Author Topic: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.  (Read 5304 times)

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Offline Folio

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So yesterday, I was wandering around my university's bookstore (UIC) and happened upon this old, blocky IBM laptop. I immediately started hitting the keys and Jesus Horatio Christ they were snappy as hell. It reminded me of my T61 Lenovo laptop keyboard only much clickier and more tactile, almost like a hybrid between the T61 keys and Topre keys. The lady behind the counter knew a lot about it surprisingly (turns out she was a keyboard fanatic too). She said it's a 1986 IBM PS/2 Model L40 SX, and the employees found it in a safe in storage and decided to show it off in the bookstore. Sadly, it's non functional. Apparently, the IT group tried really hard to make it work though.

Just thought I'd show you guys some nice old IBM-ware. And if anyone knows, what type of switches does this thing use? I could not get over how amazing it felt. It had maybe a 2-3 mm stroke. Sound was rather clicky, definitely tactile in feel. It almost sounded "dry" or hollow if you will. Don't know how to explain it. You couldn't really "float" the key. It bottomed out with every stroke. If I could possibly replicate this keystroke feel, I'd never buy another keyboard.

Offline lcs

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 10:58:33 »
I have no idea how to answer your question, but it's a very beautiful computer :)

Offline tricheboars

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 11:16:07 »
that is pretty cool. i really like the look of that keyboard.
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 11:20:41 »
that is pretty cool. i really like the look of that keyboard.

For sure. The whole thing kind of reminds me of a kid's toy computer from the 90's. But that high quality keyboard really steals the spot light. I wish companies still made their keyboards with as much thought and care as this one. It's a huge selling point imo.

Offline tricheboars

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 12:31:38 »
does it feel like ML switches? the caps could be ML caps from the little info i have.
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 12:40:21 »
does it feel like ML switches? the caps could be ML caps from the little info i have.

I've never tried ML switches before. Just looked it up, and it might be something like that since it is a laptop switch. That Cherry G84 Series looks dope as hell. I'd very much like to try it out.

Offline Tarzan

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 12:46:24 »
does it feel like ML switches? the caps could be ML caps from the little info i have.

I've never tried ML switches before. Just looked it up, and it might be something like that since it is a laptop switch. That Cherry G84 Series looks dope as hell. I'd very much like to try it out.

It probably won't be as nice as the IBM.  Most of the ML keyboards were made for equipment racks, so they're light and rarely used much.  The IBM was probably solidly built by comparison, and the additional mass would tend to dampen some of the cheap clickiness of the usual ML switch.

If you really want one, you can find them from a variety of sellers for $20 or so.  I keep one in my laptop bag for travel, because as crappy as they are, they still beat the stock keyboard on the Dell.   :-X

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=Cherry+ML4100+keyboard&_sop=15

Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 13:05:29 »

It probably won't be as nice as the IBM.  Most of the ML keyboards were made for equipment racks, so they're light and rarely used much.  The IBM was probably solidly built by comparison, and the additional mass would tend to dampen some of the cheap clickiness of the usual ML switch.

If you really want one, you can find them from a variety of sellers for $20 or so.  I keep one in my laptop bag for travel, because as crappy as they are, they still beat the stock keyboard on the Dell.   :-X

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=Cherry+ML4100+keyboard&_sop=15

Thanks. And hey, at least I'll have something new and affordable to add to my collection now.

Offline divito

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:24:18 »
Quote
Show Image

This is like the perfect layout...Does anyone know if there is a keyboard that is close to this? Closest thing I've seen is maybe the KBT Race, as it keeps five the 6-keys, as well as arrows.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:04:25 by divito »
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:37:09 »
I feel like going back there, picking this piece up, and modifying it so it can be hooked up to other computers. Like just taking the keyboard part and making it compatible with USB on my desktop comp. Any of you think this is do-able? Or am I just dreaming something that can never happen?

Offline divito

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:41:06 »
I feel like going back there, picking this piece up, and modifying it so it can be hooked up to other computers. Like just taking the keyboard part and making it compatible with USB on my desktop comp. Any of you think this is do-able? Or am I just dreaming something that can never happen?

