Author Topic: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?  (Read 6390 times)

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Offline spremino

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A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 17:03:00 »
Would manufacturing a clone of the IBM Space Saving involve any copyright infringements, logo aside?

It would clone the looks, possibly use switches instead of BS, and use the same key press to access the number layer.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 December 2013, 17:10:25 by spremino »
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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 17:10:14 »
The design is patented.  The logo is covered under trademark.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 17:11:13 »
But presumably, Unicomp still owns the patent.
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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 17:12:00 »
The design is patented.

I knew about the logo, but I have read somewhere -- here on GH, if I remember correctly -- that the patent could have expired.

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Offline esoomenona

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 18:15:55 »
Why would you want it to have anything other than BS?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 18:26:48 »
Why would you want it to have anything other than BS?

Probably because all other ten keyless keyboards are wimpy plastic toys.
Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
- Jimmy Carter 2015

Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 18:58:45 »
Why would you want it to have anything other than BS?

Probably because all other ten keyless keyboards are wimpy plastic toys.
Your candor is a breath of fresh air, sir.

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 19:52:14 »
Your candor is a breath of fresh air, sir.


Not everybody wants 3 steel plates in their keyboard like you and I do.
Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
- Jimmy Carter 2015

Offline Wildcard

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 19:55:50 »
The design is patented.

I knew about the logo, but I have read somewhere -- here on GH, if I remember correctly -- that the patent could have expired.


I believe that's the patent on buckling spring that may have elapsed meaning people could start manufacturing new boards with BS.

What are you really after spremino? Do you want the style of the SSK without buckling spring? Most winkeyless TKL boards use the same layout so I'm curious on what your end game is.


Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 07:39:48 »
Why would you want it to have anything other than BS?

Setting up from scratch a manufacturing process for BS would be expensive, because of the necessary fine tuning: when you are building a replica, people expect it to match the original in every aspect. On the other hand, alternative switches have enough fans, and manufacturing companies to build keyboards with them are readily available.

If my guess is wrong, and building a replica with BS could be affordable, then I would consider capacitive BS (IBM Model F) to open a new market.

Probably because all other ten keyless keyboards are wimpy plastic toys.

Give me five!

I believe that's the patent on buckling spring that may have elapsed meaning people could start manufacturing new boards with BS.

Are there any other patents involved? I can't think of any.

What are you really after spremino? Do you want the style of the SSK without buckling spring? Most winkeyless TKL boards use the same layout so I'm curious on what your end game is.

I need Windows keys and a ISO layout.

I'm sick and tired of looking for a high-quality tenkeyless keyboard to match my requirements, so I'm thinking of building my own and be done with it.

For a long time, I have been looking for a tenkeyless with:

- a standard ISO layout with Windows and Menu/Application keys;
- preferably light colour (like the Model M);
- clicky tactile (preferably stiff) switches that I could replace if I don't like them; apparently, that means Cherry greens or whites;
- preferably blank PBT key caps;
- a Caps Lock without step;

Unfortunately for me, such a keyboard doesn't exist. Apparently, there is enough market to cover the expenses of building it, albeit I know that I could have to manufacture a more mainstream product for other people, while customizing my own sample.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 09:19:24 by spremino »
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Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:15:48 »
Your candor is a breath of fresh air, sir.


Not everybody wants 3 steel plates in their keyboard like you and I do.

True, quite true.

To not stray off topic too much, I absolutely love this Model F and DO NOT see myself ever getting a different keyboard.

Recent keyboard fanatic.

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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:29:36 »
To not stray off topic too much, I absolutely love this Model F and DO NOT see myself ever getting a different keyboard.

I became curious and searched for the sound of a Model F: it has a pinging sound. Something that I didn't expect. I guess that its pleasurable feel compensates for the sound.
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Offline Parak

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:37:21 »
Not everybody wants 3 steel plates in their keyboard like you and I do.

Yeah, I'll have to pass on three steel plates, no thanks.


