Realforce vs Matias keyboards

[muwaji]

Hey, im currently looking to buy a new keyboard. I'm currently looking at these two, as i feel the brown tactile is abit "mushy" or not that crisp, if that explains it better. I currently own a FILCO ninja, with brown switches and i like it pretty much. I'm currently looking at the Realforce, and the Matias and im undecided which to buy. Both seem to be offering high quality keyboards, where all that matters is preference.

I like the brown switches even though, i would like something quite similiar to brown switches, but more crisper (i feel like the browns "tactile feel is really, really bad). I've tried reds previously, and i find myself bottoming out too much, making me get wrist pain due to pressuring too much. Which switch would fit me better? I mostly play games at my desktop computer, but occasionally programming when not at the university.

[DrinkTea]

I have both and I find them very different. The 45g Topres are similar weighted to the brown (maybe a little heaver) and nice and crisp and tactile. The matias (I have the 'quiet' version) feel stiffer, but very tactile. They remind me a bit of cherry clears but have a higher actuation point and are kind of "snappier" I guess? They feel like they drop more sharply. That's all I've got for now.

[Danule]

I dont know about matias. But topre will be mushyer than brown. But much smoother too.

[Hyde]

I have tried both also.

45g Topre is slighly heavier than MX Brown.  Though the tactile is a little bit different than the tactile on MX switches.  The tactile on Topre is kind of like a harder/springy rubber dome.

Matias dampened ALPS is a little bit heavier than 45g Topre, and is REALLY tactile, I'd say more so than MX Blue.

Though the tactility on ALPS is more at a tactile point, rest of the travel should feel linear.  Where as Topre is more like an gradual tactile.  So it's up to you, do you want sharp tactile or cushioned tactile.

Personally I like the Topre better, it just feels more "comfortable".  That being said Matias Quiet Pro is not a bad option either I just happen to like Topre slightly more. 

[saturnotaku]

A Matias Laptop Pro would look great with my Mac, but I wish it weren't Bluetooth.

[Linkbane]

Hey, im currently looking to buy a new keyboard. I'm currently looking at these two, as i feel the brown tactile is abit "mushy" or not that crisp, if that explains it better. I currently own a FILCO ninja, with brown switches and i like it pretty much. I'm currently looking at the Realforce, and the Matias and im undecided which to buy. Both seem to be offering high quality keyboards, where all that matters is preference.

I like the brown switches even though, i would like something quite similiar to brown switches, but more crisper (i feel like the browns "tactile feel is really, really bad). I've tried reds previously, and i find myself bottoming out too much, making me get wrist pain due to pressuring too much. Which switch would fit me better? I mostly play games at my desktop computer, but occasionally programming when not at the university.

It's kind of pointless for others to tell you that they like Topre, it's mushier than any tactile Cherry key. If you need sharper feedback, an ergo clear or blue might be good for you, or a Matias which is similar.

[daerid]

It's kind of pointless for others to tell you that they like Topre, it's mushier than any tactile Cherry key. If you need sharper feedback, an ergo clear or blue might be good for you, or a Matias which is similar.

Not entirely. The tactility of a Topre switch is quite distinct. Even though there's a softness to it, I wouldn't call it "mushy" by any stretch of the imagination. If he's never tried it, he might find that Topre, while unexpected, is exactly what he's looking for.

[Hyde]

It's kind of pointless for others to tell you that they like Topre, it's mushier than any tactile Cherry key. If you need sharper feedback, an ergo clear or blue might be good for you, or a Matias which is similar.

Not entirely. The tactility of a Topre switch is quite distinct. Even though there's a softness to it, I wouldn't call it "mushy" by any stretch of the imagination. If he's never tried it, he might find that Topre, while unexpected, is exactly what he's looking for.

Yeah like personally I find Topre more tactile than MX Brown, even though it's a bit different type of tactility.  And I've tried MX Brown, Red, Quiet ALPS, and Cherry ML before I bought my Topre.

Even then I still find Topre highly enjoyable.  It's my daily driver at the moment.

[Linkbane]

It's kind of pointless for others to tell you that they like Topre, it's mushier than any tactile Cherry key. If you need sharper feedback, an ergo clear or blue might be good for you, or a Matias which is similar.

