and pushing backspace to a thumb (and pushing caps lock off the base layer) – of course, it very much fails to use standard keycaps for everything; it satisfies (3) and (4), and meets (5) with ease.

I think this is closer to “standard” than your proposed layout in several important ways: (a) it preserves Alt Gr, (b) it preserves backtick and backslash, (c) it leaves slash (which is also question mark) in its original easy-to-locate position, (d) it keeps the arrow keys in their standard shape/arrangement, (e) it includes page up/page down/home/end/delete.

Your points are correct.

You know, the layout I have suggested in this thread is quite old now. It was my first published attempt and I have learned from the feedback I have got. I don't think it's good anymore.

I have answered some other remarks because I felt some were not justified, but frankly my newest layouts SpaceFN and GuiFN are much better.

[Hope I don’t sound defensive here... I’m mostly just throwing out ideas here and hoping someone is inspired, not necessarily suggesting anyone should use precisely this layout. Again, I wouldn’t use it myself.]

On one hand, I don't like any of [the various layouts I’ve been proposing recently]. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that.

That’s entirely fair. From my perspective, the standard QWERTY/Sholes layout is so impressively bad that anything that *doesn’t* go very far from standard is doing something very wrong. ;-)

I don't want to reinvent the keyboard.

I just want to use what's out there and adapt it with a few changes.

The layouts I have published are all doable on a commercially available keyboards like the Poker X or Poker II and either a software driver or a hardware controller. Keycaps can be found or can be manufactured easily, and this is available to anyone (I have designed and purchased customized keysets from WASD for the SpaceFN and GuiFN layouts).

As a result, all the layouts I have published have been implemented in the real world, by me and by a number of other people.

There are real keyboards out there using the layouts I have suggested, and this was one of my goals.

You have more ambitious goals, that's OK.