[GB] Ergodox PCB in Europe - 25€ each [Complete]

[czarek]

For last couple of weeks I was looking for a cheap and reliable source for Ergodox PCBs in Europe as importing from mechanicalkeyboards.com will be just too expensive (pretty much double the initial cost).
I found out a company locally that agreed to make the PCBs for: 25€ each set (left + right side).
Minimum order is 20 sets. It will be 1.55 mm thick PCB (they do all ranges from 0.1 up to 3.0 mm, I measured PCB of G80-2500 as a reference) with thick copper, black soldermask and white labels.
It will take them 16-24 days to produce the small batch.
Also for those interested in this PCB I can also cut the 2 piece PVC case for 50€ so you save on shipping and get a nice case

[Signature]

For last couple of weeks I was looking for a cheap and reliable source for Ergodox PCBs in Europe as importing from mechanicalkeyboards.com will be just too expensive (pretty much double the initial cost).
I found out a company locally that agreed to make the PCBs for: 25€ each set (left + right side).
Minimum order is 20 sets. It will be 1.55 mm thick PCB (they do all ranges from 0.1 up to 3.0 mm, I measured PCB of G80-2500 as a reference) with thick copper, black soldermask and white labels.
It will take them 16-24 days to produce the small batch.
Also for those interested in this PCB I can also cut the 2 piece PVC case for 50€ so you save on shipping and get a nice case

Sounds interesting! Where do we get the case though?

[Hzza]

I'd be in for a set pf PCBs and a case for sure.

What else would we need to source to get a full Ergodox up and running? Teensy, switches, diodes and something to connect the 2 halves I guess.

[czarek]

I'd be in for a set pf PCBs and a case for sure.

What else would we need to source to get a full Ergodox up and running? Teensy, switches, diodes and something to connect the 2 halves I guess.

I'm on it. I'm trying to get cheap and reliable sources for all electronic components locally, although some will have to be imported (Teensy, MX Switches, keycaps).
The goal is to have similar kit as the one on Massdrop for less, available without the silly wait and with option to get the keyboard fully assembled in either PVC or Aluminium case. I can't say anything about pricing yet but I can tell you I won't be making any money on it.
This 25€ for PCBs is only so low because I can go and pick it up from the factory without paying for shipping, otherwise the price would be 1-2€ more on each set.
The only money I may be making is on cases but it's hard to say really as the material is not really that cheap, I need to replace bits pretty much for every case to get nice finish and I have to spend some time (3 hours per one PVC case set to be precise) with the machines to cut them. I don't even count lease for the machine and the energy costs so you see I'm not trying to get rich on community. It's rather opposite. I like the ErgoDox very much and I'm pissed off by massdrop. I believe there is more people like me and I want them all to enjoy their ErgoDoxes That's also the reason I share my case designs on GitHub so anyone who has access to CNC machines can cut their own cases for themselves or even sell them to make money - I don't care.

[jdcarpe]

Can we 'Muricans get in on this 50€ PVC case action?

[czarek]

Sounds interesting! Where do we get the case though?

I cut the cases myself so can pretty much send the cases and PCBs in one package which means saving on shipping

[Hzza]

Sounds amazing, especially if you can get some caps as well. Count me super in now!

[czarek]

Can we 'Muricans get in on this 50€ PVC case action?

Sure just keep in mind shipping to US will not be cheap, you may also need to pay some import duties.

[jdcarpe]

Can we 'Muricans get in on this 50€ PVC case action?

Sure just keep in mind shipping to US will not be cheap

Nothing worthwhile ever is.

you may also need to pay some import duties.

Luckily, we don't have to pay ridiculous taxes on personal purchases coming from overseas like you Europeans do. I feel bad that you are taxed to death over there.

[kzhk]

I was also looking into making a smalldrop ergodox kit group buy for Europe, for same reasons as yourself : I missed last Massdrop and I don't want to wait several months. Also as you said, shipping to Europe every part of the kit will double the price, so it is not interesting to do it alone. But if we find 10+ people for a group buy in Europe, the 200€ or so incoming shipping cost becomes less than 20€.

PCB can be bought from your manufacturer, but a group buy from mechanicalkeyboards.com would do it also, shipping cost is reasonable if shared between 10+.

The electronics (diodes, connectors...) is available for 18€ from digi-key (+ tax) , free shipping if we reach 65€ (4 kits required).