Not entirely. The tactility of a Topre switch is quite distinct. Even though there's a softness to it, I wouldn't call it "mushy" by any stretch of the imagination. If he's never tried it, he might find that Topre, while unexpected, is exactly what he's looking for.

I think that nothing besides utter conviction that Topre is better than anything else would be the only thing that would make you think he would want a Topre after wanting tactility. A crisp rubber dome is more tactile than a Brown, so a Topre should be also. It may or may not be the kind of tactility he wants.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The Topre force curve is very rounded, which means that instead of a precise tactile "snap" point, your finger goes slow-motion over a rolling hill of tactility, like a sine wave, with a slow build up and a slow drop in force, in one long smooth motion. It's not the same mush of a normal rubber dome, but it does feel weird — it's a unique feeling.

Matias quiet switches have a sharp snap to them, yet in a gentle way: you get the precise tactile point without any jarring or undue exertion. As I've mentioned before, it's what MX brown should have been but never was. The down side is that they're a bit scratchy and juddery — probably means that Matias need a smoother plastic for the slider. They'd be better with some lube.

The two switches are nothing remotely like each other. Not even close. For me the big plus of Topre keyboards is that they look professional and smart, and they have standard key layouts. Though my boss did describe mine this morning as "noisy" and "looks like it's from the 70s", which is amusing. The lurid green function keys, red escape and lavender arrows on a black Realforce might not have helped its image any ... They just need to fix the horrible metallic silver LED legend label, which looks totally out of place.

[rowdy]

"your finger goes slow-motion over a rolling hill of tactility" - I like that

[Oobly]

I only have experience with Browns, stock Clears and 62g Ergo Clears. The Ergo Clears have a better tactile feel than browns, while still being light. Stock clears are quite a bit heavier than Browns, too heavy for my taste.

I would say to try 62g Ergo Clears and 45 Topre if you can find some. Downside (at least for me) of the Topre is that there are fewer mod options than MX and less after market keycaps. Downside of Ergo Clears is you have to buy the springs and mod normal Clears to get them.

I don't know much about the ALPS style switches at all.

For programming you may like the feel of Blue Cherry MX switches?

[Polymer]

The Topre force curve is very rounded, which means that instead of a precise tactile "snap" point, your finger goes slow-motion over a rolling hill of tactility, like a sine wave, with a slow build up and a slow drop in force, in one long smooth motion. It's not the same mush of a normal rubber dome, but it does feel weird — it's a unique feeling.

It isn't like that at all.  Topre requires all the force at the start and then it is a very fast drop off...It is exactly like a rubber dome because it is the rubber dome that is collapsing that creates that motion.

It will collapse and the force drops off almost until the bottom....It is also why Topre are so hard to stop from bottoming out..they're just not meant to...

It most definitely is not unique..

BTW, I'm not saying Topre switches are just rubber domes...I'm a bit Topre fan..but the tactile bump is all rubber dome....it is the other parts that give it the rest of how it feels...

[muwaji]

Wow thanks for all the replies, didn't think i would get this amount of replies! Thanks alot I've come to the conclusion that the matias keyboard will fit me the best after reading all your replies. It seems like the Topre would be for something inbetween, or something thats very hard to describe for most people. Yet, i'm not enough of a keyboard-enthuaist to spend THAT much on a keyboard when not knowing what i get, especially when being a uni student.

For people who suggested me to try blues, i've tried this and while i enjoy them, i hate the clicky sound they make. I'll go with the Matias, and if people are interested i'll be updating with what I thought of the keyboard.

And.. I think i'll be sticking here, seems like an amazing community.

[Linkbane]

For people who suggested me to try blues, i've tried this and while i enjoy them, i hate the clicky sound they make. I'll go with the Matias, and if people are interested i'll be updating with what I thought of the keyboard.

And.. I think i'll be sticking here, seems like an amazing community.

Tsk. But I suppose that it's relatable, mostly because it irritates others. The stronger tactility is better for my light typing, at any rate. But tactile keyboards are still very good, so good luck with your (silenced) Matias, tell us how you like it!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It isn't like that at all.  Topre requires all the force at the start and then it is a very fast drop off...It is exactly like a rubber dome because it is the rubber dome that is collapsing that creates that motion.

