Author Topic: Blue ALPS? (Read 9333 times)

billm · « **on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 18:07:57 »

So I was doing a project for some people last week and I needed a SATA cable. I had one at home but I didn't want to go all the way back to get it, so I stopped by a computer/junk shop near their place to pick one up.

They had a box full of SATA cables for $1 but I didn't have any cash and the guy didn't want to run my debit card for a dollar, so I was looking around, trying to see what else I could buy to get up to an amount that he'd be willing to run the card for. Everything in the place was junk, some of it enticing junk, but junk nonetheless and I'm trying to weed out the junk in my life. No closet that junk avalanches out of, no junk drawer, no junk period. No more dark corners.

The guy had a milk crate full of keyboards that I'd poked through earlier but they were all crap. Finally I asked him if he had any clicky keyboards. The guy perked up and said, "I save them out in a special place". Then he showed me his AT101W and pointed me to the box of the good stuff.

Anyway, he had 10-20 clicky boards, none which really struck my fancy except one. It had a nice feel and an interesting, compact layout. In the end he ran my card for $6 and I took my new board and my sata cable, threw the board in the trunk and went on my way.

I just pulled it out today and did a bit of research. It's a Leading Edge DC-2014. I googled a bit and there are people claiming they go for $90-$100 on ebay. Seriously? Why?

Anyway, here are pics. The guy had another one that was less clean than the one I grabbed. I may have to go back down there and get it.

Chloe · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 18:18:11 »

Nice find. I don't know why they go for so much. By the muted colour of the stem it looks like they are not simplified, although the only way to know would be to take one apart. If they are not simplified then I would say it is worth more.

Here is a picture of fake blue ALPS for comparison:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/fk2001/swassybl2_s.jpg

wellington1869 · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 19:25:22 »

Quote

I googled a bit and there are people claiming they go for $90-$100 on ebay. Seriously? Why?

Anyway, here are pics. The guy had another one that was less clean than the one I grabbed. I may have to go back down there and get it.

so you just got paid $200 to buy a sata cable

How does the switch feel? Like regular white alps?

billm · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 20:01:44 »

I guess it feels like a regular white alps, though I'm not entirely certain I know what that feels like anymore. It reminds me of an old Wyse keyboard.

Incidentally, I think these black ALPS in the micro connectors board may be so loud because of the type of plastic the keys are made of. The appear to be black but on close inspection they're some form of thin translucent plastic from the "flavors" mac era. They seem extra resonant.

I would guess the blue alps in the leading edge board are not simplified. The whole thing is pretty solid. I think also that there may be some collectors market for old Leading Edge computers, hence the high asking prices. From what I've been able to glean, it was one of the first popular PC clones that was widely adopted for home use.

Chloe · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 20:13:53 »

I think the Micro Connectors were made by Strong Man so they probably have simplified ALPS.

I find the simplified ALPS in my KPT-84 sound louder than the real ALPS in my Ortek but there are other differences that could be the cause.

cmr · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 21:01:28 »

I save them out in a special place.

billm · « **Reply #6 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 21:14:51 »

Well, I was trying not to give up my source but:

wellington1869 · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 21:39:46 »

Quote from: billm;18870

Well, I was trying not to give up my source but:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=625LPUACix0

hey thats pretty cool. I think about doing something like this for the university every now and then (people throw out perfectly good machines all the time).

sandy55 · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 19 January 2009, 23:52:08 »

No need to pull out upper housing to check switching assy if it is real or fake/copy. DC2014 uses real alps/blues, and is XT based keyboard. It didn't work with ( at least ) my Windows PCs. Unless you don't have an appropriate converter to use with, it's useless. But it still be a good source for alps/blues if it is cheap. Some may pay $200 for it but I won't. Overpriced Leading Edge DC3014 which xsphat reorted before is also a good quality keyboard with alps/blues but it was actually overpriced even though it is usable with recent PCs.

> billm
You'd better to go back to the shop and grab the another one no matter how it is less clean. Hopefully, for same price you paid. You can reuse those switches for another alps boards and also you can use most of keycaps of text keys....thick and double injection molded high quality key caps.
SGI AT-101 will be a good base board for blues moding.

xsphat · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 00:01:12 »

That's a great idea, Sandy. I like the way you think about this kind of stuff. Have you ever had different kinds of switches on the same keyboard? If I built a custom mounting plate, would an Alps and a Cherry on the same board work?

And by the way, no one has bid on this AT101 yet ...

sandy55 · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 01:23:43 »

Quote from: xsphat;18879

Have you ever had different kinds of switches on the same keyboard?

For example, Chicony KB-5181/5191( and probably 5161) came with alps, cherry, smk. But PCBs are slightly different ( modified to suite with switches )

Quote from: xsphat;18879

I built a custom mounting plate, would an Alps and a Cherry on the same board work?

