Alps Wiki Discussion

[andb]

The wiki page is really good. I have a few issues I'd like to discuss (great thing with mediawiki is the discussion page, I guess we have to do it here)

Can we embed images to show the the switch structure?
Can images be added showing the differences between the switches?
Are there good pressure graphs anywhere on the net of similar quality to those that Cherry has published?
[EDIT] Just saw the link in another post to this: http://web.archive.org/web/20050424065758/www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/html/alpssw.html  Shame the graphs don't have activation points marked. [/EDIT]


I have a bunch of Zenith ZKB-2s with yellow switches, and older Zeniths with greens. Is there a difference or is it just a different plastic color?

The same thing for Black / Orange / Pink - are there differences?

Does it make sense to link to the Youtube video about opening the switch? It might be better to make a video with a better perspective.

These are a few ideas I had, anyone else think of anything they'd like to see on that page?

[andb]

Also, I've found that "Alps" often cant be seen on the switch, though it is printed on the bottom side, which is against the metal plate. So to see it, the switch has to be unsoldered and removed. This might be interesting info to add.

[lowpoly]

There is a 'discussion' button at the bottom of the Wiki page. Looks like it creates another thread connected to the Wiki article.

But nobody might see it.

[iMav]

There is a better wiki implementation for vB that is very mediawiki-like.  Things are kind of up in the air as far as "geekhack 3.0" is concerned (1.0 was phpbb-based)...but when I get geekhack updated, if we stay with vBulletin, we'll have a much better implementation.

[Chloe]

Good suggestions, andb. The links in the article already have detailed images but it would be nice to have some embedded.

Also, I've found that "Alps" often cant be seen on the switch, though it is printed on the bottom side, which is against the metal plate. So to see it, the switch has to be unsoldered and removed. This might be interesting info to add.

Here you can see with simplified copies the logo is not intact:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/alps_sw/chens_real_fake.jpg

The alternate action grey stem from my Apple Extended II does not have the ALPS logo on the bottom.

[andb]

The alternate action grey stem from my Apple Extended II does not have the ALPS logo on the bottom.

By bottom you do mean that you tried unsoldering it and looked at the side against the metal plate? If yes, thats interesting to know, so there are indeed switches without any logo at all. My experience is limited to about 10 alps boards, and so far I've found logos on all of the switch types that I have.

Shame the picture of the blade on the simplified Alps switch isnt a bit clearer.

[itlnstln]

From the link, it looks like the mfrs. of the fake Alps harvested a bunch of bottom pieces of original Alps switches and mutilated the Alps logo (and the pin).

[Chloe]

By bottom you do mean that you tried unsoldering it and looked at the side against the metal plate?

I desoldered it.

[sandy55]

re ALPS logo on the upper housing of so called Bigfoot class sw
( I myself do not like to use "Bigfoot" to classify switches but well, it may be convenient )

**should be applied to genuine complicated alps only***

existence of ALPS on the upper case  
green stem/linear; in most case No  
yellow stem/linear;No
blue stem/clicky  ; No
orange stem/tactile;mainly No,  latter models have a logo
pink stem    /tactile;Yes
white stem  /clicky ; Yes
white stem w/damper/tactile; Yes
cream stem w/damper/tactile; Yes
black stem  /tactile; Yes

**lock sw( used for shift key in Mac ) n alternate sw( mainly for space bar ) are excluded**

** stem color "green" is listed in click type section in alps catalog '94 edition.  while it is not listed in linear section.
** if you happen to see green/clicky of real alps, it IS a rare one.

** in the same catlog, stem color blue, orange and, pink are not listed.
** blue/clicky was taken over to white.
** orange was taken over to pink and then to black
** yellow/linear lasted till the end of production. it even could be found  at some shops in 2002 ( maybe these were the last production lot )

** for fake/simplified alps, color of key stem dosen't concern with it's key action so far as of Jan.2009.

edited: alps green linear; *NO* changed to *in most case NO*  
2 examples of alps logo on the case were reported
to mousefan BBS.

[sandy55]

From the link, it looks like the mfrs. of the fake Alps harvested a bunch of bottom pieces of original Alps switches and mutilated the Alps logo (and the pin).

I'm afraid but I can't understand "mfrs" and  "mutilated the Alps logo (and the pin)." .  Could you use another words so that I can understand ?

[itlnstln]

I'm afraid but I can't understand "mfrs" and  "mutilated the Alps logo (and the pin)." .  Could you use another words so that I can understand ?

Mfrs = Manufacturers

By mutilating the Alps logo I mean modifying the logo in a desructive or damaging way.  The connector pin also appears to be modified from this | to this >.

[sandy55]

re ALPS logo on the upper housing of so called Bigfoot class sw
( I myself do not like to use "Bigfoot" to classify switches but well, it may be convenient )

**should be applied to genuine complicated alps only***

existence of ALPS on the upper case  
green stem/linear; No  
yellow stem/linear;No
blue stem/clicky  ; No
orange stem/tactile;mainly No,  latter models have a logo
pink stem    /tactile;Yes
white stem  /clicky ; Yes
white stem w/damper/tactile; Yes
cream stem w/damper/tactile; Yes
black stem  /tactile; Yes

**lock sw( used for shift key in Mac ) n alternate sw( mainly for space bar ) are excluded**

** stem color "green" is listed in click type section in alps catalog '94 edition.  while it is not listed in linear section.
** if you happen to see green/clicky of real alps, it IS a rare one.