Well, see, there's the thing. What do rubber domes feel like? You will find that standard membrane rubber dome keyboards have a wide variety of force curves. Some are exceptionally sharp and tactile, and others are so limp that you can almost mistake them for linear. The feel of a rubber dome keyboard differs considerably depending on the shape and material of the dome, with a wide range of weights and tactility levels. That's part of the problem: the complete lack of consistency in feel, unlike with Cherry/Alps/Matias etc where the switches are a standard part that will feel similar in any keyboard you buy.

The "rolling hill" was an allusion to the force curve of Topre domes, which is almost a sine wave. It struck me the other day how rounded and elongated the tactile point is — you'll notice it more if you compare it with other switches.

I was using some nice Kensington Pro Fit wireless keyboards earlier that actually felt a lot better than Topre — the tactile point was flawless (short and crisp but precisely rounded) with a soft feel. In fact, these Kensington keyboards felt like what the Matias switch is trying to be, i.e. without all the juddering. Lighter in weight — more like 40 g. No opportunity to pop a cap or anything.

[Polymer]

Ok..so granted that rubber domes can all feel different depending on their resistance...but forgetting about 30g type Topre which is most definitely mushy...45/55g Topre domes collapse like a typical rubber dome collapse at a similar level of resistance.  The tactile point is not a long elongated one at all...You're associating what you think you're seeing in a graph w/ how it feels and coming to an incorrect conclusion..

When a human actually presses with enough force to collapse the dome (top of the wave) and the force drops, you'll quickly travel the distance necessary to bottom out the key because there isn't sufficient resistance left in the dome to prevent it and your fingers have pressed sufficiently hard to hit that point.  It IS possible to not bottom out but exceedingly difficult.  Does the Topre maybe do it with a bit more force left in there than a typical rubber dome?  Maybe..maybe the spring helps..maybe the design of their rubber dome is slightly different and it allows for a slightly smoother curve than a cheaper rubber dome...but is it really that different?  No...you still get that feeling of it collapsing..

BTW, I'm not complaining about Topre..I'm a fan when it comes to typing....There is a lot more to the actual switch itself but at the same time I know the main tactile portion of that switch is a rubber dome. 

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not at all. Dome feeling is nothing to do with weight, but with the design and construction of the domes. The Kensington Fit Pro domes are extremely light, but also very tactile, far more so than than any Topre switch — imagine if Topre 35 g domes had the same tactile sharpness of a good 60 g dome. The difference is very apparent. They're a lot like Matias switches, but lighter and smoother, and of course you don't get the damped upstroke. I did find that the upstroke noise was typically cheap-sounding, instead of the more melodious tone of a Topre.

I've been using MX brown for months, and I figured I'd go back to Topre for a bit, which I've been using for a month or so now. I've been continually feeling that there is something "off" about the feel — overcoming the tactile point on Topre switches takes a lot longer than with a more conventional high tactile dome. The force graph is correct: instead of a sharp tactile "snap", it's a long curve, where the force peaks slowly and then falls slowly.

Switch graphs actually are how switches feel, by definition. I was unsurprised for example to find that the graph for black complicated Alps looks exactly how it feels. I'm not saying that Topre domes are a slow ride all the way to the bottom of the tactile trough, but rather than the peak is sine wave–shaped instead of a sharp point, and you really feel this difference. You still get the sharp drop-off when you pass over the slow curve, but the tactility is very different to that of other domes or with metal contact switches.

[Thimplum]

The tactility of Topre isn't really something that should be called mushy. I'd say... soft )

The Matias Alps boards will be a lot snappier though.

[Polymer]

Switch graphs actually are how switches feel, by definition. I was unsurprised for example to find that the graph for black complicated Alps looks exactly how it feels. I'm not saying that Topre domes are a slow ride all the way to the bottom of the tactile trough, but rather than the peak is sine wave–shaped instead of a sharp point, and you really feel this difference. You still get the sharp drop-off when you pass over the slow curve, but the tactility is very different to that of other domes or with metal contact switches.

No..Force graphs are measured by a machine to determine what the resistance at each point along the travel of a key....That isn't the same as what people perceive is going on or how it feels. 

You're even saying that...you're not saying Topre Domes feel like a slow ride to the bottom..but that is what you're saying it should feel like based on the curve...

