Author Topic: Really expensive keyboards?  (Read 6311 times)

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Offline Keytrun

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Really expensive keyboards?
« on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:28:44 »
I'm curious about some of these really expensive keyboards I've just seen in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50991.0

Instead of continuing to hijack their thread, I figured I'd make my own. I apologize if I'm posting too much / making too many threads - I'm just super excited and am trying to learn as much as I possibly can. I just ordered a Filco Majestouch 2 TKL because I was under the impression that it was among the best. I've been working really hard lately and I wanted to treat myself to something nice - kind of a top of the line deal. I've had this blackwidow for a while now and its honestly just built poorly. I feel like this cord in the back is going to pop off or something. Anyway, after seeing these really expensive boards I'm curious as to whether or not I should be looking at them. Can someone tell me a little about them? What makes them so expensive? Are they actually "better" than the Filco? Or are they just that more expensive because of the aluminum? What is the allure of the aluminum? I've been told that the filco has a very solid, strong plastic. I would understand wanting a harder material if it was flimsy, but in this case I'm just not 100% comprehending it. Also, is the filco made of ABS or PBT plastic? For whatever reason I was under the impression it was PBT, but I may be wrong.

Anyway, yea - I'm really curious about these boards in that post that are marked at $350+. I understand the topre's being more expensive, but at this point I'm not really interested in topre for gaming. I just want to make sure I'm getting the best board I can be getting right now, because after this I know my wife isn't going to let me get another one for a while, so I really want it to count!

Offline demik

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:33:22 »
the appeal of korean keyboards are (imo)

customize-able
stepped caps lock
programmable
1.5|1|1.5 mods
aluminum cases
rarity

are they better than a filco when it comes down to typing? doubt it. are they better looking? depends who you ask. are they worth their price? well, that's up to the person that buys it.
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Offline ITzNybble

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:35:02 »
the appeal of korean keyboards are (imo)

customize-able
stepped caps lock
programmable
1.5|1|1.5 mods
aluminum cases
rarity

are they better than a filco when it comes down to typing? doubt it. are they better looking? depends who you ask. are they worth their price? well, that's up to the person that buys it.

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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:35:18 »
Those expensive keyboards are custom keyboards.  They are made in smaller number than mass-produced Filcos, CM QFRs, Blackwidows, etc.  So the price is higher at least because of that.  That includes custom case design and execution, custom plate, custom PCB and controllers, firmware, etc.  Secondly, the materials used for those custom cases are usually better and more expensive.  For example it can be machined aluminum--a hefty amount of it--which is then polished/bead blasted and anodized (extra to the price).  There are even possible other composite parts like machined and polished brass plates, etc.  Price for all that is quite high because of materials, cutting, finishing, and the relatively small number production.  If 1000 were made, price per unit would have been a bit lower.  But they are made in much smaller numbers, like 10-100 of each kind per production run and that's it.  Acrylic cases are also custom designed and made so they are cheaper than aluminum but more expensive than standard cases.

Better than standard keyboards like Filco?  Not really.  Define "better"?  They are just different.  They are fully custom, made from more solid/heavy materials so they absorb vibrations really well (they sound very different vs. a regular keyboard), and they are usually fully programmable.  Plus most allow for custom LED layouts and modes.  Filco and Ducky keyboards are still excellent, for example, you're just paying for mass-produced keyboards made out of cheaper materials.  But their PCB and build quality is still excellent.  If you want eye candy and better denser materials and don't mind paying more--get a custom keyboard.  Otherwise, you'll be happy with your Filco--it's a great keyboard.
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Offline Keytrun

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:42:42 »
What do you mean by "fully customizable"? They're already built so what's more to customize? I appreciate the responses. I think I'll just keep my filco order for now. I really want the costar stabilizers and none of these seem to have it. I'd be interested to type on a standard vs an aluminum keyboard and see if / how it feels different. Thanks a ton for the responses. I'm just super interested in this stuff and am trying to figure it all out. Any more info you guys can give me on these expensive boards would be great :)

Offline demik

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:45:02 »
different lay outs (for example the kmac happy can be done to have the same lay out a HHKB, or a regular 60% keyboard with 1.25 mods or 1.5 mods, same with GH60)

full LED support

stepped or centered stemmed caps lock

you pick your own switches

diff colored cases

plates that allow you to mod your switches without having to desolder said switch

and yeah, most boards tend to go with cherry stabilizers for whatever reason.

basically what it comes down to is starting on a clean slate. and not something already produced for you from a factory.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:47:50 by demik »
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Offline Keytrun

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:50:35 »
Thanks.