Well, according to what you said, the IT dept. couldn't get the entire thing to work, right? Given that it looks in good condition otherwise, as long as there is no other damage and the components of the keyboard aren't fried, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get it working in some way.

Really interested to see how it goes for you.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:43:13 by divito »
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:54:36 »
the leopold fc660 and matias mini are similar.

to answer your question: there's a chance it's a rubber dome (like the M4). I have seen other small computers that used old cherry switches (open M8's I think) though there aren't too many IBM branded cherry keyboards.

can you pull off a keycap?

I feel like going back there, picking this piece up, and modifying it so it can be hooked up to other computers. Like just taking the keyboard part and making it compatible with USB on my desktop comp. Any of you think this is do-able? Or am I just dreaming something that can never happen?

It depends on how it's communicating with the rest of the computer. Most modern laptops plug the matrix into the motherboard, or communicate on USB/PS2 (ps2 is more common for trackpads, from what I've seen)

you'll have to take it apart and see.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:58:04 by dorkvader »

Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:59:19 »

Well, according to what you said, the IT dept. couldn't get the entire thing to work, right? Given that it looks in good condition otherwise, as long as there is no other damage and the components of the keyboard aren't fried, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get it working in some way.

Really interested to see how it goes for you.

I don't know too much about modding, but I'm sure it would work. Just need a bit of help, and I'm sure some modders on here could do it in their sleep. I think some components might have just gone over their life limit and corroded like an old battery. But I'm thinking with some new solder joints, the keyboard could be salvaged. Then again, I'm just speculating.

Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:08:20 »
the leopold fc660 and matias mini are similar.

to answer your question: there's a chance it's a rubber dome (like the M4). I have seen other small computers that used old cherry switches (open M8's I think) though there aren't too many IBM branded cherry keyboards.

can you pull off a keycap?


I really wanted to pull one off to see what it had underneath, but I don't carry my keycap puller with me everywhere I go. Even if I did have it, I think the lady would either freak out or wouldn't let me. I think now is the time to plan out a breaking and entering scenario. Or maybe I could just buy it off her. I feel a little too invasive if I were to go back and ask her if I could pull the keys off. Damn my awkwardness.


Offline divito

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:09:41 »
I really wanted to pull one off to see what it had underneath, but I don't carry my keycap puller with me everywhere I go. Even if I did have it, I think the lady would either freak out or wouldn't let me. I think now is the time to plan out a breaking and entering scenario. Or maybe I could just buy it off her. I feel a little too invasive if I were to go back and ask her if I could pull the keys off. Damn my awkwardness.

Awkwardness aside, perhaps explaining your association with this forum could help allow you more access, which could open up a conversation towards acquiring it.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:13:21 »
The layout is pretty much identical to that of a Model M4 keyboard, but the M4's weren't clicky, they had rubber "sleeves" which is essentially like a rubber dome.

On another note, the mouse I use as my daily driver is an IBM TrackPoint L40, which is the mouse that was released with those laptops.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:15:11 by Computer-Lab in Basement »
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 15:13:45 »

Awkwardness aside, perhaps explaining your association with this forum could help allow you more access, which could open up a conversation towards acquiring it.

Possibly. I'll try it. She might even go on here herself. Who knows.

Offline jkercado

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 16:41:45 »
That looks like my M4. The switches are odd, they have small rubber cups that act as springs. They're very snappy and loud for being essentially rubber domes. Feel quite good, extremely tactile.

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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 04 September 2013, 17:39:11 »
PS/2 L40 SX? That's M4-style rubber domes. The L40 came first - the M4 came much, much later. (Note lack of TrackPoint.) It's an ISA bus (as opposed to MCA) 386 SX. I believe a 25MHz, but may be a 16MHz or 33MHz. SX indicates no floating point unit - they used to be optional. It's circa 1990. They're also missing the included numeric keypad and IBM wedge 2 button mouse.

