Is HHKB suitable for Windows developers?

[slamrage]

I'm considering to purchase a keyboard recently.
HHKB seems to be my best choice for now.
But the problem is that I heard some of users are complaining that it was not very suitable for Windows users.
And I have my own concern:
The most used shortcut keys in Visual Studio are F5, F10.. etc.
And we have to press two keys in HHKB. Is it better?

I can use VIM quite well, and I really like the layout of the HHKB, especially for Arrow keys.

Does anybody who ever used HHKB with Visual Studio?
Or
Are there any other keyboards which are more suitable for Windows Users?
 

[slamrage]

Waiting ..... .

[MTManiac]

you expected a detailed reply in under 7 minutes?
the pizza man can't even guarantee under 30 minutes anymore...

[Glenn315]

you expected a detailed reply in under 7 minutes?
the pizza man can't even guarantee under 30 minutes anymore...

Hahaha true that.

[divito]

you expected a detailed reply in under 7 minutes?
the pizza man can't even guarantee under 30 minutes anymore...

Well, to be fair, when I arrived here, I too was under a biased impression. Given the geek-type nature of a forum surrounding keyboards, I would have imagined a lot more frequency among visitors for quicker and more constant communication on this board.

[slamrage]

Well, at least I've got your reply for now. )

you expected a detailed reply in under 7 minutes?
the pizza man can't even guarantee under 30 minutes anymore...

[slamrage]

Guys... we are discussing keyboards....
Not the forum, nor communication...

you expected a detailed reply in under 7 minutes?
the pizza man can't even guarantee under 30 minutes anymore...

Well, to be fair, when I arrived here, I too was under a biased impression. Given the geek-type nature of a forum surrounding keyboards, I would have imagined a lot more frequency among visitors for quicker and more constant communication on this board.

[lcs]

I would reply if I could.

What I can say is that it seems to be a matter of getting used to it.

However, if you use the arrow keys a lot it could be a bit annoying.

But again, I don't have a HHKB nor use windows

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

As a windows and HHKB user, I feel obligated to answer this question. About your concern over the lack of function row: I actually enjoy having the functions keys in the Fn layer as I don't have to move my hands off the homerow to access them. That's the joy of using a HHKB, you can use almost every key a fullsized keyboard has, except more efficiently. Also for the arrow keys, I find them much better than a fullsized board for the same reason as the function row, I don't have to move my hand off the homerow to access them. Just let me know if you have any other questions or concerns. 

[TheSoulhunter]

As a windows and HHKB user, I feel obligated to answer this question. About your concern over the lack of function row: I actually enjoy having the functions keys in the Fn layer as I don't have to move my hands off the homerow to access them. That's the joy of using a HHKB, you can use almost every key a fullsized keyboard has, except more efficiently. Also for the arrow keys, I find them much better than a fullsized board for the same reason as the function row, I don't have to move my hand off the homerow to access them. Just let me know if you have any other questions or concerns. 

This! Also I fell in love with the Control/Backspace/Delete placement, gonna do that on my GH60 as well

[slamrage]

As a windows and HHKB user, I feel obligated to answer this question. About your concern over the lack of function row: I actually enjoy having the functions keys in the Fn layer as I don't have to move my hands off the homerow to access them. That's the joy of using a HHKB, you can use almost every key a fullsized keyboard has, except more efficiently. Also for the arrow keys, I find them much better than a fullsized board for the same reason as the function row, I don't have to move my hand off the homerow to access them. Just let me know if you have any other questions or concerns. 

Thanks Buddy
The arrow keys in HHKB is the most important reason why I want to buy HHKB.
And so does the Ctrl Key.

Are you using Visual Studio frequently? How does it feel?

[hashbaz]

daerid has a relevant opinion on this topic, you might try PMing him if he doesn't find his way in here.

I don't use Visual Studio daily, but I do perform many Ctrl-{something} shortcuts.  I switch regularly between standard-layout boards and HHKB/FC660/Poker.  You get used to it and it's no big deal.  The lack of dedicated arrow keys might be a bigger issue for you, but there are thousands of emacs users who will tell you that using a Ctrl combination for cursor movement it no biggie.

