quality keyboards with a narrower spacebar (non-japanese layout)

[TacticalCoder]

I was wondering if there were any good non-japanese keyboards that had a narrower spacebar
(60% or TKL or even full boards: I don't care much since I use my mouse as a leftie I don't
have to travel anyway).

I've got a HHKB Pro 2 and really like the fact that there are no keys below the left shift and
no keys in the lower right corner either: I find the modifier located there too hard to reach,
involving too much hand movement (and then making it very hard to touch type anything).

And seen that I'm hitting Alt/Gui/Space/Alt with my thumbs these keys would be easier to
reach if they were closer to the "center" of the board, hence the need for a narrower spacebar.

So instead of something a bit like this: (ascii art taken from the SpaceFn thread and modified to more or less mimic a HHKB Pro 2)

Code: [Select]

     ,-----------------------------------------------------------.
     |Esc|  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|  \|  ~|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|Bkspc|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Ctrl  |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|  ;|  '|Return  |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Shift   |  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift|  fn|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |    |Alt |Gui |      Space             |Gui |Alt |         |
     `-----------------------------------------------------------'

I wish I could have something a bit more like this:

Code: [Select]

     ,-----------------------------------------------------------.
     |Esc|  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|  \|  ~|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|Bkspc|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Ctrl  |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|  ;|  '|Return  |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Shift   |  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift|    |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |        |Alt |Gui |     Space       |Gui |Alt |fn |        |
     `-----------------------------------------------------------'

(the upper rows don't matter much: it's the narrower spacebar and closer modifiers which I'm after)

Does such a board exist or should I just bite the bullet and go buy a japanese HHKB?

[Puddsy]

Filco miniLA

Pure Pro

Choc mini (I think)

I think there might be a few more. My personal vote is for the miniLA.

[Hak Foo]

I've seen some early "Windows 95" boards where they went 1.5x modifiers across the board.  The one I'm thinking about was a Chicony, but I'd be unsurprised if there are others.  The Chicony was rubber-dome though.

[TacticalCoder]

Filco miniLA

Ah ah cool indeed: it's also my favorite of the one you posted.

There are still a bit too many keys to my taste (the arrow cluster, both caps-lock and ctrl [I only need one of these], the weirdly located delete key [which I don't need anyway]) but I'm not forced to use these keys and that keyboard is nearly exactly what I'm after ^ ^

Must resist buying. Must convince myself  my HHKB's Topre beats Cherry MX blue: my wallet will thank me 

[Reomero]

quality keyboards wiht a narrower spacebar

Filco MiniLa is the first board that came to mind.

[sth]

hhkbjp

[rowdy]

hhkbjp

Non-Japanese layout?

[spiceBar]

I was wondering if there were any good non-japanese keyboards that had a narrower spacebar
(60% or TKL or even full boards: I don't care much since I use my mouse as a leftie I don't
have to travel anyway).

I've got a HHKB Pro 2 and really like the fact that there are no keys below the left shift and
no keys in the lower right corner either: I find the modifier located there too hard to reach,
involving too much hand movement (and then making it very hard to touch type anything).

And seen that I'm hitting Alt/Gui/Space/Alt with my thumbs these keys would be easier to
reach if they were closer to the "center" of the board, hence the need for a narrower spacebar.

So instead of something a bit like this: (ascii art taken from the SpaceFn thread and modified to more or less mimic a HHKB Pro 2)

Code: [Select]

     ,-----------------------------------------------------------.
     |Esc|  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|  \|  ~|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|Bkspc|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Ctrl  |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|  ;|  '|Return  |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Shift   |  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift|  fn|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |    |Alt |Gui |      Space             |Gui |Alt |         |
     `-----------------------------------------------------------'

I wish I could have something a bit more like this:

Code: [Select]

     ,-----------------------------------------------------------.
     |Esc|  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|  \|  ~|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|Bkspc|
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Ctrl  |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|  ;|  '|Return  |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |Shift   |  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift|    |
     |-----------------------------------------------------------|
     |        |Alt |Gui |     Space       |Gui |Alt |fn |        |
     `-----------------------------------------------------------'

(the upper rows don't matter much: it's the narrower spacebar and closer modifiers which I'm after)

Does such a board exist or should I just bite the bullet and go buy a japanese HHKB?