Getting one of these working requires a working battery pack and some very exotic parts. The fault is probably the internal rechargeable standby battery - it's an old NiCd separate from the large NiCd battery pack. (No, not a button cell CR2032 style at all.) If that battery fails, the system won't power on.

EDIT: It wouldn't surprise me if that example had the 80MB disk and 4MB of FPM as well. It's got the modem for sure, and that's usually an indication it's pretty decked out.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 September 2013, 17:41:34 by rootwyrm »
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 00:28:13 »
PS/2 L40 SX? That's M4-style rubber domes. The L40 came first - the M4 came much, much later. (Note lack of TrackPoint.) It's an ISA bus (as opposed to MCA) 386 SX. I believe a 25MHz, but may be a 16MHz or 33MHz. SX indicates no floating point unit - they used to be optional. It's circa 1990. They're also missing the included numeric keypad and IBM wedge 2 button mouse.

Getting one of these working requires a working battery pack and some very exotic parts. The fault is probably the internal rechargeable standby battery - it's an old NiCd separate from the large NiCd battery pack. (No, not a button cell CR2032 style at all.) If that battery fails, the system won't power on.

EDIT: It wouldn't surprise me if that example had the 80MB disk and 4MB of FPM as well. It's got the modem for sure, and that's usually an indication it's pretty decked out.

Is there a current key switch that is equivalent to the M4 style?

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 01:00:42 »
a 486SX is a no-floating-point 486DX.

A 386SX is on a 16-bit data bus, a 386DX has 32-bit.  They're sort of designed to drop into 286 mobo designs with minimal modifications.   I have a 386SX PC which was sold as either a 12MHz 286 or 16MHz 386 by using a different modular CPU card.
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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 02:17:18 »
a 486SX is a no-floating-point 486DX.

A 386SX is on a 16-bit data bus, a 386DX has 32-bit.  They're sort of designed to drop into 286 mobo designs with minimal modifications.   I have a 386SX PC which was sold as either a 12MHz 286 or 16MHz 386 by using a different modular CPU card.

I built.. Iunno, thirtyish 386 systems give or take? Maybe nearer forty.

The 386SX was always sans-FPU. Period. The whole POINT of the SX was "cost reduction" and part of that was no FPU, no cache. The 386DX was introduced after the SX to differentiated between which had a cache and standard FPU capability. (The SX uses a non-standard FPU in Intel land. Get to that in a minute.)
Oh, and that only applies to the Intel 80386 vs 386SX vs 386DX - it does not apply to the IBM 386 (under license), the AMD Am386SX, C&T Super386, or the Intel 386SXSA or i386EX (oh, or the 386CXSB which perversely was sometimes called a CX or SX.) It's like 68k-roulette or Guess-The-MIPS but the performance always sucks.

The ThinkPad L40 is equipped with, to quote the original sales brochure, "386SX(TM) processing power" but could be expanded to 18MB of DRAM. You can't do that on an Intel 386SX.
So yeah. It is not an Intel 386SX. It's an IBM 386SLC CMOS 3.3V (vs Intel on CHMOS IV at 5V) which is marketed as a 386SX because it is instruction compatible. But it is NOT pin compatible or voltage compatible with the 80386.
Though I did remember the clocks wrong - 16/20/25 for IBM "386SX(TM)", vs 16/20/25/33 Intel(R) 386SX(TM).

To wit: IBM never once shipped an Intel 386 CPU. Not ever. There is no example of an IBM system prior to late 486DX2 family which shipped with a genuine Intel part. IBM had a license and made their own 100% instruction compatible CPUs on CMOS process - a more advanced process than Intel had by far - exclusively for use in IBM systems. You could not buy an IBM 386 or 486 except installed in a complete system, nor could you purchase an Intel CPU upgrade for an IBM system. (386DX, 132 pins. IBM 386SLC had 160 IIRC.)
Serious folks back then wanted IBM 386SLCs because they had vastly lower heat dissipation (2.5W @ 25MHz) and gobs of cache (386SLC packed up to 16KB!) which made them faster than equivalent and even greater clock 386DXes. But you couldn't get them. That advantage was somewhat reduced in the 486 era - the 486SLC was still using the 386SLC IP core. (Not to be confused with the IBM Blue Lightning family pre-Cyrix, which could be obtained commercially if you knew the right people, and was fantastic.)

