Avant Stellar replacement recommendations?

[sprintf32768]

Hello,

  There is such a wealth of information and intelligence in this forum, it is pretty wonderful to behold.

   I am trying to piece together "the universe of keyboards" so that I can decide what keyboard should replace my Avant Stellar.   Of course, I have so many "parts" Avant Stellars that I really should just whip out my soldering iron and fix them.  But I can't help but think that someone out there is making a truly awesome keyboard that I just haven't found yet.  Avant Stellars are crusty and have had the same firmware bugs for ten   years.  I'd like to give my money to someone else, someone who cares.

   Reading through these forums, there are a few keyboards that are universally loved.  No one ever says anything bad about the HHKB, for example.  Or, everyone seems to agree that the IBM Model M does not have any *problems*, if you don't mind buckling springs.  It would be great if there was a web page somewhere (here?) where the "top ten" keyboards could be listed, with their different properties, so that people like me could get up to speed very quickly.  Sort of a starting point for keyboard maniacs.  No crap keyboards or marketing junk, just keyswitch and rollover talkk.

   Anyway, my problem is that every keyboard I've bought seems to have some new quirk that makes it worse than the Avant Stellar.  The Scorpius M10 can't detect my C-X C-C, but it seemed like a decent enough typing experience.  The DAS-3 can't sequence keys properly, but it felt very nice.  Something about the EnduraPro wasn't quite right at all, but I haven't used it for a while.  I have an old Model M but it's like a musical joke to type on that thing -- I must not like buckling springs.

   You know what I want from a keyboard?  I want it to detect *all* the keys I type, in the order I type them.  Even if I type them very fast (I'm looking at you, DAS3).

   So, sorry for the long post.  If anyone has any bright ideas, please send 'em my way.  Otherwise I am going to whip out my soldering iron, and that is usually not pretty.

[iMav]

We are working on organizing our information a bit better now.  I'm guessing it will take a month or two before we are "there"...For now, the reviews section is good as well as some of the wiki info.

Based on the keyboards you have purchased, it sounds like you like the numpad (or, at least, it is not a deal breaker for you)...so you have quite a few options.

It is not uncommon to see an occasional NIB Dell AT101W on eBay.  These can be had for cheap and are characterized by many as GKOAT (Greatest Keyboard Of All Time).  

Sounds like you don't like buckling springs...You don't mention what your true preferences are regarding tactility and "clickiness".  Topre RealForce keyboards are excellent.  Build quality is top notch and the brown Cherry switches are very nice to type on (from personal experience).  

The DataDesk 101E is a nice white Alps 'board, but is ADB only and requires a USB<>ADB adapter.  I have one of these that I got NIB and find it to be a decent 'board as well.

I'll let the gamers chime in with rollover info...but this should give you some direction.

[wellington1869]

what do you mean that the m10 doesnt detect c-x and c-c? My m10 seems fine in that regard...

[sprintf32768]

what do you mean that the m10 doesnt detect c-x and c-c? My m10 seems fine in that regard...

  Oh, it's just the way I type it.  I seem to hit it so fast, or chord it in just the unluckiest way, that half the time the M10 just doesn't bring it through.  Was a deal-breaker for me.  Otherwise I thought the keyboard was swell.

[sprintf32768]

...

It is not uncommon to see an occasional NIB Dell AT101W on eBay.  These can be had for cheap and are characterized by many as GKOAT (Greatest Keyboard Of All Time).  

What a great tip!  So cheap I can't not try it.

Topre RealForce keyboards are excellent.  Build quality is top notch and the brown Cherry switches are very nice to type on (from personal experience).  

The DataDesk 101E is a nice white Alps 'board, but is ADB only and requires a USB<>ADB adapter.  I have one of these that I got NIB and find it to be a decent 'board as well.

Wow, thanks for these tips... I have never even heard of Topre and DataDesk.  That Topre keyboard ought to be extremely nice for $250+!?!  That is past my pain threshold.

I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with me.  We were joking around the office that we were going to end up making our own keyboards, just to find one that worked properly.  After spending a little time here, I am glad to see that some other people really care about their keyboards as much as we do.

[xsphat]

Another one to watch for is the Focus 2001. It has the same layout as the Northgate / Avant Prime, and they can be had for relatively cheap.

And the Topre keyboards are worth every cent. You can find the Realforce 101 for around $200 and it has the same layout as the Model M.

[iMav]

Topre RealForce keyboards are excellent.  Build quality is top notch and the brown Cherry switches are very nice to type on (from personal experience).

Oops.  I actually meant the Filco keyboards with the brown Cherrys.  They can be had for under $200 in a wireless configuration, or under $150 for a wired configuration.

However, according to xsphat, the Topre RealForce keyboards with the capacitive switches (much like the HHKB Pro's) are also excellent.  

[xsphat]

However, according to xsphat, the Topre RealForce keyboards with the capacitive switches (much like the HHKB Pro's) are also excellent.  

Hey, how many other keyboards do I use for two weeks before I switch keyboards for one day MAX before I go back to it? The answer is simple — one, the Topre Realforce 86.

And iMav is correct about the Filco keyboards, though if you are into the Alps whites, I think the Cherry black switches might be more your speed. And the build quality of Filco boards is amazing, truly some of the best built keyboards available today.

[alpslover]

Wow, thanks for these tips... I have never even heard of Topre and DataDesk.  That Topre keyboard ought to be extremely nice for $250+!?!  

topres look like $10 keyboards from the late 80's.  but nobody buys a topre for how it looks, they buy it for the way it types.  it feels like a smooth, high end rubber dome keyboard, so if you absolutely need to have that crisp 'mechanical' feel to the keys, topres are not for you.