Tensy 2.0 shipping is quite expensive with insurance from the manufacturer (pjrc.com). Here is an estimate :
Air Mail    1-3 weeks    $ 14.67   Air mail delivery may be delayed in customs or transit. Unlike UPS, there is nobody who can find your package if it does not arrive on time. Because of the risk, please do not select Air Mail for orders over $200.
UPS Expedited    3-5 days    $ 72.82    UPS Exedited Worldwide. UPS will use a broker to clear customs quickly, and this can result in an additional fee due when the package is delivered.
But there is a few local distributors http://forum.pjrc.com/threads/23601-Official-Distributors

The cables are easy to find.

I already got the key switches from http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Remains the problem of the keycaps...

So I'm definitely in for one pair of PCB (perhaps 2), and I'm ready to help to group the rest of the needed material. Also I'm in France and I volunteer to proxy for France if there is other buyers.

[Signature]

I was also looking into making a smalldrop ergodox kit group buy for Europe, for same reasons as yourself : I missed last Massdrop and I don't want to wait several months. Also as you said, shipping to Europe every part of the kit will double the price, so it is not interesting to do it alone. But if we find 10+ people for a group buy in Europe, the 200€ or so incoming shipping cost becomes less than 20€.

PCB can be bought from your manufacturer, but a group buy from mechanicalkeyboards.com would do it also, shipping cost is reasonable if shared between 10+.

The electronics (diodes, connectors...) is available for 18€ from digi-key (+ tax) , free shipping if we reach 65€ (4 kits required).

Tensy 2.0 shipping is quite expensive with insurance from the manufacturer (pjrc.com). Here is an estimate :
Air Mail    1-3 weeks    $ 14.67   Air mail delivery may be delayed in customs or transit. Unlike UPS, there is nobody who can find your package if it does not arrive on time. Because of the risk, please do not select Air Mail for orders over $200.
UPS Expedited    3-5 days    $ 72.82    UPS Exedited Worldwide. UPS will use a broker to clear customs quickly, and this can result in an additional fee due when the package is delivered.
But there is a few local distributors http://forum.pjrc.com/threads/23601-Official-Distributors

The cables are easy to find.

I already got the key switches from http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Remains the problem of the keycaps...

Maybe some of the vendors can offer a ergodox keycap set?

[czarek]

I was also looking into making a smalldrop ergodox kit group buy for Europe, for same reasons as yourself : I missed last Massdrop and I don't want to wait several months. Also as you said, shipping to Europe every part of the kit will double the price, so it is not interesting to do it alone. But if we find 10+ people for a group buy in Europe, the 200€ or so incoming shipping cost becomes less than 20€.

PCB can be bought from your manufacturer, but a group buy from mechanicalkeyboards.com would do it also, shipping cost is reasonable if shared between 10+.

The electronics (diodes, connectors...) is available for 18€ from digi-key (+ tax) , free shipping if we reach 65€ (4 kits required).

Tensy 2.0 shipping is quite expensive with insurance from the manufacturer (pjrc.com). Here is an estimate :
Air Mail    1-3 weeks    $ 14.67   Air mail delivery may be delayed in customs or transit. Unlike UPS, there is nobody who can find your package if it does not arrive on time. Because of the risk, please do not select Air Mail for orders over $200.
UPS Expedited    3-5 days    $ 72.82    UPS Exedited Worldwide. UPS will use a broker to clear customs quickly, and this can result in an additional fee due when the package is delivered.
But there is a few local distributors http://forum.pjrc.com/threads/23601-Official-Distributors

The cables are easy to find.

I already got the key switches from http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Remains the problem of the keycaps...

Well the electronics are dirt cheap locally, I think I could get them for less that 18€ from local stores without paying for shipping.
Teensy indeed is major cost, so are the MX Switches, we could get them from 7 bit from Deskthority. He sells them for 0.65€ and I think that's a very good price.
As for keycaps, the first idea that comes to mind is Signature Plastics. I ordered their DSA caps recently, will see how is the quality. They have the mould to do all required caps so it shouldn't be a big deal if we order batches of 20-40 sets to make them for reasonable price. But I want to see their caps first as I don't want to offer crap to others.