I demand 4, because the top case should be steel as well!
4704 boards, being of course entirely metal. That said, I could easily settle for an open frame capsense BS two part case with just the top and bottom being metal plates, similar to some 'custom' cherry boards. Which has it's own set of challenges of course, but that's a different discussion.. curved vs flat barrels, making new barrels and flippies, etc..

Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:45:02 »
To not stray off topic too much, I absolutely love this Model F and DO NOT see myself ever getting a different keyboard.

I became curious and searched for the sound of a Model F: it has a pinging sound. Something that I didn't expect. I guess that its pleasurable feel compensates for the sound.

Yeah, the pleasurable feel and amazing sound is definitely what makes the keyboard. I thought about floss-modding it, but then I fear Fohat will haunt my dreams. Haha.

Not everybody wants 3 steel plates in their keyboard like you and I do.

Yeah, I'll have to pass on three steel plates, no thanks.


I demand 4, because the top case should be steel as well!
4704 boards, being of course entirely metal. That said, I could easily settle for an open frame capsense BS two part case with just the top and bottom being metal plates, similar to some 'custom' cherry boards. Which has it's own set of challenges of course, but that's a different discussion.. curved vs flat barrels, making new barrels and flippies, etc..

FOUR PLATES YOU SAY?!?!?!

Oh Lawd.
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Offline JPG

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:53:58 »
Are you all sure the BS patent is expired?


Anyone could start making them again?
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:54:27 »
I became curious and searched for the sound of a Model F: it has a pinging sound. Something that I didn't expect. I guess that its pleasurable feel compensates for the sound.
Not all Fs sound the same. See above: the metal cased ones, for example.

Are you all sure the BS patent is expired?


Anyone could start making them again?

Quite sure. Patents last 20 years (in some cases longer, but in this case 20) and the model F patent is from 1977 and is now 36 years old. Model M patent was filed in 1983. Even taking the dates they were granted (1978 and 1985) gives plenty of time.

Model F patent http://www.google.com/patents?id=WpAwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
model M patent http://www.google.com/patents?id=mBc6AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:58:46 by dorkvader »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 11:57:27 »
I thought about floss-modding it, but then I fear Fohat will haunt my dreams.

I don't know what you mean. I floss-mod all of my Fs to keep peace in the household, but I really prefer them that way.
Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
- Jimmy Carter 2015

Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 12:02:18 »
I thought about floss-modding it, but then I fear Fohat will haunt my dreams.

I don't know what you mean. I floss-mod all of my Fs to keep peace in the household, but I really prefer them that way.
Ah, I thought you weren't a fan of it. My mistake.
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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 13:04:51 »

Not all Fs sound the same. See above: the metal cased ones, for example.


I don't know. I listened to this comparison:

Any samples of a nicely sounding Model F?


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Offline kyb

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 13:19:28 »
It would clone the looks, possibly use switches instead of BS

Other way round would be better. There are many TKL with switches. But there's only one TKL with buckling springs. I'd take a BS Filco TKL over a Blues SSK replica any day.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 13:23:38 by kyb »
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Offline eth0s

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 13:45:42 »
Would manufacturing a clone of the IBM Space Saving involve any copyright infringements, logo aside?

It would clone the looks, possibly use switches instead of BS, and use the same key press to access the number layer.

The appeal of old IBM keyboards is that they are old, thick, heavy and have buckling spring switches.  Also they have vintage appeal to people who romanticize the late '80's and early '90's as a golden era.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that, since in reality everything really was better back then:  economy, job market, stock market, less corporate crime, rising home prices, no wars, etc.)  But still, I think nostalgia for those bygone days is a big driver for the popularity of old IBM keyboards, even among people who were born after 1996.  That is why unicomp keyboards have never been as prized as the old, vintage IBM's even though they are virtually the same, at least in terms of the switches.  If you remake an IBM space saver with Cherry MX blue switches, you don't really have anything special.  And really, a Filco with blues would still be a better keyboard.  I'm not sure where this project would be going.  As for the patent issue, you can always get a license to produce.  You just need to kick back part of the profits to unicomp.
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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 14:23:01 »
The appeal of old IBM keyboards is that they are old, thick, heavy and have buckling spring switches.  Also they have vintage appeal to people who romanticize the late '80's and early '90's as a golden era.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that, since in reality everything really was better back then:  economy, job market, stock market, less corporate crime, rising home prices, no wars, etc.)  But still, I think nostalgia for those bygone days is a big driver for the popularity of old IBM keyboards, even among people who were born after 1996.  That is why unicomp keyboards have never been as prized as the old, vintage IBM's even though they are virtually the same, at least in terms of the switches.

