brainstorming about 60% layouts

[tbc]

By far the most important balancing act of a 60% keyboard is whether to include a bottom-right arrow cluster or to include a proper spacebar.

having a proper poker layout makes custom keycaps a non-concern, but some folks do have to make an effort to live with odd cursor block placement.

I think there is a better way:

turn the bottom-right 4 1.25x mods into 5 1x keycaps instead.

why?

that gives me a layout that looks like this: (ignore sizing please, I think it's still pretty obvious what I'm getting at.)

_______[shift________ ______]
space][alt][win][menu][ctrl][func]

what happens when I press the func with my pinky?


_______[___________up______]
space][alt][lft][dwn][rght][fn key]

isn't that nice?  (I use my 3 middle fingers for cursors...i'm assuming everybody else is the same)

I know this doesn't actually give you a cursor block AND solve the keycap issue (you're good if you use blanks because space is completely standard) and requires a completely non-standard pcb, but I think it makes better use of real estate on the board.


but what do you guys think?  did I completely do my math wrong? has someone already thought this up? 

EDIT:

why is my text diagram broken?

EDIT2:

i found out why -_-  fixed now at the expense of misspelled words lol.

[spiceBar]

By far the most important balancing act of a 60% keyboard is whether to include a bottom-right arrow cluster or to include a proper spacebar.

having a proper poker layout makes custom keycaps a non-concern, but some folks do have to make an effort to live with odd cursor block placement.

I think there is a better way:

turn the bottom-right 4 1.25x mods into 5 1x keycaps instead.

why?

that gives me a layout that looks like this: (ignore sizing please, I think it's still pretty obvious what I'm getting at.)

_______[shift________ ______]
space][alt][win][menu][ctrl][func]

what happens when I press the func with my pinky?


_______[___________up______]
space][alt][lft][dwn][rght][fn key]

isn't that nice?  (I use my 3 middle fingers for cursors...i'm assuming everybody else is the same)

I know this doesn't actually give you a cursor block AND solve the keycap issue (you're good if you use blanks because space is completely standard) and requires a completely non-standard pcb, but I think it makes better use of real estate on the board.


but what do you guys think?  did I completely do my math wrong? has someone already thought this up? 

EDIT:

why is my text diagram broken?

EDIT2:

i found out why -_-  fixed now at the expense of misspelled words lol.

You don't need to change the standard layout:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

[phatdood9]

Something that I have been thinking about, which you could consider as an option, is to have a fn lock key

Single tap fn = lock, hold fn = same as normal.

Not sure if you can do this w/o custom hardware though.

[MKULTRA]

Do Poker layout or WKL w/ 1.75 shift.  Put Fn right next to the shift and use WASD as arrow keys.

I guess that takes two hands though...

[Puddsy]

MiniLA layout is all I ever need

[tbc]

Do Poker layout or WKL w/ 1.75 shift.  Put Fn right next to the shift and use WASD as arrow keys.

I guess that takes two hands though...

that's the fundamental issue with having only 4 modifiers on the bottom-right.  you MUST use your index finger to hit the right-alt key (this would be turned into the fn button)(this is bad because your most 'agile' finger is stuck on 'landmine' duty or you must do some contortionist thing like in your suggestion.

I look at the bottom right corner of every board i have and i NEVER use it for anything that couldn't be done better in some other way.

[spiceBar]

Do Poker layout or WKL w/ 1.75 shift.  Put Fn right next to the shift and use WASD as arrow keys.

I guess that takes two hands though...

that's the fundamental issue with having only 4 modifiers on the bottom-right.  you MUST use your index finger to hit the right-alt key (this would be turned into the fn button)(this is bad because your most 'agile' finger is stuck on 'landmine' duty or you must do some contortionist thing like in your suggestion.

I look at the bottom right corner of every board i have and i NEVER use it for anything that couldn't be done better in some other way.

Also please remember that the right Alt key is not equivalent to the left one. In some (many) languages, the right Alt is called AltGr and is used to type characters that are outside the classical alphabet (A-Z). For example, the Euro symbol (€) used by millions of people is done with AltGr-E.

Nuking the right Alt would make the keyboard unsuitable for many people.

No, really, you should consider the SpaceFN layout.

[tbc]

?

that's what i'm saying.  implementing bottom-right cursors WITHOUT adding an extra key to the bottom row requires that you lose the right-alt key.  that is bad; therefore I am saying that we should be using 5 mods instead of 4.

EDIT:

spaceFN is meant to be a complete 60% solution.  it works if you have ONLY 60% keyboards or your primary objective is to keep your hands on homerow.

but what happens when you use a spaceFN at home + a normal TKL board that you have to use at work and can't remap*?  you're screwed unless you're completely comfortable having two sets of muscle memory.

with this 5-mod layout, at least you're still reaching for the bottom-right area of the board and when you screw up trying to move your cursor, at most, you press a menu key (your errors never produce a text error).  as well, your hand is now closer to the arrow block instead of still being on homerow.