[jdcarpe]

If you guys need Teensys, and if there are orders for 100 pcs of them, I can get them cheaper for you, and also I can mail them cheaper as well, to one proxy in Europe. I can provide you with header pins, you will only have to solder them onto the Teensy yourself.

Edit: Even at 25 pcs, I can get them cheaper than if you order them one at a time.

[Neal]

I'm likely to be interested in this, no idea if I'll like layout. But always wanted to build one.

[kzhk]

Well the electronics are dirt cheap locally, I think I could get them for less that 18€ from local stores without paying for shipping.

Good ! I looked at digi-key because it is what is listed on ergodox.org...

Do you intend to offer to group everything needed for the kit, or would you rather care only about the PCB (and case) ?
EDIT: you already answered that and I missed it...

The goal is to have similar kit as the one on Massdrop for less, available without the silly wait and with option to get the keyboard fully assembled in either PVC or Aluminium case. I can't say anything about pricing yet but I can tell you I won't be making any money on it.

[Signature]

Well i´m interested though in a full ergodox kit!

[komar007]

I'm totally interested.
I don't want to mess with your way of organizing this, but I think ordering PCBs in Poland is just too expensive.
I don't know what quantities we're talking about here, but I think at 100 boards (50 sets) we could get high-quality boards in China for about 15 eur incl. vat & shipping.
As for parts, local is a good idea, of course. We have tme, farnell and what not.
Anyway, count me in.

[regack]

Can we 'Muricans get in on this 50€ PVC case action?

Sure just keep in mind shipping to US will not be cheap

Nothing worthwhile ever is.

Oh, I would like to ride on this as well, if we're bringing some back across the pond.

[doub]

If you want to save some money on the PCBs, you should make them in China. The OSHW community I frequent (dangerousprototypes.com) has given positive feedback about this website:

http://smart-prototyping.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=142

As an example, I asked for 50 pieces (ie. 25 sets) of 20cm x 20cm double sided 1.6mm (that's standard PCB thickness) with black soldermask, and the quote is $264.31, or $10.50 per set, which is significatively cheaper than the $25 you were quoted. Even with shipping you might save a lot.

[wtzll]

Awesome! Where do i sign up?

[czarek]

This Chinese prototyping seems really cool. Do you know similar companies that do CNC machining in Aluminium / Plastics? Or maybe we could go ahead for the moulded ABS case? I guess with that the initial cost could be high but then the more cases we order, the cheaper it gets.

[AKmalamute]

Not in euroupe, but good luck with this GB. I might get a case, depending ...

But I'm also trying to get a friend to bug his dad, who works at a local machine shop, to get me quotes for steel ergodox cases (I will create an IC thread if it looks vaguely promising.)

[doub]

This Chinese prototyping seems really cool. Do you know similar companies that do CNC machining in Aluminium / Plastics? Or maybe we could go ahead for the moulded ABS case? I guess with that the initial cost could be high but then the more cases we order, the cheaper it gets.

Smart-prototyping does some mechanical prototyping too:

http://smart-prototyping.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_61

But I've never used it or even read any feedback, so I wouldn't vouch for that.

[boost]

Can we 'Muricans get in on this 50€ PVC case action?

can I join you on this?

[jdcarpe]

I am happy to proxy any cases for US members.

[kzhk]

Smart-prototyping does some mechanical prototyping too:

http://smart-prototyping.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_61

But I've never used it or even read any feedback, so I wouldn't vouch for that.

They propose anodized finishing, that would be so cool !...

[czarek]

On a second thought I'm not really sure about those Chinese manufacturers. I know there is many of them but this is pretty much what Massdrop uses and they are a living proof of how reliable those factories are. As for this company in Olsztyn, Poland I can assure you they do quality stuff as my brother used to work for them for a while.
The aluminium cases are tempting though as machining in Europe is very expensive and with my machine it's just not cost effective as I'd have to spend whole day making one set of cases (left + right), or hire someone to do that, but you know what the cost would be, just basically not worth it.
But there is a question about the quality of the machining Chinese factory does. I clearly see what comes out from my mill. If the result is not right I do it again, slower, or improve the toolpaths or do some sanding by hand, until I get the satisfactory result.
I have plans to get another stronger machine to do a metal parts but I won't be able to afford it until about Feb - March next year. Until then I can happily do PVC cases.

[hoggy]

I'm up for supporting this one!