Confused enough yet?

So. As I said: it's a 386 sans FPU. It's not an 80386.
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Offline ch_123

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 09:03:55 »
Definitely a M4-style keyboard, I think "rubber sleeve switch" was the term of choice around these parts a few years back. It feels like a high quality scissor switch board, although perhaps slightly stiffer than most scissor switch boards you'd find.

Quote
On another note, the mouse I use as my daily driver is an IBM TrackPoint L40, which is the mouse that was released with those laptops.

Indeed. Strangely enough, there was also an optional numpad which plugged into the same PS/2 port as for the mouse, so there was a PS/2 pass-through port on the numpad which allowed you to use the mouse and numpad at the same time off the one PS/2 port.

Quote
Is there a current key switch that is equivalent to the M4 style?

Not really. Rubber sleeves were relatively common on old laptop and even some old desktop keyboards, but I doubt you'd find many new implementations (Unicomp used to sell some M4s, but they ran out of stock a year or two ago). Scissor switches replaced them for all intents and purposes.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 September 2013, 09:11:49 by ch_123 »

Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 13:56:37 »
Quote
Is there a current key switch that is equivalent to the M4 style?
Not really. Rubber sleeves were relatively common on old laptop and even some old desktop keyboards, but I doubt you'd find many new implementations (Unicomp used to sell some M4s, but they ran out of stock a year or two ago). Scissor switches replaced them for all intents and purposes.

I'm sad now. I need a new keyboard to look forward to buying. Any suggestions? I'm a huge Topre fan, currently can't stop using the Realforce 87U 55g.

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 14:16:44 »
THOSE IBM PS/2 L40'S HAD THE SAME KEYBOARDS AS THE UNICOMP "MIGHTY MOUSE" M4'S.
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 14:49:34 »
THOSE IBM PS/2 L40'S HAD THE SAME KEYBOARDS AS THE UNICOMP "MIGHTY MOUSE" M4'S.

The ones with a trackpoint seem so convenient. Well, time to scour the internet in search of one.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 15:01:10 »
THOSE IBM PS/2 L40'S HAD THE SAME KEYBOARDS AS THE UNICOMP "MIGHTY MOUSE" M4'S.

The ones with a trackpoint seem so convenient. Well, time to scour the internet in search of one.

The Holy Grail of the trackpoint boards is and always will be the M13 and TrackPoint II. Buckling spring plus trackpoint == winning at life.

Though frankly if you're going to get the laptop version? Don't get an M4. They're overpriced every time I see them. Instead, get a $35 IBM 'desktop' version which is literally just a ThinkPad keyboard with TrackPoint III or IV. (Don't get the newest Lenovo one. It's got the cheap-as-hell Lenovo replacement junkboard, sadly.)
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Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 15:03:55 »
The ones with a trackpoint seem so convenient. Well, time to scour the internet in search of one.

The Holy Grail of the trackpoint boards is and always will be the M13 and TrackPoint II. Buckling spring plus trackpoint == winning at life.

Though frankly if you're going to get the laptop version? Don't get an M4. They're overpriced every time I see them. Instead, get a $35 IBM 'desktop' version which is literally just a ThinkPad keyboard with TrackPoint III or IV. (Don't get the newest Lenovo one. It's got the cheap-as-hell Lenovo replacement junkboard, sadly.)

Thanks for the suggestions. I will definitely look into those. And yea, the newer Lenovo keyboards do suck. Got a whole pile of them here at work and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Offline Folio

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 15:38:18 »
Has anyone bought from Unicomp recently? Seems like a very cheap price for the reputation of the keyboards they're selling. Is the quality ****? I've seen videos where people find small defects (if you can call it that) such as edges of keys being raggedy or the case having marks. Is this worth getting or would it just break after a month of use? Finding a true IBM M13 Trackpoint for sale is near impossible.