I have a different opinion. I think that Model Ms are popular because most people who read enthusiastic reviews, don't know about modern alternatives. Most of the articles that I've read that touted the advantages of BS didn't mention Unicomp. Furthermore, as far as I can see, Unicomp apparently lacks the skills and/or the resources to promote their products.

If you remake an IBM space saver with Cherry MX blue switches, you don't really have anything special.  And really, a Filco with blues would still be a better keyboard.

I don't think so. Filcos are not high-end keyboards. I know because I bought one. 150€ and, within weeks, my keys shine, WTF?! In my opinion, Unicomp and Cherry are the only reliable manufacturers of durable decent mechanical keyboards. Interestingly, their keyboards are also cheaper. They may not be lookers, but they are closer to what I was looking for. However, no tenkeyless keyboards from them, otherwise I would have bought one already and had been done with it.

The problem with other manufacturers is that their keyboards are all alike. Such manufacturers rely on the mechanical nature of their keyboards for sales, while skimping over the rest.

If I were to manufacture keyboards, I would ensure that they were special, in a way that would be useful to users, while never chasing fashion trends. For instance, whilst many users have written that they find negative inclination more comfortable, no mechanical keyboard has feet on the front, only on the back.

I'm not sure where this project would be going.

Neither is any entrepreneur who starts something new ;)

As for the patent issue, you can always get a license to produce.  You just need to kick back part of the profits to unicomp.

I will investigate that, but I think that covering the expense of a production line for BS would be problematic. However, since I've seen Space Saving keyboards sold for 250$-350$, I may be wrong.

Thanks for your opinion.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 17:21:01 by spremino »
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Offline JPG

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 14:53:31 »
The appeal of old IBM keyboards is that they are old, thick, heavy and have buckling spring switches.  Also they have vintage appeal to people who romanticize the late '80's and early '90's as a golden era.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that, since in reality everything really was better back then:  economy, job market, stock market, less corporate crime, rising home prices, no wars, etc.)  But still, I think nostalgia for those bygone days is a big driver for the popularity of old IBM keyboards, even among people who were born after 1996.  That is why unicomp keyboards have never been as prized as the old, vintage IBM's even though they are virtually the same, at least in terms of the switches.

I have a different opinion. I think that Model Ms are popular because most people who read enthusiastic reviews, don't know about modern alternatives. Most of the articles that I've read that touted the advantages of BS didn't mention Unicomp. Furthermore, as far as I can see, Unicomp either lacks the skills to promote their products, or doesn't care.

If you remake an IBM space saver with Cherry MX blue switches, you don't really have anything special.  And really, a Filco with blues would still be a better keyboard.

I don't think so. Filcos are not high-end keyboards. I know because I bought one. 150€ and, within weeks, my keys shine, WTF?! In my opinion, Unicomp and Cherry are the only reliable manufacturers of durable decent mechanical keyboards. Interestingly, their keyboards are also cheaper. They may not be lookers, but they are closer to what I was looking for. However, no tenkeyless keyboards from them, otherwise I would have bought one already and had been done with it.

The problem with other manufacturers is that their keyboards are all alike. Such manufacturers rely on the mechanical nature of their keyboards for sales, while skimping over the rest.

If I were to manufacture keyboards, I would ensure that they were special, in a way that would be useful to users, while never chasing fashion trends. For instance, whilst many users have written that they use negative inclination more comfortable, no mechanical keyboard has feet on the front, only on the back.

I'm not sure where this project would be going.

Neither is any entrepreneur who starts something new ;)

As for the patent issue, you can always get a license to produce.  You just need to kick back part of the profits to unicomp.

