New price structure for classic IBM iron

[fohat.digs]

This seller is very knowledgeable and enjoys an excellent reputation here, although I have never bought from him.

So, this appears to be be twice the going rate on ebay, yet half the current price of the SSK.

It seems to me that these 2 types of keyboards should be approximately on par, price-wise, and/or these should sell for at least 2/3 the price of an SSK. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291015319873&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160

[127001]

The price is too high for the funky caps lock imo

[ed_avis]

The same seller for $20 has the 'enhanced' PCjr keyboard: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261311009498

This is a rubber dome keyboard, an improvement over the legendarily awful 'Chiclet keyboard' the PCjr first shipped with, but still not much good.  And hard to adapt, since it uses wireless communication.  Still, the price is low and it might round out a collection.

[esoomenona]

The price is too high for the funky caps lock imo

LOL... Caps are easily replaced with BS. Hell, I'm certain someone with a Model M would trade you their Caps lock key for that Ctrl key.

[127001]

The price is too high for the funky caps lock imo

LOL... Caps are easily replaced with BS. Hell, I'm certain someone with a Model M would trade you their Caps lock key for that Ctrl key.

I get this, but $250 for this board without all the right caps doesn't make sense to me. 250 + extra work?

I bought one of same condition, with all the caps, for half that not a month and a half a go. The price is twice what it should be.

[esoomenona]

How does it not have all the caps? I can see them all in the pictures. Because the layout is not to your liking is not the fault of the seller.

Anyhow, I do agree that this is overpriced. As much as fohat.digs would love to see Model Fs increase in price this much, or even be on par with the SSK, I don't agree.

In fact, SSKs are overpriced. People need to quit bidding so incessantly on them...

[127001]

How does it not have all the caps? I can see them all in the pictures. Because the layout is not to your liking is not the fault of the seller.

Anyhow, I do agree that this is overpriced. As much as fohat.digs would love to see Model Fs increase in price this much, or even be on par with the SSK, I don't agree.

In fact, SSKs are overpriced. People need to quit bidding so incessantly on them...

What I mean is that the caps are not OEM as they would be from the factory ; though I suppose I care about that now than most do in here. Also I'm not faulting the seller at all . He clear points the issue out. I just don't think the keyboard is worth that is all.

[esoomenona]

Whatever...

[fohat.digs]

What I mean is that the caps are not OEM as they would be from the factory ; though I suppose I care about that now than most do in here.

How are the caps not OEM?

[127001]

What I mean is that the caps are not OEM as they would be from the factory ; though I suppose I care about that now than most do in here.

How are the caps not OEM?

Caps lock has been cut up. It's in the listing.

[dorkvader]

I was confused at first, but I believe they are referring to the third-to-last picture, where you can see the side skirt of the caps lock key has been broken off.

[terran5992]

I was confused at first, but I believe they are referring to the third-to-last picture, where you can see the side skirt of the caps lock key has been broken off.

Show Image

And they expect to sell it at 250$

[berserkfan]

combination of greedy seller and impatient buyer means they can ask for any price and get rewarded at that price.

I find this very irksome.

I was confused at first, but I believe they are referring to the third-to-last picture, where you can see the side skirt of the caps lock key has been broken off.

Show Image

And they expect to sell it at 250$

[fohat.digs]

NC Bound is known to be knowledgeable and dependable seller. I have never bought from him, but I have never heard anything negative.

He knows prices and always asks top dollar for his stuff.

These boards are drastically underpriced in relation to the current SSK price spike, in my opinion.

[esoomenona]

These boards are drastically underpriced in relation to the current SSK price spike, in my opinion.

Stop, please. There is no relation between the two. Your opinion of what Model Fs should go for, and because SSKs are spiking, doesn't mean that Fs should be priced higher or that they're underpriced.

Model Fs have a nice feel, but people like the SSK because it is a more common TKL form factor. Let's face it: a lot of people don't like the layouts that Model F keyboards come in. This is why they're not as desired, thus why they're not priced as high.

Now look at the 60% Model F. You see how many people wanted those? Because it's a popular layout. Maybe once those are able to be used with a modern computer, those might spike in price just as SSKs.

But these Model Fs? Nope.

[berserkfan]

Moose, I do agree with you that I feel Fohat has an overly high opinion of the Model F. Noobs may be misled by his optimism.

As a guy who has spent a lot of time fixing his Fs and not succeeded and now stored them away to attack them another day, I do not feel that Model Fs are that great. I love them, but not at ridiculous prices. Anything that you need to spend a heck lot of time working on deserves to be discounted appropriately.