Also, I was just looking at your profile, Photoelectric. WTF is http://geekhack.org/profile_pictures/27585_1377225540.jpg ? Its beautiful. I didn't know cherry made TKL's. Is it aluminum? Are those PBT caps or standard ABS? How much different are doubleshot ABS vs thick PBT?

Offline moogle

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:56:11 »
that's just a cherry sticker on a ducky shine ii(?)

Offline Pacifist

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:56:47 »
Thanks.

Also, I was just looking at your profile, Photoelectric. WTF is http://geekhack.org/profile_pictures/27585_1377225540.jpg ? Its beautiful. I didn't know cherry made TKL's. Is it aluminum? Are those PBT caps or standard ABS? How much different are doubleshot ABS vs thick PBT?

Thats a custom board. He put a cherry sticker on it. I'm going to assume its a ducky.

Offline demik

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:57:08 »
that's a painted case with a cherry sticker and ducky abs caps
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Offline elton5354

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:57:31 »
He spray painted it ;)

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 20:59:04 »
What do you mean by "fully customizable"? They're already built so what's more to customize? I appreciate the responses. I think I'll just keep my filco order for now. I really want the costar stabilizers and none of these seem to have it. I'd be interested to type on a standard vs an aluminum keyboard and see if / how it feels different. Thanks a ton for the responses. I'm just super interested in this stuff and am trying to figure it all out. Any more info you guys can give me on these expensive boards would be great :)

They usually come in unassembled kits that include PCB, plate, and case.  You add your own switches, resistors, and LEDs.  So in that sense, you can put in anything you'd like.  What you see listed are already assembled keyboards by someone (original owner or  someone else at owner's request for a fee, if they can't solder themselves).  Assembly price is usually included into the total, as it's not done by factory employees but by private individuals like you and me.  You can have multiple colors of LEDs and such, if you wanted.  As well as multipe LED modes, similar to Ducky Shines.

P.S.: that's a Ducky Shine II TKL with magenta LEDs.  I painted it silver metal flake and it has a Cherry sticker on it from a member here (Shadovved, who had them cut).  Someone's currently reselling that keyboard on the classifieds ;(
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 November 2013, 21:01:06 by Photoelectric »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 21:00:02 »
Thanks.

Also, I was just looking at your profile, Photoelectric. WTF is http://geekhack.org/profile_pictures/27585_1377225540.jpg ? Its beautiful. I didn't know cherry made TKL's. Is it aluminum? Are those PBT caps or standard ABS? How much different are doubleshot ABS vs thick PBT?

It's not actually cherry. I think it's a leopold, but I don't know offhand.
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Offline Keytrun

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:24:08 »
I actually have some more questions about this - I hope you guys don't mind.

Besides just more options (not having to solder to change switches), what makes one custom better than another? I'd read about some having a "better" pcb or controller. What exactly does that mean? Why is the KMAC 2 better than the KMAC 1? Is the phantom better than the LZ-GH? Are all of them good? I saw this thread here http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50458.0 and I was wondering if that was a good buy. I have to imagine the majority of customs are around that price range, so (if I were interested) why would I get that one over another?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:33:55 »
It all depends on what you want out of a keyboard.

Offline tbc

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:38:37 »
you know how designers are really specific about fonts? everyday people look at the same fonts and don't give a ****. exact same thing here.  one you gain enough exposure to keyboards, the small details between the customs stand out.

personally, I think the gon cases are amazing; they have side leds
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Offline MKULTRA

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:39:23 »
I actually have some more questions about this - I hope you guys don't mind.

Besides just more options (not having to solder to change switches), what makes one custom better than another? I'd read about some having a "better" pcb or controller. What exactly does that mean? Why is the KMAC 2 better than the KMAC 1? Is the phantom better than the LZ-GH? Are all of them good? I saw this thread here http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50458.0 and I was wondering if that was a good buy. I have to imagine the majority of customs are around that price range, so (if I were interested) why would I get that one over another?
They all have different perks.  Phantom is a 100% board made by some members of the GH community.  No LED's and fixed layout, it was made to fit in a Filco case.  KMAC's are designed by kbdmania I believe?  They have programming functions, really solid cases, and some other features.  LZ-GH is a special edition board made by a guy named LifeZone.  Really solid and pretty.

Filco's are nice boards.  I have one.  Using it atm.

Offline Keytrun

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:47:23 »
What do you mean programming functions? What kind of difference do different pcb controllers (little thing around the arrow keys) make?