I will investigate that, but I think that covering the expense of a production line for BS would be problematic. However, since I've seen Space Saving keyboards sold for 250$-350$, I may be wrong.

Thanks for your opinion.

People won't pay 250+$ for a replica of an ssk, but they would if you provide something unique with the quality of a Korean custom or the likes. I think that the BS switch is the key to your success here (pun intended) and if you could reproduce the F BS, or a new design of a BS switch with a similar feel to it, all of this in a custom layout with a nice metal case, then you would have an awesome product for enthusiasts, but your market would be mostly enthusiasts people and the cost would be high and risky.

But good luck with your project!
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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 15:30:08 »
People won't pay 250+$ for a replica of an ssk, but they would if you provide something unique with the quality of a Korean custom or the likes. I think that the BS switch is the key to your success here (pun intended) and if you could reproduce the F BS, or a new design of a BS switch with a similar feel to it, all of this in a custom layout with a nice metal case, then you would have an awesome product for enthusiasts, but your market would be mostly enthusiasts people and the cost would be high and risky.

A compact keyboard with Model F's switches surely would be unique and attractive, but we keyboard enthusiasts forget that less than that could still be marketable, as long as it's interesting. The Das Keyboard started as nothing more than a blank rubber dome, yet gained enough traction to make three series worthwhile.

By the way, I'm not thinking about becoming a keyboard manufacturer, but rather a keyboard artisan for a niche market that shares my typing needs.

But good luck with your project!

Thanks. We'll see. At the moment I'm globe-trotting, thus I must limit myself at the marketing search stage.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 15:32:54 by spremino »
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 23:15:47 »
The design is patented.  The logo is covered under trademark.
The outward appearance of a device may fall under a so called "Design Patent". It is not the same thing as a regular patent. Design patents at the US Patent Office have "numbers" starting with the letter 'D'.
Over in my country, the word "Patent" is not even used for this kind of thing. Instead it is called "Pattern Protection".

The buckling spring key switches are covered by separate (real) patents, but they have expired. You can find them in the Deskthority Wiki.

By the way, Why would you want to clone the IBM SSK? It is very bulky. There is an active thread over at the Deskthority forum about dreaming up a new, more modern look for the SSK.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 23:35:06 »
If you remake an IBM space saver with Cherry MX blue switches, you don't really have anything special.  And really, a Filco with blues would still be a better keyboard.

I don't think so. Filcos are not high-end keyboards. I know because I bought one. 150€ and, within weeks, my keys shine, WTF?! In my opinion, Unicomp and Cherry are the only reliable manufacturers of durable decent mechanical keyboards. Interestingly, their keyboards are also cheaper. They may not be lookers, but they are closer to what I was looking for. However, no tenkeyless keyboards from them, otherwise I would have bought one already and had been done with it.

The problem with other manufacturers is that their keyboards are all alike. Such manufacturers rely on the mechanical nature of their keyboards for sales, while skimping over the rest.

I would have to disagree somewhat here. First of all, as an advocate of good keycaps, I will say that the filco ones are likely not as good as they could be. Still, I take issue with your claim that cherry and unicomp are the only reliable keyboard manufacturers. What about ducky? the KB build quality should be roughly the same as filco, and you can get them with long lasting PBT keycaps.
A strike against cherry: many of their POS keybaords are awful, with crazy amount of flex in the PCB. The cases will crack if you so much as look at them sharply, and while the engraved and infilled keycaps might look nice, they wont after a few months. Cherry no longer makes doubleshots or dyesubs, if you recall.

Additionally, I would like to say there are numerous other manufacturers of reliable keyboards. I have two TG3 boards that show exemplary construction throughout, as well as being some of the only keyboards that have proper grounding of the metal plates. Both have either dyesub PBT keycap surface, or doubleshot ABS.

Going further afield, there are lots of manufacturers that build good keyboards for industrial use. GMK made most of the WEY terminal boards, and thought I don't have one of them, they are indeed nice. Gilbarco used keytronic reed switches before switching to cortronics as their OEM for hall effect. I'm not sure what they use now though.