I have been posting nice deals on Model Fs to share the fun. But I'm not THAT big a fan. And lest anybody be tempted to buy a Model F, let me remind them that the hammers can get disarrayed if there is an impact, causing the key not to actuate anymore or actuate endlessly. Something that could take Fohat an hour to fix may take a noob 100 hours to fix, so be forewarned.

These boards are drastically underpriced in relation to the current SSK price spike, in my opinion.

Stop, please. There is no relation between the two. Your opinion of what Model Fs should go for, and because SSKs are spiking, doesn't mean that Fs should be priced higher or that they're underpriced.

Model Fs have a nice feel, but people like the SSK because it is a more common TKL form factor. Let's face it: a lot of people don't like the layouts that Model F keyboards come in. This is why they're not as desired, thus why they're not priced as high.

Now look at the 60% Model F. You see how many people wanted those? Because it's a popular layout. Maybe once those are able to be used with a modern computer, those might spike in price just as SSKs.

But these Model Fs? Nope.

[fohat.digs]

Now look at the 60% Model F. You see how many people wanted those? Because it's a popular layout.

The "kishsavers" that were selling a couple of weeks ago?

I never could figure out what the asking price really was, but I might have considered it.

Small keyboards do not appeal to me very much, because I use the arrow keys and numpad all the time, but it would have been nice to have.

[dorkvader]

I will be using mine with the 50-key matrix F as a numberpad. I'm like the old guys: I need my arrow keys and enjoy a numberpad.

[127001]

I will be using mine with the 50-key matrix F as a numberpad. I'm like the old guys: I need my arrow keys and enjoy a numberpad.

I'm thinking of having one section of the 50 key as hex number pad

[fohat.digs]

Let's face it: a lot of people don't like the layouts that Model F keyboards come in. This is why they're not as desired, thus why they're not priced as high.

Clearly, you are right.

A Model F AT in what appeared to be excellent condition, just sold on ebay for under $100 + shipping, with active bids.

Somebody got a nice deal, especially if they are capable of doing an ANSI-like mod.

[1391406]

Let's face it: a lot of people don't like the layouts that Model F keyboards come in. This is why they're not as desired, thus why they're not priced as high.

Clearly, you are right.

A Model F AT in what appeared to be excellent condition, just sold on ebay for under $100 + shipping, with active bids.

Some people get lucky, in my opinion. Consider the one that sold on Nov. 7th for $165 with a couple of bids behind it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-Model-F-PC-AT-Keyboard-6450200-Clicky-84-Keys-w-Passive-PS-2-Adapter-/370932498702?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item565d4cc10e

[1391406]

In my opinion, the F AT is sought after due to the ease of adaptability, build quality, and obviously the switches, not to mention it's becoming an endangered species in the market. Granted, the layout isn't perfect but it's a hell of a lot easier to adapt to than the F XT and isn't what I'd consider a deal breaker, unlike its older brother.

[1391406]

And lest anybody be tempted to buy a Model F, let me remind them that the hammers can get disarrayed if there is an impact, causing the key not to actuate anymore or actuate endlessly. Something that could take Fohat an hour to fix may take a noob 100 hours to fix, so be forewarned.

Impact damage isn't specific to F's, though. Considering the duration most of them have been in use, I'd say their reliability generally exceeds that of most mechanicals.

[fohat.digs]

Impact damage isn't specific to F's, though.

The internals are rock-solid, but the case plastic is rather brittle, especially on big boards with bottleneck corners.

And the AT case is very hard to pop apart.

[AKIMbO]

Impact damage isn't specific to F's, though.

The internals are rock-solid, but the case plastic is rather brittle, especially on big boards with bottleneck corners.

And the AT case is very hard to pop apart.

It's an exercise in stress management....i have to go on an aspirin regimen for one month prior to opening up an f at to prevent myself from having a heart attack due to the creaking sound of the plastic latches at the front lip of the case.

[berserkfan]

Difference is, if one Cherry switch is damaged, even with soldering it is fairly easy to replace. If one darn hammer is out of place, you have to struggle with the entire keyboard. That's how I ended up with 2 dead F XTs. One came to me dead thanks to crap packaging and shipping damage, the other came to me with one hammer misplaced, and after using it for a while (maybe it was my changing of the keycaps) several keys stopped working, so I opened it up and couldn't put it back together in a working manner ever again.

And that, my friend, is how I ended up with THREE F XTs.

