Gaming - Topre 45g or Cherry MX Red?

[MKULTRA]

In terms of durability though, will they be the same? I ask because one of my main concerns is how long the keyboard lasts and is perfectly functional.

They will both take quite a lot of abuse.  At Topre's price range you could possibly get a custom MX keyboard in the classifieds.  At $150 you could buy a Filco which is pretty much the most durable production MX keyboard you can get.

tl;dr durablity of both are great.

I've had 2 Filcos and 1 QFR fail due to the controllers going bad.

Just because you have had that experience doesn't mean they are all inherently bad.

[PointyFox]

In terms of durability though, will they be the same? I ask because one of my main concerns is how long the keyboard lasts and is perfectly functional.

They will both take quite a lot of abuse.  At Topre's price range you could possibly get a custom MX keyboard in the classifieds.  At $150 you could buy a Filco which is pretty much the most durable production MX keyboard you can get.

tl;dr durablity of both are great.

I've had 2 Filcos and 1 QFR fail due to the controllers going bad.

Just because you have had that experience doesn't mean they are all inherently bad.

I see what you did there.

Can you say "straw man"?

[MKULTRA]

In terms of durability though, will they be the same? I ask because one of my main concerns is how long the keyboard lasts and is perfectly functional.

They will both take quite a lot of abuse.  At Topre's price range you could possibly get a custom MX keyboard in the classifieds.  At $150 you could buy a Filco which is pretty much the most durable production MX keyboard you can get.

tl;dr durablity of both are great.

I've had 2 Filcos and 1 QFR fail due to the controllers going bad.

Just because you have had that experience doesn't mean they are all inherently bad.

I see what you did there.

Can you say "straw man"?

I actually had to look that up lol.

[Polymer]

On a separate note, the build quality of the Japanese boards makes the keys far smoother than they're Cherry counterparts. There's a lot more key "wobble" in Cherry keys. The Topres on the other hand have very little lateral play. Probably a combination of the switch and the lower tolerances for the keys and housings.

I'll say that from personal experience that's completely inaccurate. I've tried moose's HHKB and he was the first one to tell (and show) that the keys had just as much wobble. It's 100% the keycaps. If you have tight caps, there'll be no wobble. But a rubber dome under a spring with less lifetime can hardly be considered a higher tolerance.

The tolerance would have nothing to do w/ the rubber dome or the spring in this case.  It would have to do w/ the plunger and the keycaps.

Very tight fitting MX Keycaps might have less wobble than normal....but the very nature of cherry mx which has some wobble by virtue of how it is made (there is play within the switch itself) vs. a much larger round plungers means Topre will be more stable on a regular basis and really, if you've used a HHKB, you'd should have noticed this.  Topres wobble very little and feel incredibly stable on off center hits (as a test).  MX keycaps will have a bit more give on off center hits and wobble considerably more. 

I'm not sure if you're going to buy a Topre board..but considering how much you type, I can completely imagine you being a Topre convert at some point...you'll come back to these posts in a year or two and laugh...

[Linkbane]

On a separate note, the build quality of the Japanese boards makes the keys far smoother than they're Cherry counterparts. There's a lot more key "wobble" in Cherry keys. The Topres on the other hand have very little lateral play. Probably a combination of the switch and the lower tolerances for the keys and housings.

I'll say that from personal experience that's completely inaccurate. I've tried moose's HHKB and he was the first one to tell (and show) that the keys had just as much wobble. It's 100% the keycaps. If you have tight caps, there'll be no wobble. But a rubber dome under a spring with less lifetime can hardly be considered a higher tolerance.

The tolerance would have nothing to do w/ the rubber dome or the spring in this case.  It would have to do w/ the plunger and the keycaps.

Very tight fitting MX Keycaps might have less wobble than normal....but the very nature of cherry mx which has some wobble by virtue of how it is made (there is play within the switch itself) vs. a much larger round plungers means Topre will be more stable on a regular basis and really, if you've used a HHKB, you'd should have noticed this.  Topres wobble very little and feel incredibly stable on off center hits (as a test).  MX keycaps will have a bit more give on off center hits and wobble considerably more. 

I'm not sure if you're going to buy a Topre board..but considering how much you type, I can completely imagine you being a Topre convert at some point...you'll come back to these posts in a year or two and laugh...