I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but... Do you realize that what you really want is SpaceFN?

Yes, I know, you already know about SpaceFN, but it's hard for me to resist pointing this out.

You are using Alt (the right one I think) as a modifier to get access to a second layout of functions.

You have noticed that it is inconvenient to reach for this key while you are in your workflow.

The first idea, the easiest, is to shorten the space bar to make Alt more accessible.

But it's just a compromise. It's the compromise they have done in the Minila. The result is so-so.

If you follow the idea to its logical conclusion, the most obvious is to turn the space bar into an Fn key!

No need to tinker with the existing standard keyboard layout. No need to add keys. No need to interrupt your workflow.

The space bar is ALWAYS under your thumbs. It is the ultimate Fn key.

I swear I'm not going to hijack every thread like this, but this one was hard to resist.

[TacticalCoder]

You are using Alt (the right one I think) as a modifier to get access to a second layout of functions.

I'm actually using the key at the left of the space bar with {ijkl}. If I was using right alt I'd be using {esdf} instead. I always try to alternate hands as much as possible and to maximize strong finger usage.

Note that I came up with my setup years ago: way, way before using {ijkl} became an "accepted" way to move the cursor around. Someone even called me "crazy" the day I mentioned I was using Emacs but with neither the arrow keys, neither ctrl+{pnbf} and neither vi(m)'s {hjkl} to move the cursor around (don't remember if it was IRC or Usenet or here or whatever).

I'm touch typing but with a few caveats: I never ever use my left thumb to hit the space bar, I never ever use right shift and I never ever use right ctrl (heck, quite some keyboards don't even have a right ctrl). Besides that I touch type everything (and I hate having to move my hands from their home position).

I've got quite a custom setup. For example in my Emacs (and IntelliJ) left-modifer+{uiojklm,.} are the most often used keys (the right pinky ins't involved for these). I don't use alt+x but "keys at the left of the spacebar + ," instead. I don't use ctrl+x but "key at the left of 'a' + ,", etc.

As a result of always using my right thumb to hit the spacebar, my left thumb is free to always be on the key at the left of the spacebar. Which is why I'm using that modifier + "any key easy to reach on the right hand" to enter the commands that I need the most often.

The big "elephant in the room" with the SpaceFn layout is that although it works on OS X and Windows, it doesn't work yet on Linux (I tried with xcape and you know the result).

By having a smaller spacebar I'd be a little bit more convenient for me to use my left thumb to hit the modifier(s) at the left of the spacebar (which is precisely where my left thumb is all the time anyway) and that's it.

Note that your SpaceFn layout isn't incompatible with a smaller spacebar: the day the SpaceFn layout works on Linux I'll be glad to use space as an additional modifier 

[TacticalCoder]

hhkbjp

Yup I'm considering that one but I already knew about it and I'm not sure I want to deal with all the unnecessary keys it has (to me, as a non-japanese user), which is why I mentioned "non-japanese".

Now of course I realize this might be a very good topre board and it might be great for me: after all I already have an HHKB and I love it.

So I may buy one, but first I wanted to know if there existed more "normal" keyboards (like US ANSI) with a smaller spacebar  ^  ^

That said on the hhkbjp the space bar is really tiny: even tinier than the one on the Filco minila.  But why not!

[Oobly]

ErgoDox?

Using the thumb more is a good thing, lets your pinkies do less work.

[dorkvader]

Another thing to consider is DIY. The original "7bit" phantom plates support small spacebars, and you can decide to solder as many keys as you want.

[tuxsavvy]

hhkbjp

Yup I'm considering that one but I already knew about it and I'm not sure I want to deal with all the unnecessary keys it has (to me, as a non-japanese user), which is why I mentioned "non-japanese".

Now of course I realize this might be a very good topre board and it might be great for me: after all I already have an HHKB and I love it.

So I may buy one, but first I wanted to know if there existed more "normal" keyboards (like US ANSI) with a smaller spacebar  ^  ^

That said on the hhkbjp the space bar is really tiny: even tinier than the one on the Filco minila. But why not!