And lest anybody be tempted to buy a Model F, let me remind them that the hammers can get disarrayed if there is an impact, causing the key not to actuate anymore or actuate endlessly. Something that could take Fohat an hour to fix may take a noob 100 hours to fix, so be forewarned.

Impact damage isn't specific to F's, though. Considering the duration most of them have been in use, I'd say their reliability generally exceeds that of most mechanicals.

[1391406]

Impact damage isn't specific to F's, though.

The internals are rock-solid, but the case plastic is rather brittle, especially on big boards with bottleneck corners.

And the AT case is very hard to pop apart.

I can't address the durability of the case, as I've never attempted to open my XT or AT F. Granted, I wouldn't want to bang on either to test the reliability thereof, however they feel really solid. I've noticed most of the ones I've see on eBay aren't generally cracked or chipped.

[fohat.digs]

I can't address the durability of the case, as I've never attempted to open my XT or AT F.

They all behave differently.

The XT is certainly the strongest - the case configuration does not have any particular weak points, the plastic is very thick, and the bottom is a metal pan that screws to the top case with alignment tabs at the front.

The 122-key terminal board has the metal pan bottom, which is a big plus, but it has a lot of surface area and the front corners taper down to narrow points. Given that the large surface needs to have some flex, the mass of the beast (8.25 pounds / 3.75 kg), and that the bottom pan is metal, if something has to give it will be one of those front corners.

The AT has a problem because the bottom case is also plastic, not as thick as the XT's, and the front tab clips are extremely tight. Being that the plastic is hard and brittle, I am always fearful that I will break those tabs and the case halves will never hold together properly.

Unlike the Model M case plastic, which is not as hard and rather tough, the F plastic seems to have a skin-like surface layer with texture overlaying a rigid core that is glossy. If that skin layer is peeled or abraded, you can clearly see where it is missing.

[1391406]

Difference is, if one Cherry switch is damaged, even with soldering it is fairly easy to replace. If one darn hammer is out of place, you have to struggle with the entire keyboard.

That might be true, although I tend to think such issues are the exception rather than the rule. F's are real workhorses from what I've seen, and most have apparently stood up to decades of use (and abuse) without incident.

[berserkfan]

I think they are strongest when on a desk. With that kind of solid metal and heavy PBT construction, nonstop banging for decades in an office environment don't do damage.

The problem comes when they are shipped 10,000 miles and shaken, turned upside down, bumped around, box flipped over, tossed by rough handlers, etc. Of course that is the exception (for most people, their Model Fs will never leave their desks), but this exception has worked heavily to my disadvantage.

The Model F is designed to be a stationary typewriter and it works perfectly as such. It is absolutely not designed to be mobile. If an idiot (aka me) chooses to ship it as far as the equivalent of 10,000,000 trips between your cabinet and desk (presumably the maximum distance your model F ever travels is 1 yard if you are rotating between keyboards), the idiot should be aware that the chances of dropping the Model F is considerably higher than 1 in 10 million, and that these hundreds of little hammers like to be uncooperative.

Difference is, if one Cherry switch is damaged, even with soldering it is fairly easy to replace. If one darn hammer is out of place, you have to struggle with the entire keyboard.

That might be true, although I tend to think such issues are the exception rather than the rule. F's are real workhorses from what I've seen, and most have apparently stood up to decades of use (and abuse) without incident.

[1391406]

I think they are strongest when on a desk. With that kind of solid metal and heavy PBT construction, nonstop banging for decades in an office environment don't do damage.

The problem comes when they are shipped 10,000 miles and shaken, turned upside down, bumped around, box flipped over, tossed by rough handlers, etc. Of course that is the exception (for most people, their Model Fs will never leave their desks), but this exception has worked heavily to my disadvantage.

The Model F is designed to be a stationary typewriter and it works perfectly as such. It is absolutely not designed to be mobile. If an idiot (aka me) chooses to ship it as far as the equivalent of 10,000,000 trips between your cabinet and desk (presumably the maximum distance your model F ever travels is 1 yard if you are rotating between keyboards), the idiot should be aware that the chances of dropping the Model F is considerably higher than 1 in 10 million, and that these hundreds of little hammers like to be uncooperative.

This likely comes down to proper packing. The AT F in AKIMbO's AT F tour is seemingly still functional subsequent numerous shipments to and from the various (7+) participants.

[fohat.digs]

The AT F in AKIMbO's AT F tour is seemingly still functional subsequent numerous shipments to and from the various (7+) participants.