And I don't agree that the tactility is different than most rubber domes..it is basically identical to most rubber domes..that is why so many people that haven't used them for a long time don't see a difference between the two.  Maybe it has more resistance here or there but essentially, the basic feel is the same...If it wasn't, people really wouldn't be making the comparison right?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Topre switches cannot by definition be identical to a range of different things. There is no single "rubber dome feel" — rubber dome keyboards feel vastly different from each other. Yes, they all feel smooth and even "rubbery", but that's where it ends. The "basic feel" is about as useful a comparison as saying that metal contact switches (Cherry, Futaba, SMK, Alps, Omron, KPT, Xiang Min etc) all have the same "basic feel". The key to quality is discernment and refinement instead of broadly lumping things together.

[Polymer]

You're being rather pedantic about comparing feel...

Honestly, to say Topre doesn't have a very similar feel from tactile standpoint as normal rubber domes is completely ingenuous....

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You're being rather pedantic about comparing feel...

Mate, if you consider differentiating Topre from cheap domes to be pedantry, you're in the wrong forum.

[Polymer]

Read any Topre thread...

You have half the people that dislike Topre that think they're just like any rubber dome. 

The other half like Topre.

Out of those, a good chunk admit there are strong similarities with normal rubber dome, but there are a lot of things that separate it from a normal rubber dome keyboard but they're all parts that have nothing to do with the rubber dome.  The rubber dome collapse IS what people admit is similar to normal rubber dome keyboards...

Then there are some people like you who seem to think they're nothing alike...that the rubber dome in a Topre switch is completely different and collapses in a completely different way....  So what was that?

[Photoelectric]

I find it so interesting to read everyone's opinions on Browns, Clears, and ergo-Clears and compare them to my own, because in many cases, my impression is not the same.  For example, I've never considered Browns "mushy" or "dirty Reds" or anything of the sort.  Browns are Browns, and when you get a nice smooth broken-in variety (or maybe lube your Browns), they have a distinct light feel with some bump-friction to give tactility.  They feel light and "airy" to me.  I used to compare them to getting a finger massage while typing.  I don't think they are like Reds with friction or any of that.  Likewise, I don't like ergo-Clears, because the bump is too long to overcome, and bottoming out is easier.  Ergo-Clears are just wobbly and awkward to type on for me--they slow me down.  Stock Clears are "faster", and I can stop just past the actuation point, thanks to the steep force curve of the stock springs.  So for me, stock Clears are easier on hands than ergo-Clears.

With that said, it makes comparisons between Cherry switches and Quiet Pro or Topre very difficult.  I can read their descriptions all day long, but in the end--it's probably going to be a very individual experience and interpretation.  Even in this thread, people argue about proper descriptions of these switches.  I'm sufficiently intrigued to try both, Matias keyboards and something Topre.

Though I do wonder: why are Alps not utilized as widely as Cherry switches in modern keyboards?  For example, Filco did a Zero model, which was a limited run... and that's that.  Ducky had a very budget low quality Alps-clone series that also seems to have been discontinued.  And the only other well known company that makes modern-style Alps keyboards seems to be Matias (unless I'm missing more out of ignorance--quite possible).  By all accounts, Alps switches seem to be interesting and have varieties that should appeal to the general typist population.  Why are we limited to Matias or vintage boards?  (or rare Korean customs with Alps switches).

[Linkbane]

@Photoelectric
Probably because ALPS went out of business a while ago. Their switches seem to be great, but perhaps the Cherry war machine was just too much to handle, as ALPS, as far as I know, didn't make their own keyboards, and certainly not to the same extent that Cherry did. I really want to try an ALPS complicated blue.

I agree with your Brown description. I tried them for a bit and they had a very smooth bump, noticeable to a light touch like mine and enough to stop me; I think that I'd probably like it almost as much as Blues. Definitely not a dirty linear in anything but color. 

[Photoelectric]

Ah, I suspected that might be the case.  So it's risky for other manufacturers to begin producing Alps clones, because they'd have to establish their spot in the keyboard manufacturing community, and supply / demand are uncertain vs. Cherry's stable long-term business, where switch popularity has been established by now.

[Linkbane]

Ah, I suspected that might be the case.  So it's risky for other manufacturers to begin producing Alps clones, because they'd have to establish their spot in the keyboard manufacturing community, and supply / demand are uncertain vs. Cherry's stable long-term business, where switch popularity has been established by now.