No, unfortunately. If you examine specs of both switches, you may see there are at least two deferences.
one is pitch of switching leads and the other is dimensions. You can't use alps switch on cherry face plate neither cherry on alps face plate.
Using whole assemblies of differents switches ( PCB/face plate/switches ) into same outer case is somehow possible like chicony keyboards above depending on inner construction/layout.

The reason I wrote "SGI AT-101" is, quality of outer case and key caps are superior than other alps boards which we can get reasonablly cheap these days. SGI At-101 plus alps blues from cheap DC2014 (which billm got luckily, for example ) would be very close to said Over Priced DC-3015.

xsphat · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 02:08:15 »

Sandy, thanks for your answer, and I have another question for you if you don't mind.

Why is it that the Northgate keys I use in My MK96 feel great on Alps whites and feel mushy on Alps blacks? are the stem sizes different?

sandy55 · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 07:29:03 »

Quote from: xsphat;18885

Why is it that the Northgate keys I use in My MK96 feel great on Alps whites and feel mushy on Alps blacks? are the stem sizes different?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you talking about. Situation is not clear to me. Are you talking about key caps? Seems like you are asking "why is it that "Double injection molded caps of Northgate feel great on Alps-ish switches of MK96 and feel mushy on Alps black stem key switches"

As for stem sizes, I think stem sizes of all real alps are basically same though I have not ever measured every real alps stems ( but please note that Chloe pointed that rubber dampered stem is deferent from non-dampered stem in another thread. I myself haven't checked precisely yet ).

itlnstln · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 07:43:56 »

In one thread, I remember Wellington noting that there were some slight size differences in the key stems causing issues using different stems with different keycaps.

lowpoly · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 07:53:35 »

Quote from: xsphat;18885

Why is it that the Northgate keys I use in My MK96 feel great on Alps whites and feel mushy on Alps blacks? are the stem sizes different?

Maybe the travel is slightly different. On one switch the keycap hits the top of the switch and on the other one not. Just a guess.

Chloe · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 08:04:13 »

I don't have any black ALPS to compare. Cream/dampers and white stems protrude ~4mm from casing. Simplified cream stem protrudes ~3.5mm. When I swapped cream/dampers and white stem there was no difference.

sandy55 · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 09:38:31 »

Quote from: itlnstln;18912

In one thread, I remember Wellington noting that there were some slight size differences in the key stems causing issues using different stems with different keycaps.

I think deferences are not in key stems but in keycaps. Strictly speaking a little square projection inside keycaps ( so, please teach me how do you call it in your language, if possible ).

ALPS key switches were supposed to be made using basically same mold ( please do not talk about minor deference btwn YLW and GRN or ditches in dampered stem ) while key caps were designed and then molded by manufacturers with their own molds designed based on specs provided by ALPS. Off course there may be deferences even in ALPS made stems in micro view point because ALPS didn't use ONLY one mold ( I mean *in actual production lines*. using only ONE mold in physical tern is impossible for mass production ) for making stems. Do you think dimension of projections inside key caps made by various key cap molders could be more accurate comparing to stems made with essentially single mold?
I don't think so. And most of you have experienced that some caps of some boards are rather loosely sit on stems but the others are really in tight connection and hard to pull off from stems.
And I think same story could be applied to Cherry MXs. For example, caps of my TG3 backlit is really loosely fit on the stem, these are easily fall out from the board. I don't need a key cap puller to pull out key caps from my TG3 board.

Quote from: Chloe;18914

Cream/dampers and white stems protrude ~4mm from casing. Simplified cream stem protrudes ~3.5mm. When I swapped cream/dampers and white stem there was no difference.

Oh, sorry Chloe. You DID mention about deference btwn one of simplified and real with dampers. it was recorded in some bad clusters in my brain.

edit; changed from less to more . little mistake but big deference in context.

itlnstln · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 09:43:00 »

Quote

Oh, sorry Chloe. You DID mention about deference btwn one of simplified and real with dampers. it was recorded in some bad clusters in my brain.

You might want to perform a chkdsk. Just don't fdisk yourself. I find that I need to defrag every once in awhile, too.

billm · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 17:04:33 »

I went back to that place today and actually got 2 more Leading Edge boards. I now have 2 DC-2014s and a DC-3014. I have no idea what I'm going to do with them but for $5/ea. I figured why not.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 18:39:53 »

I think that means you're a switchaholic.

sandy55 · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 20 January 2009, 20:00:34 »

Quote from: billm;18978

I went back to that place today and actually got 2 more Leading Edge boards. I now have 2 DC-2014s and a DC-3014. I have no idea what I'm going to do with them but for $5/ea. I figured why not.

What you need to do is ask the seller and dig out one more DC-3014 so that you can send it to me for few more dollars plus shipping.

Practical advice
1. Check if every keys in DC-2014 feel fine and smooth when pressing. Unless those boards have been kept out of doors, it might keep smoothness in it's action.
2. Keep DC-2014 for a while and read every moding thread in this forum.
3. get a SGI AT-101 p/n 9500829 or 9500900 in good condition ( cosmetically )
4. If you are not good at soldering, follow to next. if you are, then skip step 5 and go to step 6

5. just swap stems, coil springs, leaf springs ( if you don't like clicking sound, you may use leaf springs from SGI switches.