Perhaps off-center hits may be better, it's not really my concern. I type and hit completely on the center of every key 100% of the time, so that's never been an issue. I obviously see things differently from you, because the HHKB still had significant play; I remarked to moose that it felt slightly less, but he assured me that it was the grass effect. When you talk about feeling incredibly stable, a steel plate feels incredibly stable. I don't think that a Topre would feel any more stable as an MX, because the Blues and Reds which I used are completely stable.

And maybe I will get a Topre board, when I have more time. But I would never type quickly on it, because the actuation is at the top, a serious issue if you don't want to bottom out. Perhaps for comfort, but not for speed. Check on me in a year, see if I'm laughing at myself or till hating on Topre, eh?

[Polymer]

I think you'd be surprised at how you'll type on them but either way, the switch itself is more stable and it isn't a grass is greener thing, it actually is more stable.  I'm not talking subjectively but objectively, as it has less play (this is a fact).  Now, whether or not that makes a difference to you or any other person, who knows...it will be completely subjective to each individual. 

As far as a year or two...People change opinions all the time...their tastes and preferences change...you see people on here do it all the time between different switches... Plenty of former Topre haters come around.  I personally like both switches for different reasons and for different uses...

[danrew]

I think Polymer's reasoning is sound. I apologize for misdirecting the thread on manufacturing tolerances. I just couldn't put into words what Polymer could.

Looking at the design of the switch, Topre's should have less lateral play or "wobble".

If you imagine Cherry switches as a "square stem within a square hole" and a Topre as a "cylinder stem sitting inside a circular hole" it makes sense that the Cherry switch will have more left right up down play since those are the only directions it can move. Resulting in perceived increase of play in those directions.

The Topre switches also wobble but since it is a circle within a circle it doesn't have any obvious directions of play even if play is present. Resulting in less perceived play.

I don't know that there is any objective way to measure this feeling, only that the Topre boards feel like they wobble less.

[danrew]

I don't fully understand the aversion to bottoming out, but it seems unnatural to me. I almost always type faster when I don't think about bottoming out. Speed aside, I'm also a lot more accurate when I intentionally bottom out.

[Linkbane]

I don't fully understand the aversion to bottoming out, but it seems unnatural to me. I almost always type faster when I don't think about bottoming out. Speed aside, I'm also a lot more accurate when I intentionally bottom out.

The point is that you can type much faster when doing so lightly rather than slamming on your board. When you achieve higher speeds, it requires the use of light fingers and hands. I initially was the same, but more training increased my speed by somewhere around 10 wpm. Also, better for your fingers over long (or short, more intense) sessions of typing.

[Polymer]

Again, I still disagree with this...There is still a matter of speed, at what level you can stop your fingers and move them, adjust, etc...fact is, the fastest typers out there DO bottom out.  We've had this discussion before.  People, when typing their fastest, tend to bottom out.  Even you bottom out.  Just on your single video it looks like you bottom out a lot of the time...You might be bottoming out lightly but you do bottom out. In an ideal world, people wouldn't need to worry about it because they would press on every keystroke with every key in every combination..but that isn't reality. 

To me the idea of not bottoming out at all and typing for speed is a bit of a pipe dream..still haven't seen anyone do it...a lot can do it very lightly but they're still bottoming....I'll say this again so there is no confusion.  Bottoming out does not mean you're slamming each individual key..it merely means you are hitting the bottom in any way...

Also...Topre feels nothing like browns IMO..Topre really is a lot like a normal rubber dome keyboard except it is more stable, it feels stable all the way down, the movement of the switch up and down is not the least bit wobbly or unstable.  They feel very smooth as in the movement is very smooth..not that it doesn't have a tactile bump..which it does.  Most RD keyboards are relatively smooth and some are just as smooth but many are not.   They also actuate before you hit bottom and don't require you to bottom out at all.  They also feel a lot more solid when you hit the bottom..if feels like your keyboard is solid, not mushy...

[Linkbane]

Again, I still disagree with this...There is still a matter of speed, at what level you can stop your fingers and move them, adjust, etc...fact is, the fastest typers out there DO bottom out.  We've had this discussion before.  People, when typing their fastest, tend to bottom out.  Even you bottom out.  Just on your single video it looks like you bottom out a lot of the time...You might be bottoming out lightly but you do bottom out. In an ideal world, people wouldn't need to worry about it because they would press on every keystroke with every key in every combination..but that isn't reality. 