Devlin has bought alphameric, and is likely one of the only suppliers capable of producing a rubberdome keybaord with NKRO (other than Topre of course). The keycaps are keytronic'stem compatible dyesub PBT in all cases I have seen. It's thelevel of durability I would expect from a keyboard used my the US millitary, and is far superior in construction and reliability claims than any of cherry's or unicomps claims.

Also, what about IBM? Their quality has always been good. They still make keyboards, and they have some of the nicer plate mounted rubberdomes in the POS industry. They even still use SDL - PS/2 cables.

Please also note that cherry makes and has made a number of keyboards, and some are quite small. The G80-1950 I have is about the size of a TKL board I would say. They have crammed a lot of brown switches on it as well.

Finally, I don't think your claim that filcos are not high end keybaords because you ahve a single issue with it is fair. Now even though a filco is not perfect, they are still solidly in the realm of "high end". I would argue that,  despite pricing concerns, most mechanical keyboards count as "high end". Now is Filco top tier? no, and they have never been.

Offline Photekq

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 07 December 2013, 23:40:45 »
within weeks, my keys shine, WTF?!
Do you have sandpaper fingertips? I had a filco, used it for months (10+ hours a day) no shine whatsoever. If your only problem is the shine on the keycaps then, as dorkvader has said, buy some better (PBT) keycaps. For ISO look towards Ducky dyesub PBT or original Cherry PBT dyesubs (for sale at a very good price here - unfortunately not italian/spanish layout, you'd have to deal with de/yu legends)
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 December 2013, 23:43:01 by Photekq »
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Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 08 December 2013, 06:33:09 »
Still, I take issue with your claim that cherry and unicomp are the only reliable keyboard manufacturers. What about ducky? the KB build quality should be roughly the same as filco, and you can get them with long lasting PBT keycaps.
A strike against cherry: many of their POS keybaords are awful, with crazy amount of flex in the PCB. The cases will crack if you so much as look at them sharply, and while the engraved and infilled keycaps might look nice, they wont after a few months. Cherry no longer makes doubleshots or dyesubs, if you recall.

I stand corrected: I should have said "dependable" rather than "reliable". AFAIK, only Unicomp and Cherry have long-standing models that are unlikely to be discontinued in the near future. OTOH, it seems to me that other companies manufacture their models in batches, thus you can't rely on a model being available in the future, or it being available with the same characteristics.

You see, Dorkvader, I'm fussy about my keyboards but I'm not a keyboard geek. I'm just looking for a standard durable solid keyboard which I could recommend to other people in the future. A keyboard for which I could find replacement parts without having to scour the Internet, organize group-buys, etc. Am I asking for too much? Apparently yes.

When I named Cherry, I was really thinking about the G80-3000 and nothing else. The G80-3000 and the keyboards by Unicomp -- while not high-end -- seem to be the only mechanical keyboards that are here to stay, while other models come and go. Could you recommend other long-standing models?

I'm particular because I value modularity and durability over novel designs. My idea is to cater to users like me, who are neglected by most manufacturers.

By the way, Why would you want to clone the IBM SSK? It is very bulky. There is an active thread over at the Deskthority forum about dreaming up a new, more modern look for the SSK.

That's interesting, thanks.

Do you have sandpaper fingertips? I had a filco, used it for months (10+ hours a day) no shine whatsoever.

It is more likely that I have heavy fingers, since I experienced the same issue with my Thinkpad. That could be the reason for me not liking Cherry browns, as well.

If your only problem is the shine on the keycaps then, as dorkvader has said, buy some better (PBT) keycaps. For ISO look towards Ducky dyesub PBT (...)

Thanks for your recommendation. Indeed, I had already sent an inquiry to Ducky.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 December 2013, 08:28:30 by spremino »
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline spremino

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Re: A clone of the IBM Space Saving: copyright infringement?
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 08 December 2013, 07:40:03 »
Now that I think about it, the most flexible idea would be to devise a BS switch that is compatible with Cherry's pins and stem.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!