*i KNOW this is a problem members have; one of the must-buy cases for the poker 2

[Linkbane]

By far the most important balancing act of a 60% keyboard is whether to include a bottom-right arrow cluster or to include a proper spacebar.

having a proper poker layout makes custom keycaps a non-concern, but some folks do have to make an effort to live with odd cursor block placement.

I think there is a better way:

turn the bottom-right 4 1.25x mods into 5 1x keycaps instead.

why?

that gives me a layout that looks like this: (ignore sizing please, I think it's still pretty obvious what I'm getting at.)

_______[shift________ ______]
space][alt][win][menu][ctrl][func]

what happens when I press the func with my pinky?


_______[___________up______]
space][alt][lft][dwn][rght][fn key]

isn't that nice?  (I use my 3 middle fingers for cursors...i'm assuming everybody else is the same)

I know this doesn't actually give you a cursor block AND solve the keycap issue (you're good if you use blanks because space is completely standard) and requires a completely non-standard pcb, but I think it makes better use of real estate on the board.


but what do you guys think?  did I completely do my math wrong? has someone already thought this up? 

EDIT:

why is my text diagram broken?

EDIT2:

i found out why -_-  fixed now at the expense of misspelled words lol.

Take a look at this. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50552.msg1104657#msg1104657

[spiceBar]

?

that's what i'm saying.  implementing bottom-right cursors WITHOUT adding an extra key to the bottom row requires that you lose the right-alt key.  that is bad; therefore I am saying that we should be using 5 mods instead of 4.

EDIT:

spaceFN is meant to be a complete 60% solution.  it works if you have ONLY 60% keyboards or your primary objective is to keep your hands on homerow.

but what happens when you use a spaceFN at home + a normal TKL board that you have to use at work and can't remap*?  you're screwed unless you're completely comfortable having two sets of muscle memory.

with this 5-mod layout, at least you're still reaching for the bottom-right area of the board and when you screw up trying to move your cursor, at most, you press a menu key (your errors never produce a text error).  as well, your hand is now closer to the arrow block instead of still being on homerow.


*i KNOW this is a problem members have; one of the must-buy cases for the poker 2

You are not screwed at all.

I switch all the time between a Mac with a Poker configured as SpaceFN and a Linux box with a Realforce TKL that has the standard layout.

One of the properties of SpaceFN is that it does not interfere with your existing muscle memory.

I have been able to confirm this by using SpaceFN for 3 weeks in a row without touching the Linux box. Then one day I had to do a lot of work on Linux. I did not have to make any effort to "re-adapt" to the TKL. I was instantly productive.

Back on the Mac, no effort needed either.

The primary objective of SpaceFN was not to keep the hands on the home row. The primary objective was to find a layout that could be used on 60% keyboards and did not require to add, remove, or change in any way the size of any key. For this reason, it is possible to use it on ANY existing keyboard. You can use it on a Poker, on a Poker II, on an HHKB, on any TKL if you wish, and even on a full size keyboard. You can actually use it on an old Unix terminal keyboard, on a TRS-80 keyboard, an Apple II keyboard, a Mac classic keyboard... All you need is a space bar and the letters U I O J K L H and N basically.

It does not require any special layout of the modifiers (your suggested layout requires a special keyboard with 5 modifiers at the bottom right).

It turns out that one of the main advantages of SpaceFN is a lot of reduction in hand travel because you can stay most of the time on the home row. With your suggested layout, the right hand leaves the home row to reach the navigation keys.

With your suggested layout, you cannot do Home, End, PgUp, PgDn with just one hand either.

[tbc]

^ you can't use yourself as a validator for your own product.  if you didn't like your own product, you wouldn't have released it publicly in the first place.  it's wrong to assume everyone is like you; if they were, there would never be any topre vs mx threads and everyone would have the same keyboard.

I HAVE used spaceFN already.  remember I have a minila customized with AHK.  it doesn't work for me and no amount of insistence from you will change that fact.

sure, your technique works NOW, but it doesn't solve the issue I'm targetting in the first place; you keep thinking we're talking about the same issue.

[mooswa]

I use my 3 middle fingers for cursors...i'm assuming everybody else is the same

I only have 2 middle fingers.

[tbc]

^ that's your handicap.  not mine

[TacticalCoder]

what happens when I press the func with my pinky?


_______[___________up______]
space][alt][lft][dwn][rght][fn key]

isn't that nice?

I would say that it's not very nice to use your pinky for a modifier you'll need to hit often: pinkies are weak and typists are known to develop pinkies injuries. I try to favor my "strong" fingers as much as possible.

All I need on the space bar row is: (to me the fewer keys the better and the narrower the spacebar the better)

_____[mod1][space bar][mod2]________

I use mod2 as a regular Alt and mod1 as another modifier. I press these keys with my thumbs.

[mod1] + {ijkl} moves the cursor
[mod1] + u is home
[mod1] + m is end
[mod1] + e is escape

zero pinkies involved for these and hardly any fingers/hands movement     

The last 3 I recently "stole" from the SpaceFn layout but using my left thumb on the modifier at the left of the spacebar and then {ijkl} to move the cursor is something I've been doing for years and years.