** in the same catlog, stem color blue, orange and, pink are not listed.
** blue/clicky was taken over to white.
** orange was taken over to pink and then to black
** yellow/linear lasted till the end of production. it even could be found  at some shops in 2002 ( maybe these were the last production lot )

** for fake/simplified alps, color of key stem dosen't concern with it's key action so far as of Jan.2009.

[itlnstln]

Got it!  Would you know why the fake/simplified switches would have an Alps logo that appears to be destroyed on the bottom of the switch?  Could it be that the manufacturers were/are using old Alps molds and equipment to fabricate their switches?

Thanks for your insight.  Between yourself and Chloe, you provide a wealth of information to GeekHack.  Thanks.

[andb]

** blue/clicky was took over to white.
** orange was took over to pink and then to black

Just checking, so blue is the older variation, and this was replaced by white. There is no difference between these other than when they were made.

Orange, pink and black all have the exact same tech specs, with Orange being the oldest, black the newest.

Have I understood correctly?

Sandy, thanks for all the invaluable (that means priceless ) info you are contributing. Between you and Chloe I don't think anyone else needs to even post

[Edit] Looks like lnstln shares the same sentiment, beat me to it by one minute!
I would expect the logo was removed from the molds themselves and was probably done due to someone wanting to remove the corporate identity. Maybe the plastic is injected here on the mold, leaving the small nibs. I expect its not meant to "be" anything, just a quick removal.
[/Edit]

[itlnstln]

Between you and Chloe I don't think anyone else needs to even post

I don't know about that.  I mean, someone has to ask questions for them to answer.

[wellington1869]

I don't know about that.  I mean, someone has to ask questions for them to answer.

lol. look at it this way, we must make them feel useful

[xsphat]

The feeling of usefulness must come from within, grasshopper.

[sandy55]

Just checking, so blue is the older variation, and this was replaced by white. There is no difference between these other than when they were made.

Generally speaking, yes.  but still there are differences between old and new. three variations can be seen in switching  assembly. fro older to new, black, gray and white.  total hight of the switching assembly is different. I think these changes are minor issue and have no relations to its tech specs.  green stem is different from the others. maybe lowpoly knows it.

pink and black all have the exact same tech specs, with Orange being the oldest, black the newest

I do not know exact tech specs but they are all non-click/tactile. as far as time order concerns, the answer is yes.  

would expect the logo was removed from the molds themselves and was probably done due to someone wanting to remove the corporate identity. Maybe the plastic is injected here on the mold, leaving the small nibs. I expect its not meant to "be" anything, just a quick removal.

I do think so, too.   I think mold itself was used by many sub-constructors of Hu-Hua and one ( or more ) of such manufacturers started to make logo-less low-cost switches.

regarding lead pin with triangle shape.
in my opinion, there are two reasons for this.
1. to keep strength of thin metallic contact plate.
2. to keep balance while assembling contact plate within a switch module.
    If the lead from larger plate is in flat minus shape, the contact plate will easily lean to the other side when it is set onto the base of lower housing.  we stand with our legs without problem but it's a bit hard to stand with one leg.  With triangle shaped lead, it's much easier to hold the plate straight align within the case rather than flat minus shaped lead.  but even with that shape of lead, it's a bit hard to reassemble simplified switches after rdesoldering/removing contact plates from the case.  penetrated slits are loosened while pulling off lead pin with small amount of solder.  

Genuine complicated switching assembly is consisted with many parts and built as single unit with two leads ( say, two legs ).  go figure.

[lowpoly]

maybe lowpoly knows it.

I'm still overwhelmed by all the details. Maybe Chloe.

[sandy55]

re: weird shape of a lead pin in simplified/fake alps.

It's not me who noticed the difference of shapes of lead pin.
Mr. chens ( pseudonym ), one of keyboard freaks in Taiwan, wrote me that he noticed lead pins of fakes are different from real alps. The picture Chloe referred was what Chens sent me back then.
I checked all of mine and examined precisely if there was any reason for triangle shape. reason 1 and 2 in former comment is the result of my investigation.  
Reason 1 is more important.
larger plate has a leaf lever ( two levers in case of fake without alps logo )which activates contacts pressed by a key stem in it's downward process.
It means the larger plate receive pressing force repeatedly while it is held within a key module with ONE leg ( lead pin ).  I believe that changing shape of lead from flat thin plate to triangular shape was mandatory to earn it's stiffness. If 3rd parties used flat shape pin like genuine alps, then resulted products might suffer from switching malfunction in a short period of usage.

another fact seen in upper housing
you may notice there are tiny slits on each ends of square hole of for key stem in older version of real alps module. those slits can't be seen in newer version. I reported it here. Then mousefan checked all alps switches in his stock and he confirmed the fact that those slits are typical in older switches. I don't think this change as "development". It's a kind of "simplification" and it's a one bad samples of mass production.
The change can be seen in white/clicky switch and after.( some white switches have slits like those in omni 101 )

sandy, the switch-a-holic