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

Thanks Buddy
The arrow keys in HHKB is the most important reason why I want to buy HHKB.
And so does the Ctrl Key.

Are you using Visual Studio frequently? How does it feel?

I don't use Visual Studio but I use other programs that require frequent use of the arrow and function keys. I took me maybe a day to get the layout into my muscle memory and it was smooth sailing from there.

[MTManiac]

whoops, I added an edit but must have not posted when cleaning firefox tabs

I can only give a half of an opinion.  I have tried a HHKB Lite 2 (same layout, cheaper @$#%^@$% switches)
The layout is pretty nice, and you can get used to the hotkeys pretty quickly if you use it enough.
Never having tried a topre switch, but always been looking to (torn between the fc660c and the hhkb pro 2) I can't say how they feel, but there are a couple good discussions going on right now in the keyboard forum about that exact topic.

[dante]

What would really help sell more HHKB's is a video showing examples of day to day usage with this layout.

[domoaligato]

What would really help sell more HHKB's is a video showing examples of day to day usage with this layout.

and lowering the price.

[daerid]

I tried and tried to get used to the HHKB for Visual Studio development. TBH, the breaking point wasn't that the arrows were on a second layer (as I currently have that in my ErgoDox layout). It was the fact that the arrow keys weren't the standard inverted-T layout. And honestly, I know quite a few people love it, but hitting backspace with my pinky made my hand hurt all to hell. Plus, developing on Windows I tend to use the backslash key quite frequently, and having it not where my fingers expected added to the pain as I was straining my fingers in unnatural ways. Maybe I could've gotten over it in due time, but I couldn't really take the productivity hit. C'est la vie.

Currently I'm in Visual Studio probably about 10-12 hours a day, and have been using  a layout in some form or another that has my Function keys on a separate layer, and it hasn't been a problem, really.

I would however dispute the statement that F5/F10/F11 are the most used keys in Visual Studio. Arguably you should be using tests to verify behavior instead of dropping into the debugger, but that's a different conversation . If you're a heavy user of the arrow keys for editing (as I am in VS at least), then I would strongly suggest the FC660C over the HHKB. Which sucks, because I think the HHKB feels better to type on.

[hashbaz]

There's also the JP version of the HHKB.  All the dedicated arrow keys of the FC660C with none of the lack of HHKB feel.

[slamrage]

Thanks to all of you, Guys!

But I have to say I'm really confused now.
Now at least I have got two answers of "best" keyboards on Windows.
1. HHKB Pro2 or HHKB lite 2
2. FC660C

The reason why I'm looking at HHKB is that I like the arrows keys on HHKB, which might be the reason that others don't like it.
Are there any other choices?

The worst thing is that I cannot try it before making a decision.
Are there any stores in New Jersey which can let me try HHKB?

[slamrage]

I tried and tried to get used to the HHKB for Visual Studio development. TBH, the breaking point wasn't that the arrows were on a second layer (as I currently have that in my ErgoDox layout). It was the fact that the arrow keys weren't the standard inverted-T layout. And honestly, I know quite a few people love it, but hitting backspace with my pinky made my hand hurt all to hell. Plus, developing on Windows I tend to use the backslash key quite frequently, and having it not where my fingers expected added to the pain as I was straining my fingers in unnatural ways. Maybe I could've gotten over it in due time, but I couldn't really take the productivity hit. C'est la vie.

Currently I'm in Visual Studio probably about 10-12 hours a day, and have been using  a layout in some form or another that has my Function keys on a separate layer, and it hasn't been a problem, really.

I would however dispute the statement that F5/F10/F11 are the most used keys in Visual Studio. Arguably you should be using tests to verify behavior instead of dropping into the debugger, but that's a different conversation . If you're a heavy user of the arrow keys for editing (as I am in VS at least), then I would strongly suggest the FC660C over the HHKB. Which sucks, because I think the HHKB feels better to type on.