You hit the Blue on the click, exactly. Some could produce clones, but they're 'complicated' for a reason and are more difficult to build than the incredibly simple Cherry design. Plus, it's not likely that anyone would buy them. However, there are apparently a few ALPS clones (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:Clones_of_Alps_CM_switches), but they're not as prolific as Cherry and many have faded into obscurity. Matias is the only well-known, reputable ALPS clone creator.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

@Photoelectric
Probably because ALPS went out of business a while ago

That's news to me! Alps are still in business, but they left the keyswitch market a few years back. Ownership of the Alps tooling and production was handed over to long-time business partner Forward Electronics, who finally closed down keyswitch production in early 2012.

I've never seen a clone that could be classed as "complicated" — all known clones are "simplified", although it's worth pointing that simplified Alps and clones have around the same number of parts per switch as any Cherry mechanical switch, SMK, Omron and various other companies. Alps were one of the few companies that made something a lot more intricate; another one was Futaba, with the current record of 16 parts per switch including a sealed switching unit inside the switch (yo dawg …)

Current clone series still in production: Xiang Min KSB and KSBF, Hua-Jie AK, Matias, Tai-Hao APC, and possibly "YH-B", whatever those are. It's alleged that Datacomp have an Alps clone line out that was shown at a trade fair, but I've not managed to get any proof of it.

[Linkbane]

@Photoelectric
Probably because ALPS went out of business a while ago

That's news to me! Alps are still in business, but they left the keyswitch market a few years back. Ownership of the Alps tooling and production was handed over to long-time business partner Forward Electronics, who finally closed down keyswitch production in early 2012.

I've never seen a clone that could be classed as "complicated" — all known clones are "simplified", although it's worth pointing that simplified Alps and clones have around the same number of parts per switch as any Cherry mechanical switch, SMK, Omron and various other companies. Alps were one of the few companies that made something a lot more intricate; another one was Futaba, with the current record of 16 parts per switch including a sealed switching unit inside the switch (yo dawg …)

Current clone series still in production: Xiang Min KSB and KSBF, Hua-Jie AK, Matias, Tai-Hao APC, and possibly "YH-B", whatever those are. It's alleged that Datacomp have an Alps clone line out that was shown at a trade fair, but I've not managed to get any proof of it.

Oh, didn't know that. All I knew was that ALPS stopped producing their keys.
Right, and I was saying complications were why some didn't attempt to make complicated clones, which I haven't heard of. Even Matias is simplified, sadly.

Yo dawg, I heard you like switches..

[Photoelectric]

@Photoelectric
Probably because ALPS went out of business a while ago

That's news to me! Alps are still in business, but they left the keyswitch market a few years back. Ownership of the Alps tooling and production was handed over to long-time business partner Forward Electronics, who finally closed down keyswitch production in early 2012.

I've never seen a clone that could be classed as "complicated" — all known clones are "simplified", although it's worth pointing that simplified Alps and clones have around the same number of parts per switch as any Cherry mechanical switch, SMK, Omron and various other companies. Alps were one of the few companies that made something a lot more intricate; another one was Futaba, with the current record of 16 parts per switch including a sealed switching unit inside the switch (yo dawg …)

Current clone series still in production: Xiang Min KSB and KSBF, Hua-Jie AK, Matias, Tai-Hao APC, and possibly "YH-B", whatever those are. It's alleged that Datacomp have an Alps clone line out that was shown at a trade fair, but I've not managed to get any proof of it.

Tai-Hao APC--is that the same Tai Hao that made colorful doubleshot ABS Cherry caps sets for a current group buy here?  That's interesting they make Cherry caps but Alps switches.  Does this mean they can also make Alps caps?..  in theory?  Would be amazing news for those with Alps keyboards if so.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Taiwan_Tai-Hao

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Same company, yes.

"APC" is the sub-brand for their Alps switches, I think, like Filco is to Diatec.

[Photoelectric]

So considering they've sold $9 full Cherry sets here, perhaps they could be asked to make some Alps sets?  Just mentioning it because of the lack of modern Alps keycap sets.  There's an ongoing interest check thread for a blue/gray Alps set made by SP, but it's been stalling.  Tai Hao seem to be receptive to some customization, as they agreed to make a standard 6.25x spacebar, whereas initially they only made 5x and 7x when the Cherry cap group buy started.

Anyway, this is a complete diversion from the topic of this thread.  Just thought it was an interesting possibility.