I cannot simply let you go on the quote of saying the HHKB JP is tiny. There is nothing with a tiny spacebar as long as it is close to the centre of the keyboard. A touch typist would honestly never find an issue with a spacebar wide enough to fit their thumbs on plus or minus a few extra spaces.

Seriously, place your fingers on their "home" keys, then your thumbs on spacebar. Once you done that, have a good look how much space you actually need for your thumbs to simply travel and hit the spacebar. On my QWERTY keyboard regardless if I am on the HHKB JP or not I can easily see that my thumbs are quite close together. A touch typist does not need to use other fingers to hit the spacebar, that is why even when people start to learn to touch type properly they are/were taught to have their thumbs sitting squarely on the spacebar. The thumb only needs to hit the spacebar, unless you don't have eight fingers and two thumbs, unless you use some fancy layout where your thumb does not function as only hitting the spacebar and unless you aren't even touch typing (which for even single key presses, any old finger will do the job) there is not much other excuse.

The Japanese people also have keyboards that uses the thumb shift layout. These thumb shift layout not only has small spacebars but there is a split in between the spacebars meaning that it is even possible to technically hit the gap in between the two spacebars and maybe get some undesired effects as a result. If you (or anyone else) thinks the spacebar on any JIS keyboard is puny (even on HHKB JP) spare a thought or two for those that uses thumb shift layout for instance which may cause undesired effects if the keys were not hit correctly:


Now with the aesthetics issue aside and going into the practicality discussion. It did not take me all that long to migrate from the wide spacebars found on ISO/ANSI layouts to the small JIS layout keyboard notably obviously my HHKB JP. A fair few bad thumb taps (which could be related as a human error rather than the design flaw, namely to do with hand positioning) and I was able to make use of the small spacebar properly.

I have also tested out my typing speed before and after switching from a full sized (even with wide spacebar) keyboard to my HHKB JP (being 60% and narrower spacebar). I have noticed very minor speed loss as a result when typing English (which obviously like every other European languages where the need to use the space key is obviously a must to separate words). To be frank, I'll shamelessly say that I average around 61-65 wpm on my average full sized keyboard when typing English words. After a few moments of getting used to HHKB JP's small spacebar, I took the test on the exact same website, on my first try I managed to get 62wpm. The difference is, what.. 3wpm loss? Go figure. 

In all honesty the spacebar design on JIS keyboards is well thought out. In order to compensate for extra phonetic symbols for instance and to retain much of the ISO/ANSI layout without going too overboard in even relocating the spacebar to some other weird location. The spacebar is still placed on the centre of the keyboard knowing full well that touch typist only needs to use their thumbs to mainly hit the spacebar when for instance they need to write in European languages where spaces are needed. Most east Asian langauges that I know of does not need the spacebar to separate words, so a small spacebar is really a small compromise that I do not know why people would overlook such a trivial aesthetic loss and think that it is going to affect their typing speeds and all. "Oh! such horrors! look at how puny that spacebar is! I must go learn how to touch type properly..."  I also personally quite like that misconception, it probably would deter theives who wants to steal my beloved HHKB JP as well as to prevent someone else from using my computer because of the "oh such puny spacebar!" issue.

Last but not least, amazingly if HHKB JP were to sourced directly from Japan they are much cheaper than the Pro2 (which is mainly used to designate English layout variants of the current day and age). You lose the USB hub and the fancy HHKB logo printed on the bottom right hand side on the top of the keyboard for so much more extra keys that you can virtually program it to do whatever you want. The HHKB logo is still printed elsewhere, apart from being as a key, it is also printed on the front of the keyboard. HHKB has dedicated arrow keys, has right Control key (HHKB Pro2 does not have right Control key, only left Control key) and two buttons for right Shift at expense of a more appropriately sized single Shift key found on the left side of the keyboard. The right Super/Win key is also slightly narrower than on HHKB Pro2 as well. However I must insist that it is still a pretty good layout nonetheless for PFU to design it whilst trying to maintain JIS layout as well as retain the same dimensions of a 60% board that HHKB Pro2 has.