I think that the XT and AT are pretty robust in handling (except for those stupid "Frankenstein" ears that operate the legs) because they are relatively small, tight, and and they do not flex much. I have never had any problem with the XT and physical damage, beyond the "skin" abrasion issue, and only once have I received an AT with any cracks. Opening the case is another matter.

The big ones, on the other hand, are far more prone to damage, for the reasons I described earlier.

For good shipping, they need to be protected from side-to-side shocks. Good padding at the corners is essential, and they should not flop around.

Of course, double-boxing with loose styrofoam in each is best, but that can drive shipping costs very high because carriers use voodoo-like calculations incorporating both size and weight, and if you can't use flat rate packaging, you pay a huge premium.

[berserkfan]

Oh yes, the frankenears are very annoying because they like to break!

As for XT, I notice that one of my XTs was loose. The foam had deteriorated. I think the problem lies in the dirty-disgusting-whatever grease that was used on some XTs. When this greasy thing rots, it rots the foam with it or makes the foam shrink - whatever the case, one of my XTs was actually 'loose' and the hammers moved very easily. They could be disarranged simply by me pulling up a keycap!

On WCASS's advice I made the casing tight with a piece of heavy paper between the PCB and the metal plate. Unfortunately, this damn XT refused to function after that. I still don't know why and it is still one of my pending projects.

And oh yes, those people located CONUS have NO IDEA how exorbitant volumetric pricing is. It's nice to live in the center of the civilized world aka USA. The peasants living on the fringes of the Middle Democracy don't have it so good with free Amazon shipping and huge mail in rebates and what have you.


I think that the XT and AT are pretty robust in handling (except for those stupid "Frankenstein" ears that operate the legs) because they are relatively small, tight, and and they do not flex much. I have never had any problem with the XT and physical damage, beyond the "skin" abrasion issue, and only once have I received an AT with any cracks. Opening the case is another matter.

The big ones, on the other hand, are far more prone to damage, for the reasons I described earlier.

For good shipping, they need to be protected from side-to-side shocks. Good padding at the corners is essential, and they should not flop around.

Of course, double-boxing with loose styrofoam in each is best, but that can drive shipping costs very high because carriers use voodoo-like calculations incorporating both size and weight, and if you can't use flat rate packaging, you pay a huge premium.
[/quote]

[fohat.digs]

On WCASS's advice I made the casing tight with a piece of heavy paper between the PCB and the metal plate.

Isn't there a mylar sheet between the PCB and the plate? What does that have to do with the case, that is the internal plates, isn't it?

I have laid foam rubber or felt in the bottom of the back pan before installing the internals, and that has been helpful for sound.

[berserkfan]

Hi Wcass

I didn't have a plastic sheet between PCB and plate, so maybe that was the reason why my F XT hammers were very loose. I asked you and you said it was ok to put paper there. (I hope I didn't misunderstand you!)


 
[/quote]

Isn't there a mylar sheet between the PCB and the plate? What does that have to do with the case, that is the internal plates, isn't it?

I have laid foam rubber or felt in the bottom of the back pan before installing the internals, and that has been helpful for sound.
[/quote]

[fohat.digs]

Hi Wcass

I didn't have a plastic sheet between PCB and plate, so maybe that was the reason why my F XT hammers were very loose. I asked you and you said it was ok to put paper there. (I hope I didn't misunderstand you!)

I have heard of people replacing the rubber mat (aka "blanket") of a Model M with paper, presumably in an attempt to increase ping.

I have also used paper in addition to foam in the hammer base layer of the F. I put a sheet of high-quality vellum between the foam and the front plate in hope that it would prevent the foam sticking to the metal over time.

The F still worked, but I did not like the way the paper looked so I removed it.

The reason I advocate for cutting new foam mats from thicker materials (1/16" or 1.5mm) is that I feel that the thicker the mat, the more securely the rest of the assembly holds together. It makes re-assembly harder, and clamps more essential, but I like the end product.

I have not had an XT open in a long time, but there is definitely a mylar sheet in the PCB/back plate assembly of an F-122.

[Game Theory]

I used a thin sheet of silicone and everything seems fine but I was never sure what thickness to use since it doesn't compress as well as the foam mat.  Debated on 1/16 or 1/32 thickness for a long time.  Decided on 1/32 and it was probably a good thing since my de-rusted plate + primer + too many coats of paint was thicker than the plate initially was.

Painting has always been my Achilles heel.

[fohat.digs]

That Model F AT from Andrea's Typing is back up on ebay again and still under $100

Somebody should snag it.