Bit complicated method in case you are good at soldering
6. De-solder all key modules from SGI board ( keep them for future usage )
7. De-solder all blue key modules from DC-2014 carefully. do not break pins.
8. Solder eery blue key modules which you pulled in step5 above
9. Hook th board to your pc and check if every keys work fine.
10. If possible pull out upper housing of evry key modulues and wash upper housings and key stems. take care so that you do not loose coil springs and leaf springs.
11. when parts get dried, put them back to key module bases.
You'd better to use liquid smoothing surface of stems and inner walls of upper housings. sample is here and here but it seems that it's hard to get one at your area. Do not use grease or mineral based oil.
12. put all parts back in switching base modules.
Now you have your own made High Quality Alps Blues Board.

As for DC-3015, I think ( though I don't have any ) it may outrace old Dell logo AT-101 . key actions are deferent with each other. but it may do. Build quality of casing and key caps of 3015 should be fine like DC-2014.

Congratulation! cheers for your DC-3015

sandy, a switchaholic

billm · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 21 January 2009, 00:41:47 »

Quote from: sandy55;19020

What you need to do is ask the seller and dig out one more DC-3014 so that you can send it to me for few more dollars plus shipping.

3. get a SGI AT-101 p/n 9500829 or 9500900 in good condition ( cosmetically )
4. If you are not good at soldering, follow to next. if you are, then skip
5. just swap stems, coil springs, leaf springs ( if you don't like clicking sound, you may use leaf springs from SGI switches.

Hi Sandy-

Thanks for the advice. What is the advantage of the alps blues over the white alps sliders that are in an SGI granite board? What's the point in switching them? Also, can you think of a hacker sized (no 10 key or smaller) board that these switches would easily swap into?

Thanks-
Bill

sandy55 · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 21 January 2009, 02:50:58 »

alps blues are the earlist version of so called "alps Bigfoot" lines. "Earliest" doesn't mean primitive or inferior and such as far as Bigfoot line concerns. blues are essentially "good" as clicky Bigfoot.

If you like SGI as it is, then you'd better to stay with it. If you like clicky sound and feels, you'd better to switch parts ( preferably modules ) to blues because you have GOOD blue switches already.

Off course you can use those switches for any kind of hacker-sized boards if you like. But it may be hard to find compact boards with high quality casing and key caps. And in this case, you have to skip step5 and go for step 6 and after because, in most case, those hacker sized keyboards use simplified/fake alps. just swapping stems is meaningless.

"Give not pearls to the h*gs."......... sorry but no flame war, please.

FYI, SGI AT-101 has alps white( or cream ) stem switches with dampers and is not clicky unlike white stem switches found on Northgate and others.

chimera15 · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 14:38:44 »

Just bought a dc-2014 to harvest the blues. Thanks a lot again Sandy if you're still around.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:44:39 »

That AT keyboard with blue ALPS is a neat old bugger. I bet it's got the old complicated ones.

ch_123 · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 15:57:31 »

As far as I can tell, the Blue Alps and 'original' White Alps are the same thing except for the colour.

EDIT: Sandy pointed this out a few posts up... Ignore this

microsoft windows · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 16:10:18 »

That's interesting.

chimera15 · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 17:12:33 »

Quote from: ch_123;133807

As far as I can tell, the Blue Alps and 'original' White Alps are the same thing except for the colour.

EDIT: Sandy pointed this out a few posts up... Ignore this

Yeah, but they're also prettier. lol

microsoft windows · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 17:35:08 »

Does it really matter with keys covering them up?

chimera15 · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 18:13:10 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;133870

Does it really matter with keys covering them up?

Psychologically yes. Sides I might make another steampunk/futuristic looking keyboard with them.

They're also great to take pictures of. A board full of blue alps is a beautiful sight. lol

Hmm, I wonder if someone has cast clear caps before... I have the ability to do casts in resin. That might actually be super awesome.

That macally keyboard had clear alps caps right?

chimera15 · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 18:31:15 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;133799

That AT keyboard with blue ALPS is a neat old bugger. I bet it's got the old complicated ones.

Sandy said they're xt, but looking at this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leading-Edge-DC-2014-Keyboard-Blue-Sliders_W0QQitemZ280400985276QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4149337cbc

He said he tested it and it works? None of the other auctions list them as xt either. I half wonder if they're switchable at least, if not at.

They're nice f format keyboards if they actually work as at, they'd be pretty nice.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 18 November 2009, 19:28:49 »

On closer inspection, the keyboard is in fact an XT. It has no lock lights and has the 83-key layout. It's still a neat keyboard on the other hand and $6 isn't too much.

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Author Topic: Blue ALPS? (Read 9333 times)