Here are my links to prove my findings (warning Japanese only):

• http://www.coneco.net/s/kw_Happy+Hacking+Professional-sr_price+asc-rw_50
• http://kakaku.com/search_results/Happy+Hacking+Keyboard+Professional/?category=&nkey=&act=Sort&sort=priceb

Notes:

• They are sorted with price ascending, meaning cheapest ones appear first.
• I believe all of these sellers do not ship outside Japan. It simply means that you will need to go through forwarding/proxy service such as tenso.com.

The Type-S variant (aka the factory fitted silenced Topre) according to PFU Direct (PFU online shop for ordering PFU manufactured stuff directly) is the same price for both Japanese and English variants. (Japanese only and of course similar catch as the shops listed above.): http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/direct/hhkb/

Forgot to mention here that the HHKB JP has a PBT spacebar. Unlike the HHKB Pro2 variant which has ABS spacebar and will most likely become yellow compared to the rest of the keys. The HHKB JP space bar I guess may wear as worse as other key caps on the board. Besides, if you really don't like the small space bar, you can probably swap out the spacebar from your HHKB Pro2. I am not sure if it would be a simple ordeal or not so I would actually research the possibility. Apart from that, even if you managed to retrofit the spacebar, the question also lies in the aesthetic ultimately when using some other spacebar. For instance the space proceeding to and after the space bar.

[TacticalCoder]

I cannot simply let you go on the quote of saying the HHKB JP is tiny

Ah ah, I agree with you... I always hit it at the same spot indeed and now, after reading your message, I think that it's quite large enough!

I've got three more quick questions for you...

The thumb only needs to hit the spacebar

As I wrote: my right-thumb, yes. The space and only the spacebar and I only ever use my right-thumb to hit the spacebar (I know some people do alternate thumbs on the spacebar, like the true gods of touch-typing did envision it... But I'm a pagan from that standpoint: I do still believe in the touch-typing religion, but I only use my right thumb to hit the spacebar and that's not gonna change).

Which then means my left thumb is free. Which is precisely why I want modifiers closer to the spacebar: because the finger I use to press the modifier at the left of the spacebar (called 'diamond' or whatever on my HHKB Pro 2) is my left-thumb. So the closer the modifiers to the center, the faster and the more comfortable it is for me to hit it.

I'd follow Oobly's hint to try an ErgoDox but sadly after 30 years on staggered keyboards I simply cannot adapt to matrix layout (I tried very hard on my shiny R&D white ALPS split matrix board but simply can't. I just can't. My brain has been permanently damaged and matrix layouts aren't for me. Moreover I want something close enough to the non-ergonomic keyboards that I've always used. And, no, stop PM'ing about that R&D board: I'm not selling it ; )

Are all the HHKB Professional JP using Topre switches? For example I like the black "Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional JP 墨 PD-KB420B" at about 19800 JPY / 192 USD / 143 Euros.

Of course it has the "weird" ISO like Enter key but I don't care much about that anymore: I'm basically only using the physical subset of keys common to both ANSI and ISO keyboards (and now I'm happily mixing ANSI and ISO keyboards in my collection).

Having stuff shipped from Japan to me ain't an issue: I've got a contact in Japan coming once in a while to my country (that's how I got my HHKB Pro 2)

The coneco.net site you gave seems to be cheaper than amazon.co.jp (which is the one I typically use): is coneco.net known to be cheaper than amazon.co.jp? (but my contact has free shipping to Japan on amazon.co.jp, don't know about coneco.net)

Would you recommend the silent version? (I'm happy with my regular HHKB Pro 2 and before that I had floss-modded Model Ms so I take it it's not that important)

Do you know how the references work for the silent / non-silent version and Topre / non-Topre version? For example is PD-KB420B going to be silent or not? (I think the last 'B' is for 'Black' but besides that I'm not too sure).

Thanks for your very long message... Seen that I like Topre I think I'll got the HHKB JP route: I was asking here in case something else existed... In case the Filco minila existed with Topre I would have bought that: there are going to be many keys I won't be using on the HHKB JP and it just seems a bit "weird" to buy a keyboard with many unnecessary keys but whatever 

[utku]

@tacticalcoder fyi, i just posted a working linux configuration in the original spacefn thread.