Perhaps Sleabo (Qwerkeys) can help us out with the keycaps.

[davkol]

Interested in everything but metal case. Will ask friends to get more people in.

[jdcarpe]

On a second thought I'm not really sure about those Chinese manufacturers. I know there is many of them but this is pretty much what Massdrop uses and they are a living proof of how reliable those factories are. As for this company in Olsztyn, Poland I can assure you they do quality stuff as my brother used to work for them for a while.
The aluminium cases are tempting though as machining in Europe is very expensive and with my machine it's just not cost effective as I'd have to spend whole day making one set of cases (left + right), or hire someone to do that, but you know what the cost would be, just basically not worth it.
But there is a question about the quality of the machining Chinese factory does. I clearly see what comes out from my mill. If the result is not right I do it again, slower, or improve the toolpaths or do some sanding by hand, until I get the satisfactory result.
I have plans to get another stronger machine to do a metal parts but I won't be able to afford it until about Feb - March next year. Until then I can happily do PVC cases.

This is true, but you probably want to have your PCBs made in China. They have proven to be reliable, and affordable!

[davkol]

On a second thought I'm not really sure about those Chinese manufacturers. I know there is many of them but this is pretty much what Massdrop uses and they are a living proof of how reliable those factories are. As for this company in Olsztyn, Poland I can assure you they do quality stuff as my brother used to work for them for a while.
The aluminium cases are tempting though as machining in Europe is very expensive and with my machine it's just not cost effective as I'd have to spend whole day making one set of cases (left + right), or hire someone to do that, but you know what the cost would be, just basically not worth it.
But there is a question about the quality of the machining Chinese factory does. I clearly see what comes out from my mill. If the result is not right I do it again, slower, or improve the toolpaths or do some sanding by hand, until I get the satisfactory result.
I have plans to get another stronger machine to do a metal parts but I won't be able to afford it until about Feb - March next year. Until then I can happily do PVC cases.

This is true, but you probably want to have your PCBs made in China. They have proven to be reliable, and affordable!

They took our job!

[czarek]

I'm good with either, if you say those Chinese are good and reliable I'm always up for saving some buck.
Does any of you have some experience organising group buys? How do I set it up in google docs so everyone interested can submit?
Would be great to get 50+ people on this one, the more the merrier (and cheaper to ship from the Middle Kingdom)

[komar007]

Using google forms sucks:/
But I remember a discussion on GH about some groupbuy software someone was writing. Maybe you can use it already...

[davkol]

Etherpad? I've used it for organizing some events, and it wasn't bad.

[czarek]

Guys, I'm going to order those locally as I don't have experience working with Chinese factories, I don't know their minimum order quantities and I have no idea how long will I have to wait for the order to be delivered. Here I can go and talk to the guys any time I want. I pick up the PCBs directly from their office and if anything is wrong I can just refuse to pay them (payment is pretty much cash on collection).
For this order the price will be 25€ each and the first batch (40 pieces) should be ready in 4 weeks. I will be offering them in classifieds on this forum and Deskthority. When the first batch sells, I'll order another one and so on. Price may be lower for the next orders although I can't promise that. It all depends on the factory guys.

[Signature]

Guys, I'm going to order those locally as I don't have experience working with Chinese factories, I don't know their minimum order quantities and I have no idea how long will I have to wait for the order to be delivered. Here I can go and talk to the guys any time I want. I pick up the PCBs directly from their office and if anything is wrong I can just refuse to pay them (payment is pretty much cash on collection).
For this order the price will be 25€ each and the first batch (40 pieces) should be ready in 4 weeks. I will be offering them in classifieds on this forum and Deskthority. When the first batch sells, I'll order another one and so on. Price may be lower for the next orders although I can't promise that. It all depends on the factory guys.

Ok so this GB is no longer for the case?

[czarek]

This is for the PCB, I'll be making cases myself, and you will have an option to add a case to the order for PCB. I'm not making cases yet (apart from prototypes) as I'm not sure how it fits the whole kit and I don't want to sell them to anyone to find out it just doesn't work...

[davkol]

What about the teensy?

[bvtton]

 in for a set ( PCB+case)

[kzhk]

A possible source for key caps : http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO_.28ErgoDox_kit_.7C_.2459.29. Deadline for command : 2013-11-30

[komar007]

Also this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49634.0

[AKmalamute]

I'm getting my caps from the Calm Depths series ... but that's GB is in production so no getting in now.

