Filco tenkeyless with white Alps!

[bhtooefr]

You don't renew patents.

They're issued once, you get 20 years, and that's it. Then, the invention is in the public domain. That's the whole point of patents - legally protect an inventor from unauthorized use of the invention for 20 years, but then everyone gets to use the invention, not just people and companies to who, the inventor has granted a license.

There are ways to get around it - modify whatever it is very slightly, get a fresh patent, and then advertise the hell out of the new product (while slamming your own old product, because people are going to buy the now legal, and much cheaper, generic version of the old product instead of your version.) See: Claritin and Clarinex, Prilosec and Nexium.

[zwmalone]

My only question is why isn't anybody making keyboards (other than price of custom parts, but people would gladly pay the premium) with Buckling Springs other than Unicomp?

[bhtooefr]

Actually, there is a company making BS keyboards other than Unicomp, although with a slightly different design, as I understand. Ya Sheng/Sheng Ya (depending on where you look it up) has a Chinese patent on a BS design, IIRC from 1989 or so.

[Chloe]

I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.

[wellington1869]

My only question is why isn't anybody making keyboards (other than price of custom parts, but people would gladly pay the premium) with Buckling Springs other than Unicomp?

seriously.

[bhtooefr]

I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.

In every sense of the word, from what I've heard on here.

(I'd still like to get my hands on one, just to see just how bad it is.)

[wellington1869]

I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.

well thats why you dress the case up a bit (piano black finish with a red escape key?) and sell it for $150 each

[Chloe]

I think they'd need to work on the BS design a bit more, based on lam's review.

[xsphat]

I believe that was an attempt at a House of the Dead style typing game.

See zombie with letters, type letters, shoot zombie, I do believe.

It's a real game, a good buddy of mine has it. He sasys it's fun but he will never play it again.

[wellington1869]

so what would it take for a geekhack committee to submit a keyboard design to costar? Basically it would be something most of us seem to agree on: basic spacesaver with custom-selected switches, possibly in piano black with optional blank keys, with an optional red escape key (and comes shipped with a keypuller
We can specify the basic weight and density specs.
After all, the guy who launched that das keyboard company was just a regular programmer who came up with an idea and had one custom built and then OEM'ed the design out to costar.
That way we can have a basic spacesaver design with custom-selectable switches (which is what we all seem to want to be available out there).

[secularzarathustra]

with dip switches and true n-key rollover!

[wellington1869]

with dip switches and true n-key rollover!

exactly! now you're thinking

and detachable cable?

[iMav]

That way we can have a basic spacesaver design with custom-selectable switches (which is what we all seem to want to be available out there).

Seems to me that Diatec is already doing this for us.  

[Chloe]

I think this would cost alot more to OEM than legendless keycaps. I think the first DAS was rubber dome. Personally, I don't think buckling spring would feel right in any form other than the Model M. It's so big and clunky but all part of the feel.

[wellington1869]

Seems to me that Diatec is already doing this for us.  

no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!

[wellington1869]

I think this would cost alot more to OEM than legendless keycaps. .

it would be an "open source" design. Any OEM can manufacture it and keep the profits, we just want it (and its interchangeable parts) to be widely available (in the US and europe, and with ability to mix and match keys, keycaps, switches, pcb boards, cables, even outer casings).

[iMav]

no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!

At this point, I'm just happy such choice is available...at any cost.  

Buckling spring fans have Unicomp here in the US.  We have some limited choice from DSI and DataDesk.  But, for the most part, you have to order overseas to get new, quality keyboards.  (or find some NIB gems from eBay)

Unfortunately, most end-users have very mouse-heavy usage.  Which is probably why you can get some phenomenal mice...but the keyboard options are less than stellar.  

This is one reason why I think it is important for us to be as helpful as possible to other geekhack members.  I frequently send keyboard "stuff" I can get easily overseas to other geekhack members.  Anything I can do to put better quality keyboards in their hands is my pleasure.  We just needs more Japanese, Korean, etc members.  