[tuxsavvy]

I cannot simply let you go on the quote of saying the HHKB JP is tiny

Ah ah, I agree with you... I always hit it at the same spot indeed and now, after reading your message, I think that it's quite large enough!

I've got three more quick questions for you...

I apologise if sort of ripped you a new hole. I have seen too many people complain/moan about HHKB JP's small spacebar that basically bottled up my rage and eventually let it all out.

The issue is trivial but when thinking about it, it can probably help deter people wanting to borrow your keyboard for instance when they see the small spacebar.

The thumb only needs to hit the spacebar

As I wrote: my right-thumb, yes. The space and only the spacebar and I only ever use my right-thumb to hit the spacebar (I know some people do alternate thumbs on the spacebar, like the true gods of touch-typing did envision it... But I'm a pagan from that standpoint: I do still believe in the touch-typing religion, but I only use my right thumb to hit the spacebar and that's not gonna change).

Which then means my left thumb is free. Which is precisely why I want modifiers closer to the spacebar: because the finger I use to press the modifier at the left of the spacebar (called 'diamond' or whatever on my HHKB Pro 2) is my left-thumb. So the closer the modifiers to the center, the faster and the more comfortable it is for me to hit it.

I'd follow Oobly's hint to try an ErgoDox but sadly after 30 years on staggered keyboards I simply cannot adapt to matrix layout (I tried very hard on my shiny R&D white ALPS split matrix board but simply can't. I just can't. My brain has been permanently damaged and matrix layouts aren't for me. Moreover I want something close enough to the non-ergonomic keyboards that I've always used. And, no, stop PM'ing about that R&D board: I'm not selling it ; )

Are all the HHKB Professional JP using Topre switches? For example I like the black "Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional JP 墨 PD-KB420B" at about 19800 JPY / 192 USD / 143 Euros.

Of course it has the "weird" ISO like Enter key but I don't care much about that anymore: I'm basically only using the physical subset of keys common to both ANSI and ISO keyboards (and now I'm happily mixing ANSI and ISO keyboards in my collection).

Having stuff shipped from Japan to me ain't an issue: I've got a contact in Japan coming once in a while to my country (that's how I got my HHKB Pro 2)

The coneco.net site you gave seems to be cheaper than amazon.co.jp (which is the one I typically use): is coneco.net known to be cheaper than amazon.co.jp? (but my contact has free shipping to Japan on amazon.co.jp, don't know about coneco.net)

Would you recommend the silent version? (I'm happy with my regular HHKB Pro 2 and before that I had floss-modded Model Ms so I take it it's not that important)

Do you know how the references work for the silent / non-silent version and Topre / non-Topre version? For example is PD-KB420B going to be silent or not? (I think the last 'B' is for 'Black' but besides that I'm not too sure).

Thanks for your very long message... Seen that I like Topre I think I'll got the HHKB JP route: I was asking here in case something else existed... In case the Filco minila existed with Topre I would have bought that: there are going to be many keys I won't be using on the HHKB JP and it just seems a bit "weird" to buy a keyboard with many unnecessary keys but whatever 

Yeah when I switched to my HHKB JP, I realised I hit the spacebar more often with my right thumb than my left. Though at the same time I guess I should also try practising hitting the spacebar more with my left thumb. With my HHKB JP now, I guess the need to flex those thumbs around a bit more and or to use fingers on other positions for cases where such keys did not exist once in ISO/ANSI layout. I guess at this rate I am also on the same level as you, a pagan.

I personally have never tried the matrix (grid like) layout, so for me to try something learning that would probably be as difficult as it is right now for me when I have deliberately mapped my keyboard as a JIS keyboard. Meaning whatever characters I see on my HHKB JP, if I were to hit it I get exactly that character instead of whatever it was for the ISO/ANSI layout. So far it has been somewhat a bit of a struggle, so I too can imagine if I were to eventually swich to matrix layout keyboard.

Can you sell me your R&D white ALPS split matrix keyboard please?  *kidding*

Now onto your questions:

Answer 1: As far as I know of all HHKB Pro are Topre based. I don't think PFU would try and confuse one even more further by mixing Topre with membrane keyboard. Hint, from the links that I posted before if you were to omit the words Professional, you would see the prices of the Lite2 variants. There is at least a gap of about three times the price difference between a Lite2 versus any Professional. Even wikipedia for instance would label that as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard#Features_by_model The model number scheme is quite different at that.