I'd like to update folks stateside about my claim to get stainless steel cases ... the contact I have says they can't make heads or tails of the .dxf files* ... result is they could recreate it from scratch for me, at something like $100/hr to the CAD engineer.

 So, that's out. I'm going to look around a bit in other places but I think it's not happening :cry:

*well, no they can see the nifty lines going everywhere. There's just no units so no possible way to program their machines to cut it without starting over with a program their machines like.

[czarek]

AKmalamute if you know someone with appropriate machines and can afford it why not use my unibody or 2 piece design to cut it out of stainless steel?
They're already drawn in CAD/CAM package (CamBam) and all you need to do for steel is change the paths slightly (change feed and plunge rates) and maybe do some adjustments for the machines that will be used.
And as for PCBs, I have already paid for the order and now I'm just waiting for the package to arrive. It should be here in 4 weeks or so.

[komar007]

AKmalamute if you know someone with appropriate machines and can afford it why not use my unibody or 2 piece design to cut it out of stainless steel?
They're already drawn in CAD/CAM package (CamBam) and all you need to do for steel is change the paths slightly (change feed and plunge rates) and maybe do some adjustments for the machines that will be used.
And as for PCBs, I have already paid for the order and now I'm just waiting for the package to arrive. It should be here in 4 weeks or so.

Great! I'll be in for one set.

[kzhk]

Why is it written [In Production] ? My understanding was that the list of possible component and manufacturer was not even ready yet, and that the orders/payments haven't really started (this thread being to check how many people are interested)... Did I missed something ?

[Signature]

Why is it written [In Production] ? My understanding was that the list of possible component and manufacturer was not even ready yet, and that the orders/payments haven't really started (this thread being to check how many people are interested)... Did I missed something ?

Guys, I'm going to order those locally as I don't have experience working with Chinese factories, I don't know their minimum order quantities and I have no idea how long will I have to wait for the order to be delivered. Here I can go and talk to the guys any time I want. I pick up the PCBs directly from their office and if anything is wrong I can just refuse to pay them (payment is pretty much cash on collection).
For this order the price will be 25€ each and the first batch (40 pieces) should be ready in 4 weeks. I will be offering them in classifieds on this forum and Deskthority. When the first batch sells, I'll order another one and so on. Price may be lower for the next orders although I can't promise that. It all depends on the factory guys.

Right here!

[kzhk]

Ah ok, I must learn to read...

czarek: Do you consider answers in this thread as preorder ? I would hate to miss the first batch when you open real orders...

Also what is the situation for the rest of the components ? Are you going to propose the cases and the other components at the same time as the first PCBs batch ?

Anyway thanks for doing it...

[czarek]

I'm going to offer those PCBs in classifieds but people that have put interest in this thread will have priority in case of bigger demand. I have done nothing about teensy yet, but the cases and other electronics will be ready to order with the PCBs. I am not cutting cases yet as I need to see them fit the rest of the keyboard. I have few protoypes that i will be offering at discounted price, although no warranty of fit and quality - means you may need to tweak them with dremel

Also when the stock of PCBs will run low I'll order another batch.

[CalmB4tehPwn]

I'm getting my caps from the Calm Depths series ... but that's GB is in production so no getting in now.

I'd like to update folks stateside about my claim to get stainless steel cases ... the contact I have says they can't make heads or tails of the .dxf files* ... result is they could recreate it from scratch for me, at something like $100/hr to the CAD engineer.

 So, that's out. I'm going to look around a bit in other places but I think it's not happening :cry:

*well, no they can see the nifty lines going everywhere. There's just no units so no possible way to program their machines to cut it without starting over with a program their machines like.

Regarding the Calm Depths GB, there will be a couple extra ErgoDox keycap sets going up in the classifieds when production is complete. This is part of a larger Charity auction (in which all proceeds will go to GH) but aside from that, I have purchased an additional 7 ErgoDox sets that I plan to sell at retail after everyone's gotten their orders. This is an investment on my part, to make my wife less angry about my spending a significant amount of time and money on getting this GB through to the end.

That being said, there will be a total of 8 Calm Depths Ergodox keycap sets going to the classifieds in december/january.

[czarek]

Also I forgot to mention that the PCBs will be black with white labels