Good suggestion.
But actually I like arrow keys of HHKB. I don't have to move hand, even my typing speed is not high.
And my right little finger doesn't work well like left one. So the backslash is a problem key which I have to move my hand even on full-sized keyboards..

My concern is only the function keys. In some cases I have to debug.. and it is so easy to use

[daerid]

Well, debugging with the Fn key isn't all that bad. Just have to train your muscle memory to hit that little fn key with the right pinky.

[norbauer]

I looked at the Happy Hacking keyboard too, but I ultimately decided that for developing in VS, I strongly prefer the Function row keys to be separated into groups of four so I can grab for them easily. (Granted, the fact that I use blank keycaps doesn't help.) The arrows thing on the 60-key is also a deal-killer for me.

One can theoretically get used to anything with enough time and practice, but I just don't feel like investing a lot of time and frustrating into learning a new set of muscle memories when I could be focusing on refining my actual coding skills instead. It's not like I'm running with a shortage of desk space.

I ultimately decided that a 104-key layout is the ideal set up for desktop development. I am considering investing in a small Poker or Happy Hacking, however, to carry around in my backpack when I want to have a nicer keyboard with my laptop on the go. In those case, I'm willing to take the productivity hit in favor of portability. But when it's your desktop keyboard and space isn't at a premium, why struggle needlessly?

[elttaboi]

I think having dedicated keys will always be better than fn combinations. I haven't tried a hhkb, but I've tried smaller layouts and it just seems like an extra step for me.
I also felt like this while playing starcraft. My hands are pretty big tho, and that could also make a difference.

[tbc]

I looked at the Happy Hacking keyboard too, but I ultimately decided that for developing in VS, I strongly prefer the Function row keys to be separated into groups of four so I can grab for them easily. (Granted, the fact that I use blank keycaps doesn't help.) The arrows thing on the 60-key is also a deal-killer for me.

One can theoretically get used to anything with enough time and practice, but I just don't feel like investing a lot of time and frustrating into learning a new set of muscle memories when I could be focusing on refining my actual coding skills instead. It's not like I'm running with a shortage of desk space.

I ultimately decided that a 104-key layout is the ideal set up for desktop development. I am considering investing in a small Poker or Happy Hacking, however, to carry around in my backpack when I want to have a nicer keyboard with my laptop on the go. In those case, I'm willing to take the productivity hit in favor of portability. But when it's your desktop keyboard and space isn't at a premium, why struggle needlessly?

do you need the numpad for actual Dev work?  I've seen tons of people who keep a numpad because they 'draw' on the numpad to enter their passwords

[bubchi89]

Like the other dude in this thread, I also dev in visual studio for my work. I am also a heavy vim user and thus have VsVim installed for VS. I am also a hotkey fanatic (I use pentadactyl for firefox and i3-wm for a window manager)

Anyways, my issue with this question is that it's incredibly vague. I have coworkers that don't even use the keyboard when they dev. They barely type at all and copy and paste half the time. Is it efficient? No. Are you working in the software industry where hacking solutions together is more important than writing tons of code? Yes. So is he functioning fine without even using the keyboard? Yep

On the other extreme lets say you are hotkey obsessed and want to be able to access all of the current hotkeys you use on your current keyboard when you switch to an HHKB. Well that question answers itself. You know where the keys will be... try pressing them?

You asked a specific question which is "is it feasible to develop with the function keys". Like someone else said, "you just bind it to the Fn row and you have them again".

I guess one thing I'd be worried about with less keys is _memorizing the hotkeys_. If you use VS shortcuts heavily, but now a random key "Foo" has been replaced with two keys "Bar + Baz == Foo" then you need to memorize that. Chances are if you only know ~15 ish hotkeys then you have no problem. But if you are pushing ~50 hotkeys memorized in VS then I can imagine the lack of keys becoming a struggle (because you'll need to re-memorize all of them and now the hotkeys will have... more keys). But, again, up to the individual to determine whether or not they are capable of doing it.