I just want a really nice aluminum case, full led support and cherry switches on a standard TKL. Most all of them have that, so does that mean I couldn't go wrong on any of them? I see boards like the cheat for 600 bucks and then the KMAC for 400. For someone like me, considering they both have the features I want, why would I spend that extra 200? Or is it just wanting certain "small details" as tbc said? I have to imagine that, especially when it comes to cases, some are just built better, right? I know that the Filco is just "built better" than the CM QFR. I've read that the Filco just "feels" more solid. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 22:49:15 »
A lot of the customs can have varying layouts with offest caps lock, different mod sizes and some extra key placements.

Offline tbc

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 20 November 2013, 23:06:31 »
how to choose a korean custom:

1.1  pick your layout:

winkey or winkeyless?

how many keys?

HHKB-style
60%
75%
modified 75% (kmac mini only i think)
TKL
104-key
108-key
1800

want a centered capslock, but no winkey? that's doable with customs, but that's never seen in off-the-shelf

1.2.  pick your plate:

stainless steel? acrylic? moddable(phantom-style)?

2.  pick your pcb:

you need LEDs?  can do.
dip switches?  you can have that too.

3.  pick your case:

what material?  acrylic?  aluminum?

low profile so you can see switch top?

naturally sloped so you don't need feet?

do you WANT feet so you can screw and unscrew them as your tastes change?

how heavy do you want it?  get brass for heavier boards, go arcylic for lighter

need leds on the side?  go for GONs or the lightsaver

4.  pick your switches:

you can actually mod any keyboard to any switch, but it's just easier when you don't have to desolder first


there's alot more detail than this

all keyboards are largely very similiar; people complain about DETAILS.  when you have a custom, you end up with a board that you can't complain about because you have the power to remove all the details that you hate and put in ones that you actually like.
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Offline terran5992

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 01:47:36 »
how to choose a korean custom:

1.1  pick your layout:

winkey or winkeyless?

how many keys?

HHKB-style
60%
75%
modified 75% (kmac mini only i think)
TKL
104-key
108-key
1800

want a centered capslock, but no winkey? that's doable with customs, but that's never seen in off-the-shelf

1.2.  pick your plate:

stainless steel? acrylic? moddable(phantom-style)?

2.  pick your pcb:

you need LEDs?  can do.
dip switches?  you can have that too.

3.  pick your case:

what material?  acrylic?  aluminum?

low profile so you can see switch top?

naturally sloped so you don't need feet?

do you WANT feet so you can screw and unscrew them as your tastes change?

how heavy do you want it?  get brass for heavier boards, go arcylic for lighter

need leds on the side?  go for GONs or the lightsaver

4.  pick your switches:

you can actually mod any keyboard to any switch, but it's just easier when you don't have to desolder first


there's alot more detail than this

all keyboards are largely very similiar; people complain about DETAILS.  when you have a custom, you end up with a board that you can't complain about because you have the power to remove all the details that you hate and put in ones that you actually like.

You would also most likely need a guy to get the parts for you

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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Really expensive keyboards?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 02:36:40 »
Save your money, friend.

Get a Cherry MX11900 from ebay. Now they're still pretty cheap.

Mod the switches to anything you like. It's easy since they're PCB mounted.

Dye the white keycaps anything you like. Again, very easy to do. Idiot proof (or I couldn't do it myself). Spray paint the casing (again, anyone who is not disabled or has IQ below 70 should be able to do it.)

Rewire the PS2 cable into a teensy. Use dupont connectors (I think that's what they're called) and a teensy with pins so that you don't need to solder. There. Programmability and USB output!

Put a sheet of metal on the back of the casing behind the PCB and you will make it stiffer right away.

When you have used the keyboard for a while and decide that you really want a certain combination of keycap, layout and casing colours and switches, only then spend serious money to get a custom made keyboard.

Otherwise, in a few months you will be here again, selling the keycaps, keyboard and switches that you got for $500 because you discovered that Cherry blues or Red on White doubleshots aren't for you.

What do you mean programming functions? What kind of difference do different pcb controllers (little thing around the arrow keys) make?

I just want a really nice aluminum case, full led support and cherry switches on a standard TKL. Most all of them have that, so does that mean I couldn't go wrong on any of them? I see boards like the cheat for 600 bucks and then the KMAC for 400. For someone like me, considering they both have the features I want, why would I spend that extra 200? Or is it just wanting certain "small details" as tbc said? I have to imagine that, especially when it comes to cases, some are just built better, right? I know that the Filco is just "built better" than the CM QFR. I've read that the Filco just "feels" more solid. That's what I'm trying to figure out.
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