[alpslover]

What a great tip!  So cheap I can't not try it.

but you also said you wanted n-key rollover, which dells don't have.

[bhtooefr]

topres look like $10 keyboards from the late 80's.  but nobody buys a topre for how it looks, they buy it for the way it types.  it feels like a smooth, high end rubber dome keyboard, so if you absolutely need to have that crisp 'mechanical' feel to the keys, topres are not for you.

And I think that post made me lose all desire to try a Topre.

So I guess it's Cherry blues, good Alps bigfoot whites?, and Alps leaf springs that I need to try.

[alpslover]

i should probably clarify - topre switches are crisper and more precise than typical rubber dome keyboards, but they don't give you that 'in your face' sharp crispness of a click tactile alps or cherry.

it's something you really need to try to see if it's up your alley.  but i guess that's true with any keyboard, just more so when it costs over $200.

i am still ambivalent about the weighted keys.

[lowpoly]

topres look like $10 keyboards from the late 80's.

The white ones, but not the black ones? Looks like at least the 86U uses the same paint as the HHKB. Which looks really good.

[xsphat]

i should probably clarify - topre switches are crisper and more precise than typical rubber dome keyboards, but they don't give you that 'in your face' sharp crispness of a click tactile alps or cherry.

Have you ever used a Topre switch?

[alpslover]

Have you ever used a Topre switch?

yes.

[xsphat]

I have never heard it compared to a rubber dome keyboard. They don't have the snap of mechanical boards but don't feel crappy at all.

So do you like Topre switches or are they not your thing?

[alpslover]

I have never heard it compared to a rubber dome keyboard.

probably because few people who buy a $250 keyboard want to hear it being compared to a $5 keyboard.

i don't see a problem with comparing the topre switches to rubber domes, because the topres do in fact have rubber domes, and the way the topres buckle feels exactly the way a tactile rubber dome buckles.  of course, where they differ is that the topres are a lot smoother throughout their stroke and their actuation point is a bit higher up (although i've noticed inconsistencies between individual switches, i.e. some keys are more sensitive than others).

They don't have the snap of mechanical boards but don't feel crappy at all.

i don't think they feel crappy.

So do you like Topre switches or are they not your thing?

i like them as far as quieter switches go.  i'm not so sure i like the different weights on realforces - i do notice the loss of tactility on the lighter keys, especially when trying to hit a bunch of them in rapid succession.  those sequences slow me down a bit vs. other keyboards.

[bhtooefr]

Hmm... So I definitely need to try them...

Dharma Tactical is 35g, IIRC, the Realforce is varying weight (with 55g on Esc,) and the HHKP is 45 on all keys, right?

With what I usually like in keyboards, I'm gonna guess that if I like the Topres, it'll be 55g all around that I like.

[xsphat]

alpslover, I have to admit that I'm not sold on the the different weights for keys either. I wish they were all 45g (like the HHKB Pro) instead of 30g, 45, and 55g on Esc. I got used to it, and the keys don't feel all that different.

[zwmalone]

Oops.  I actually meant the Filco keyboards with the brown Cherrys.  They can be had for under $200 in a wireless configuration, or under $150 for a wired configuration.

However, according to xsphat, the Topre RealForce keyboards with the capacitive switches (much like the HHKB Pro's) are also excellent.  

He said he enjoyed the feel of the Das Keyboard and the M10, so a Filco with Blue Cherrys (dang you spellcheck, it's not a fruit!) may be what he's looking for.  Every review I've read about them have been positive, and they don't have rollover issues like the Das.

[bhtooefr]

How are the Filco's switches mounted? And, how are the M10's switches mounted?

You might end up being best off buying an M10 and a Filco, and swapping the switches. Sell the M10 to someone who's a brown switch nut who doesn't need a Filco, and you come out ahead.

[alpslover]

Hmm... So I definitely need to try them...

Dharma Tactical is 35g, IIRC, the Realforce is varying weight (with 55g on Esc,) and the HHKP is 45 on all keys, right?

the num lock on non-castrated realforces is also 55g.

With what I usually like in keyboards, I'm gonna guess that if I like the Topres, it'll be 55g all around that I like.

you might not like the realforce weighted keys then.  the lighter ones in particular feel like mush on the way down compared to the 45g keys.  i used to think that it was just due to the springs but now i strongly suspect the domes are different as well.  i'll know when i take mine apart.

[alpslover]

alpslover, I have to admit that I'm not sold on the the different weights for keys either. I wish they were all 45g (like the HHKB Pro) instead of 30g, 45, and 55g on Esc. I got used to it, and the keys don't feel all that different.

i don't notice it as much if i don't think about it.  but then i'll try to type a word like 'assassinate', **** up the 'assass', go back and type it a little slower, and get annoyed by the mushiness of those keys.

also, when i play games i often use my index and middle fingers for the '1' and '2' keys.  the lower tactility is very noticeable.

[lowpoly]

'assassinate', **** up the 'assass'

I'm surprised the forum filter didn't do more harm here.

[alpslover]

it did manage to censor 'c.o.c.k.' which is hardly a bad word.

[bhtooefr]

You know, I'm gonna start a farm of asses and ****s, and then maybe branch out into raising dogs, but I'm gonna need to get a few *****es to start out.

And I might have to get a loan from a guy named ****.

[itlnstln]

Well, I am going to start a cat farm, and, well, you know the rest.

[sprintf32768]

Oops.  I actually meant the Filco keyboards with the brown Cherrys.  They can be had for under $200 in a wireless configuration, or under $150 for a wired configuration.

However, according to xsphat, the Topre RealForce keyboards with the capacitive switches (much like the HHKB Pro's) are also excellent.  

  Thanks again.  That web site has a bunch of exotic keyboards!  And maybe I'll ask Santa for a RealForce.