[norbauer]

I looked at the Happy Hacking keyboard too, but I ultimately decided that for developing in VS, I strongly prefer the Function row keys to be separated into groups of four so I can grab for them easily. (Granted, the fact that I use blank keycaps doesn't help.) The arrows thing on the 60-key is also a deal-killer for me.

One can theoretically get used to anything with enough time and practice, but I just don't feel like investing a lot of time and frustrating into learning a new set of muscle memories when I could be focusing on refining my actual coding skills instead. It's not like I'm running with a shortage of desk space.

I ultimately decided that a 104-key layout is the ideal set up for desktop development. I am considering investing in a small Poker or Happy Hacking, however, to carry around in my backpack when I want to have a nicer keyboard with my laptop on the go. In those case, I'm willing to take the productivity hit in favor of portability. But when it's your desktop keyboard and space isn't at a premium, why struggle needlessly?

do you need the numpad for actual Dev work?  I've seen tons of people who keep a numpad because they 'draw' on the numpad to enter their passwords

I wouldn't say you need the numpad for dev work so much as the properly space function rows (though technically, of course, you don't need either). I use the numpad a lot for entering international characters (I always use it to enter the em dash, for example, in UTF-8 environments), and there are some keyboard shortcuts (in Photoshop in particular) that rely on the numpad to work (just plain number entry won't work—same goes for the Alt codes for international characters.) So it just depends on what you're in the habit of using, really.

[rowdy]

I miss the arrow keys the most on my HHKB Pro 2.  And I cannot use Ctrl-A Ctrl-E and so on on Windows because Windows maps those to other functions.

So I use my HHKB on my Mac, where Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E and the other Ctrl-sequences work as intended, and the Command keys is used to get the Windows-like functions.

I tried the HHKB Pro 2 at work on Windows, but missed not only the arrow keys, but also Home, End, Page up, Page Down and function keys.

[Krigo]

I develop heavily in VS as well and I think daerid's comments are really on point.
Topre is absolutely a great switch but the HHKB is just not right for the job; my vote is for the FC660C

[Hellmark]

The idea of the "Happy Hacking" keyboard seems a bit silly to me, as common hotkeys for various apps are made more complicated on the HHKB. I work in the commandline and in various IDEs for dev work, and HHKB just wouldn't cut mustard for me.

[slamrage]

Thanks Guys.
Eventually, I have choosen RF 87U for couple of reasons:
1. HHKB's Fn key's position
    Even it can be placed on left meta key, it still might be an issue for me because the right meta key won't changed.
    As I said, my right little figure is not as agile as my left one.

2. Function keys and Windows Keys
    As a developer, I have to spend a lot of time to read the code not only write my little creepy things.
    I need the function keys which can do lots of help on Visual Studio, like F12, CTRL+F3..
    It will be a burden if we have to press one more key, especially while using mouse.
    And it is also the reason why I didn't choose FC660C.

3. This keyboard is mainly used for my works.
    I won't take it home and use it on my laptop. So there is no necessary to get used to HHKB at work, and switch back at home.

So, this is my choice.
Anyway, thanks for all of the suggestions.
    

[slamrage]

BTW, if I need a compact keyboard in the future.
Here are my considerations:
1. HHKB lite 2
2. Porker 2
3. Noppoo Choc Mini 84
 

[esoomenona]

2. Porker 2

So you like the Porkers, eh?

[slamrage]

2. Porker 2

So you like the Porkers, eh?

It's hard to say, I never used it before.
Actually I want to design a keyboard if I could.. )

[daerid]

...

[slamrage]

...

Trust me. I'm thinking about a new layout for coders.
Especially for vim and emacs users.

[slamrage]

BTW, is there anybody who can assemble it if I got a design?

[daerid]

A new layout...

for the Porkers...

[slamrage]

Sincerely, I can pay for it if it is not very expensive.

[slamrage]

A new layout...

for the Porkers...

I have put my design here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48300.0