[fkeidjn]

I think the problem is the unfortunate language barrier.  There may be people who do speak Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, but not much English, so they might be too shy because they're afraid that we might intimidate them.  Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[iMav]

Here is what beNippon has to say about the white Alps-equipped Filco mini:

Thank you for your request. This keyboard is currently in
closed-preorders. But we should be able to provide it after its
release, therefore could you come back around next week:
http://benippon.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=20371
(note that the price will most certainly be updated a bit)

And here is what they have to say regarding the blue Cherry-equipped Filco mini:

I am sorry, this model is not available for us.

[lowpoly]

After all, the guy who launched that das keyboard company was just a regular programmer who came up with an idea

This is how globalization works. Marketing is the important factor.

[xsphat]

no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!

It's better than switching to membrane keyboards though, now isn't it?

[xsphat]

I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.

[iMav]

I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.

I have requested estimates from J-Goods for both the blue Cherry and white Alps versions...but have not heard back yet.  Have you gotten a response from them?

[megarat]

Having just jumped into this thread for the first time, I have to say that's a super-sweet keyboard.  It looks like it doesn't have a built-in hub, which is important to me, but even so, it's still tempting.

I have no idea how I'm going to be able to save up for that tube amp if I keep reading this forum.

[bigpook]

I heard from Crescent-Shopping, the alps version is not available till 12/12. They are going to send me individual quotes for the blue and for the alps.
I should have them tomorrow.

[iMav]

I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.

J-Goods can get both keyboards (the white Alps and blue Cherries).

[bigpook]

J-Goods can get both keyboards (the white Alps and blue Cherries).

Whats the pricing from J-Goods?

[iMav]

Whats the pricing from J-Goods?

The blue Cherry 'board (FKBM87MC/EB) is 17,203 JPY, shipped.
The white Alps 'board (FKBM87Z/EB) is 13,147 JPY, shipped.
Both 'boards ordered together are 27,317 JPY, shipped.

[bigpook]

The blue Cherry 'board (FKBM87MC/EB) is 17,203 JPY, shipped.
The white Alps 'board (FKBM87Z/EB) is 13,147 JPY, shipped.
Both 'boards ordered together are 27,317 JPY, shipped.

Thanks for the info. Now which one should I pick? : )

[xsphat]

I have requested estimates from J-Goods for both the blue Cherry and white Alps versions...but have not heard back yet.  Have you gotten a response from them?

I can't afford this right now, but J-Goods was great to me in the past. The reason I would like to go through them is because I want to order all my accessories right away to.

[wellington1869]

Thanks for the info. Now which one should I pick? : )

Why, both of course!

[bigpook]

I heard back from crescent-shop
The blue cherry filco is 154.26 without shipping
The alps filco is 110.07 without shipping.

I ordered a filco mini from them a month or so ago and IIRC the shipping was around 40 dollars.

[bigpook]

I can't afford this right now, but J-Goods was great to me in the past. The reason I would like to go through them is because I want to order all my accessories right away to.

Do you have a link for j-goods? The one I googled does not have an english page.

[xsphat]

I went here and created an account and inquired about exactly what I wanted and links to them on I think Amazon.co.jp.

[xsphat]

It's in the wiki, jgoods

[bigpook]

It's in the wiki, jgoods

thanks!

[Bluemercury]

Might pull one for this later. i like my macally 96, but its way to crippled for my layout, and this is as close as i can get an alps switch keyboard and from filco which i dont have any....

[Chloe]

I found a close up of the XM switch (no internals), even with ALPS branding it could be simplified:
http://forum.talkdigi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1603

[xsphat]

The stem on it looks longer like the Alps whites in my MK96. That makes me even more into the idea of buying one of those.

[Chloe]

Do you think it's possible to tell by the stem length if they're real ALPS? The (real) ones I have protrude by 4mm. The keycaps were also nearly impossible to remove. I don't know if this is a feature with the simplified ALPS.

If you do get one, would you post pics of a switch taken apart for comparison? There might be something to this XM renaming.