Yeah the weird ISO like enter key is the same as with virtually any JIS keyboards. I guess JIS keyboards somewhat loosely follows the ISO layout but instead swapping a few keys here and there and adding extra keys. I too have a mixture of ISO as well as ANSI layout boards though it seems like I am more well versed with ISO layout than ANSI.

Answer 2: coneco.net is the same as kakaku.com. All they are, are just price aggregators, they aren't a shop but they list the prices of shops for instance that would sell the same product.

For a shop to list their prices lower than amazon I guess is quite rare. It is almost like as if the shop is wanting to battle against the "goliath". In any case the price may not last that long for that shop or otherwise I would start questioning the genuine factor of the same product.

hasu who wrote and now maintains the TMK firmware as well as one of the people that I see is residing in Japan even recommended amazon.co.jp for usually the best price: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47559.msg1078907#msg1078907

Aesthetically, the site layout is similar to that of found on amazon. So for them to list amazon but not of another similar site that aggregates prices would be the norm I guess.

Answer 3: Type-S or not subject still remains hot amazingly enough. It ultimately boils down to personal preferences. I have sort of went through the differences on Type-S versus standard in another thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51598.0

I also have made my reasonings fairly clear with my HHKB purchase on my own created thread (hint: my signature contains a link), the reasons also include why I prefer Type-S as well.

What I didn't realise until later was that people whom bought their HHKB from elitekeyboards for instance are allowed to return it if there was a defect or something with the said product. Buying for instance HHKB JP does not have that option as I have mentioned that in my post above for Type-S comparison.

To have factory fitted silencing I guess with warranty gives one the option to return it back to manufacturer if there was an issue within a year worth of use, of course to retro fit silencing when your keyboard does not have that by default would most likely instantly void warranty if applicable. However the case again does not apply to HHKB JP as far as I know. HHKB JP cannot be sourced from elitekeyboards so that means the only choice is to source it directly from Japan.

As for model numbering scheme, I am not an expert. Though it seems according to both that wikipedia link that I posted above along with deskthority wiki: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_OEM_Keyboards#Compact it seems the silenced variants are labelled with "S" on the model number. So in your case having the letter "B" apart from the numbers and whatever else just means that it is labelled, gray (or charcoal gray, not black actually) and not silenced. If it were to be silenced it would have something that ends with BS, and maybe blank and gray with silencing it would be BNS.

The model numbering scheme appears to be more consistent somewhat as of late on the Pro series.

I really do not know why PFU would designate charcoal gray professional keyboard as "B". It doesn't really mean black as a real black keyboard would be legendless consdering how either PFU/Realforce or whomever manufactured the key caps can only print black legends. In other words, black legends on black keyboard results in black and legendless keyboard. Maybe they want to keep using "B" in consistence with Lite2 variants?

Black Lite2 are really black but instead of having black legended keys, it is white. Whereas the black featured on the Professional series is more like gray with black lettering.

If you are curious, the Japanese word for black is 黒 (kuro/くろ). You can see that doesn't even look the exact same as 墨 (sumi/すみ) which according to Google translate, it means ink.

As for other keyboards with Topre switch, you will find that is a rare option. There aren't many manufacturers using Topre switches compared to Cherry MX switches. The case is even more magnified when it comes to 60% boards as PFU is the only manufacturer that I know of which still produces 60% keyboards with Topre layout (or maybe at least that they license the design to some other manufacturer). I personally wouldn't know of any other 60% keyboards that would have the features that you want whilst retaining the 60% layout and specifically HHKB style. A custom keyboard might do it otherwise.

I actually thought it is pretty amusing how at the beginning you stated on the thread that you don't want to go through the HHKB JP route and to have someone ultimately saying exactly just that. Otherwise I wouldn't have had any further worthy comments to add.

[davkol]

Just a thought... BTC 8120? It'd probably need some heavy modifications, but it's an interesting starting point, if you don't want an ergodox.