I might bottom out maybe 30% of the time, but that's something that is to be reduced. You're just plain wrong, fast typists don't bottom out because it's just impossible to type very quickly without bottoming out. You're living in your own self-excusing fantasy, as you obviously don't know anything about fast typing, and cannot tell how I'm typing, which I'll chalk up to the poor audio.

[Polymer]

No one else has produced any video with anything close to reasonable speed without any bottoming out...You still bottom out a lot...more than you probably think....

Wrona bottoms out..his competition in those typing competition videos bottoms out....You can make all the excuses about why that you want..but those are facts..

I'll change my mind with proof...maybe some day you'll prove me wrong doing 150+ without any bottoming out...

You've come up with some idea that not bottoming is the ideal way to type so really, I'm not the one in fantasy land since all the facts are on my side...it is the guy with the idealist dreams in his head......Again, prove me wrong.  I'll gladly admit it. 

[Linkbane]

No one else has produced any video with anything close to reasonable speed without any bottoming out...You still bottom out a lot...more than you probably think....

Wrona bottoms out..his competition in those typing competition videos bottoms out....You can make all the excuses about why that you want..but those are facts..

I'll change my mind with proof...maybe some day you'll prove me wrong doing 150+ without any bottoming out...

You've come up with some idea that not bottoming is the ideal way to type so really, I'm not the one in fantasy land since all the facts are on my side...it is the guy with the idealist dreams in his head......Again, prove me wrong.  I'll gladly admit it.

You're frankly a waste of time and effort to talk to. You throw out accusations and then assume that I care about your meaningless drivel enough to waste time making a video. If you think that actually applies, have fun. I don't really care about a deluded fool one way or another.

[Polymer]

You're frankly a waste of time and effort to talk to. You throw out accusations and then assume that I care about your meaningless drivel enough to waste time making a video. If you think that actually applies, have fun. I don't really care about a deluded fool one way or another.

Yet last time you made a video (which only proved me correct). 

Seriously, man up, learn to admit when you're wrong or that you don't know everything.  A lot of growing up to do on your part and before you decided to respond to this, remember, your mom still pays for your Internet access, obviously you have a lot of growing up to do..

[lonedruid]

@tacticalstache
 Really? Dota 2 players got use topre? It will be nothing short of orgasmic to see them wielding the power of tgod. But I never see one use. You means the pros or ur fren?

[Linkbane]

You're frankly a waste of time and effort to talk to. You throw out accusations and then assume that I care about your meaningless drivel enough to waste time making a video. If you think that actually applies, have fun. I don't really care about a deluded fool one way or another.

Yet last time you made a video (which only proved me correct). 

Seriously, man up, learn to admit when you're wrong or that you don't know everything.  A lot of growing up to do on your part and before you decided to respond to this, remember, your mom still pays for your Internet access, obviously you have a lot of growing up to do..

You've never been anything but a pathetic little child who could do nothing but pick at my personal life. When you leave your parents' basement and the sad little bridge you live under, consider posting again. Meanwhile I'd suggest staying off of the internet and easing up on the amount of breathing for your superiority complex.
If you had anything to do other than troll, perhaps you would be somewhat appreciated on the forum, but instead you have proven yourself nothing but a self-important keyboard warrior. You are free to continue posting and derailing the thread further, I'm already done with your stupidity.

[Polymer]

I'm sorry the truth hurts so much but at least you're busying practicing your typing...life must be exciting..

But as I said, bottoming out isn't a big deal..it has proven (thus far) that it isn't a detriment to typing quickly as proven by the number of fast typers that bottom out. 

I'd definitely use Cherry MX Reds over Topre for gaming..just because I don't like the feel of Topre for games...any game really. 

In a pinch I'd probably be ok with using one but it doesn't feel right to me. 

[Linkbane]

I'm sorry the truth hurts so much but at least you're busying practicing your typing...life must be exciting..

But as I said, bottoming out isn't a big deal..it has proven (thus far) that it isn't a detriment to typing quickly as proven by the number of fast typers that bottom out. 

I'd definitely use Cherry MX Reds over Topre for gaming..just because I don't like the feel of Topre for games...any game really. 

In a pinch I'd probably be ok with using one but it doesn't feel right to me.

[hashbaz]

Linkbane and Polymer -- time to call it a night.  Stay on-topic or argue via PM please.