[xsphat]

Do you think it's possible to tell by the stem length if they're real ALPS? The (real) ones I have protrude by 4mm. The keycaps were also nearly impossible to remove. I don't know if this is a feature with the simplified ALPS.

If you do get one, would you post pics of a switch taken apart for comparison? There might be something to this XM renaming.

Maybe. I only will if it feels / sounds different than the MK96, which I know has real Alps whites (I did a side-by-side comparison with my old Northgate — they are identical and both are more than ten years old).

[bigpook]

I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!

[fkeidjn]

I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!

That's cool.  Unfortunately for me, I won't be buying anything direct from Japan at this moment, due to the falling value of the US dollar against the Japanese Yen. Source.  I'll wait and see if anything pops up on GMarket.

[bigpook]

I was in Okinawa in the early 80's and IIRC it was 270 yen to the dollar. It was 800 won to the dollar in Korea.
I think its around 86 yen to the dollar now. So yeah, it kind of blows.

[wellington1869]

I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!

That is definitely very exciting news. Big splashy pics please! The rest of us will have to live vicariously off your good fortune

[bigpook]

That is definitely very exciting news. Big splashy pics please! The rest of us will have to live vicariously off your good fortune

Right : ) I am looking forward to it as from what I understand the white alp switches are somewhere between the cherry blue and BS keys. I am using cherry browns now and do like them. But I am looking for a little more key feel, and a little more noise. I am hoping the white alp switches give me that.

[wellington1869]

I am looking for a little more key feel, and a little more noise. I am hoping the white alp switches give me that.

I believe that is precisely what they will give you. I think you'll like them *a lot*.

In terms of resistance, alps definitely fall between BS and cherries. They're a nice middle ground actually.

In terms of sound, you can tune the sound of the alps quite a bit. There are of course non clicky alps (the blacks and gray alps) and alps with rubber dampers to even get rid of bottoming/topping clack (AEK II and SGI have them if you need donor boards). Best part is the guts between the diffferent switches are interchangeable and the alps switches open up so easily.

So its easy to stick with the basic alps switch and arrive at a sound level you like.

[bigpook]

I believe that is precisely what they will give you. I think you'll like them *a lot*.

In terms of resistance, alps definitely fall between BS and cherries. They're a nice middle ground actually.

In terms of sound, you can tune the sound of the alps quite a bit. There are of course non clicky alps (the blacks and gray alps) and alps with rubber dampers to even get rid of bottoming/topping clack (AEK II and SGI have them if you need donor boards). Best part is the guts between the diffferent switches are interchangeable and the alps switches open up so easily.

So its easy to stick with the basic alps switch and arrive at a sound level you like.

wow, thats trippy. Tuning keyboards.
I don't have any alps keyboards. I am assuming they are quality keys and will last a long time. The noise doesn't bother me though, I actually like it. I can't imagine wanting to silence it. Thats one of the things I like about the BS keyboards, the sound and the key feel are top notch. If only  I can get a BS keyswitch in a Filco mini......

[fkeidjn]

The problem is that you can only tune the Alps switch so much, that is, you can have the same exact switch on two different keyboard interior constructions, say the Northgate 101 (w/o Windows keys) vs the Northgate 101P (w/Windows keys).  The 101P sounded more hollow and bright in tone, while the 101 sounded more solid and darker in tone.  I also noticed the same thing when I took out the rubber damper on my SGI Granite and compared it with the Dell AT101W.  The Granite sounded more solid along the lines with the 101, while the AT101W sounded more hollow along the lines of the 101P.  You can also tell on a Unicomp (thin plastic) vs the original model M (thick plastic).  The overall sound quality therefore has to do the overall keyboard construction as well.

[Chloe]

I don't have any alps keyboards. I am assuming they are quality keys and will last a long time. The noise doesn't bother me though, I actually like it.

Clicky ALPS have a lifespan of 8-10 million key presses. For comparison, Cherry blues and browns are rated at 20 million. I find the case and keycaps really contribute to the sound.