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 16:30:45 »
The 386SX was always sans-FPU. Period.

So was the 386DX. So SX does not indicate no FPU, as none had FPUs. But you could of course add an appropriate 387 FPU to either.

The ThinkPad L40 is equipped with, to quote the original sales brochure, "386SX(TM) processing power" but could be expanded to 18MB of DRAM. You can't do that on an Intel 386SX.

Nor a 386SLC. That extra 2MB of ram was only usable as EMS, not XMS.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 September 2013, 16:33:36 by polpo »
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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 17:28:52 »
Nor a 386SLC. That extra 2MB of ram was only usable as EMS, not XMS.

*sigh*

Why oh why are you not getting the message? That message being, "hey, rootwyrm knows this stuff because he was up to his eyeballs in it when it was new." Oh, and I guess you could include "rootwyrm has done this for a living for decades" and "rootwyrm worked on these when they were new" in there too.

I mean holy freaking crap, I have never seen someone so hellbent on demonstrating they never in their life were qualified to touch a jumper configured system. You don't even know the proper difference between EMS and XMS, and even less about OS/2 and large memory systems!

And seriously. What part of THE i386SX DOES NOT SUPPORT >16MB OF MEMORY PERIOD was unclear? The part where it IS CLEARLY DOCUMENTED BY INTEL SINCE INTRODUCTION or the part where it DOESN'T HAVE SUFFICIENT PINS TO DO IT? I mean, I do enjoy it when people who clearly have NO clue pretend they're expert PC builders with more experience than me, but seriously, this is just embarrassing to you at this point.

Here. I'll give you a free clue. The i386SX had how many address pins? This does what, hm?
Bonus question: what other common CMOS process 16/32-bit processor has identical memory limitations and does it in just 7 address registers? Hint: it's related to one we regularly talk about around here.
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Offline polpo

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 18:10:54 »
Here. I'll give you a free clue. The i386SX had how many address pins? This does what, hm?

24 pins, same as the 386SLC. The extra pins on the 386SLC were not address pins.

Also, lack of address pins does not preclude addressing extra memory. The 8086 only had 20 address pins and could make use of more than 1024KB using EMS.

Please refrain from personal attacks. You may be confusing me with someone else. I only just jumped into this conversation with my previous comment. And now I'm done.
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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 06 September 2013, 20:20:05 »
WHO CARES ABOUT 386'S ANYWAYS? I USE PENTIUM PROCESSORS NOW.
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Offline Hak Foo

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Re: Random encounter with an ancient IBM laptop. Questioning switch type.
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 07 September 2013, 00:22:51 »


The 386SX was always sans-FPU. Period. The whole POINT of the SX was "cost reduction" and part of that was no FPU, no cache. The 386DX was introduced after the SX to differentiated between which had a cache and standard FPU capability. (The SX uses a non-standard FPU in Intel land. Get to that in a minute.)

Yes, the SX was a cost-reduced part, but the narrative is inaccurate.

The original part was the 80386.  No SX, DX, etc.  This was later known as the 386DX.

The 386SX was introduced later as a cheap version, largely to kill the 286.  Thus the 24-bit address bus, 16-bit data bus which was easily adapted to 286 motherboard designs.

The 386SLC was a model designed for laptop use, based on the 386SX, but with some additions to enable lower-power operation-- it could be stepped down in clock easily.  The SLC also introduced some cache, as you mentioned.

The 386DX was generally sold as a socketed part-- although I've also seen soldered-on versions of some models, like the AMD DX/40, likely towards the end of the 386's mainstream life, when it was no longer worth it to be field reusable.  In contrast, the SX was almost always, if not always, a soldered-on part.

CPU form-factors were not nearly as standardized back then-- I've seen 80286s, for example, with a LGA-style "textool" socket, and some with a pins-on-the-edges socket.

If IBM made their own chips in major quantities, it sort of brings into question one of the great narratives of the x86 story.  AMD and friends were granted licenses to make x86 chips in large part because firms like IBM demanded a second-source for parts availability.
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