The big difference between mine and the SpaceFn is that SpaceFn is using the spacebar as a modifier using a clever trick while I'm happily using one of the two alts instead. Having ctrl, shift, alt and one additional modifier is, IMHO, plenty of shortcuts for your window managers, arrow keys, accentuated/diacritics characters, etc.

I've configured my system to actually send arrow keys codes etc. when pressing [mod1+key] so that these shortcuts work in any application (instead of configuring them for each application -- which doesn't work that well anyway seen that many app do not allow that level of customization).

Note that whether you call your second 'AltGr' or configure it to be 'Super' or 'Hyper' and if you invert your two alts or not doesn't have much importance at all: you can configure your system so that your modifiers+keys produce anything you want. So it's not because, say, I would decide to use my right alt as alt and my alt as the Hyper modifier that I'd somehow lose the ability to enter, say, 'é': I'd just reconfigure my Hyper+whatever-key to produce 'é' etc.

The important thing, IMHO, is to use as few modifiers as possible: the SpaceFn layout does it with two modifiers on the space bar row and so does mine. As stated it works everywhere: laptop, old Model M, HHKB, you-name-it.

That subject seems to be coming more and more often. I take it that in the end a lot of us are going to agree that for touch-typists either {ijkl} or {esdf} and a modifier that you can trigger with your opposite thumb is very effective. Some ergo boards seem to have at least the same opinion regarding thumbs and modifiers: thumbs are strong fingers and they can do more than hitting the space bar.

I even do not despair and think that at one point more 60% keyboard manufacturers may decide to create smaller spacebar and "easier to reach with the thumbs" modifiers... Seems like it already started with, for example, the Filco minila 

[tbc]

if you're happy having a short space, then the minila has already won. you just give up the option to replace your caps.

EDIT:

pinkie usage is not a concerns, it's in the same spot it would be when  you're on homerow.  it's not a diagonal stretch like hitting right shift or left Ctrl.

[tbc]

here's something else to think about. shift the space bar over to the right by 1.25.  now you have a normal space and an easier to hit left thumb mod.  there are still 3 mods on the right side ato use as an arrow block if you're cool with 1.25x cursor keys (I'm personally not,  but someone with big fingers would probably love it).

[spiceBar]

^ you can't use yourself as a validator for your own product.  if you didn't like your own product, you wouldn't have released it publicly in the first place.  it's wrong to assume everyone is like you; if they were, there would never be any topre vs mx threads and everyone would have the same keyboard.

I HAVE used spaceFN already.  remember I have a minila customized with AHK.  it doesn't work for me and no amount of insistence from you will change that fact.

sure, your technique works NOW, but it doesn't solve the issue I'm targetting in the first place; you keep thinking we're talking about the same issue.

So what is that issue you are targeting in the first place that SpaceFN does not address?

I have made a picture of your proposal so people can visualize it:



Below is SpaceFN:


SpaceFN, standard layout:



SpaceFN, Fn layout (the Fn key is the space bar):

(Keys with no legend do what they do when space is not pressed.)

[tbc]

switching between layouts.

there are situations where you're going to want full keyset swappability and cursor keys, but won't be able to use a remapper.  aka work.  you're stuck with a TKL here; a 75% doesn't work because of the right shift.

now you can use spaceFN at home though.  regardless of the actual formfactor of your keyboard, you'll keep your fingers on homerow and still be able to hit all important keys.

now, what happens at work?  you want to move the cursor, but then you see 'jjj' spammed on your screen.  what happened?  you just tried to use spaceFN on a board that can't be remapped cause of work policies. 

[spiceBar]

switching between layouts.

there are situations where you're going to want full keyset swappability and cursor keys, but won't be able to use a remapper.  aka work.  you're stuck with a TKL here; a 75% doesn't work because of the right shift.

now you can use spaceFN at home though.  regardless of the actual formfactor of your keyboard, you'll keep your fingers on homerow and still be able to hit all important keys.

now, what happens at work?  you want to move the cursor, but then you see 'jjj' spammed on your screen.  what happened?  you just tried to use spaceFN on a board that can't be remapped cause of work policies.

I don't understand your point here.

How does it make your proposal more valuable?

[tbc]

are you saying my proposal doesn't fix my problem or are you saying that my issue isn't actually a problem?

4 keys are used for pressing cursors in my proposal:  winkey, menu, ctrl, shift.

you can spam any of those keys all you want; you'll never accidentally insert an error into your document.  As well, correcting any mispressed keys is only a single keypress MAX (press winkey to clsoe the start menu, press menu to get rid of the menu).

I suspect the reason you prefer your solution is that keeping your hands on homerow is priority #1.  My solution is optimized to prevent errors that happen because of different keyboard layouts (when there is no AHK available).  does everything make more sense now?

EDIT:

let's be clear; I'm not here to push an 'agenda' or anything.  like the topic says, this is for brainstorming about (plural) layouts.  As you know, matias has been doing alot of work with 60% layouts.  If any manufacturers large or small decide to be adventurous; it'd be nice if we had spent some time talking over new layouts before they decide to go into production or hit some other hard business commitment.

isn't it kinda pathetic that the entire keyboard market can't match up to the layout efficiency of apple's chiclet boards?

[gropingmantis]

I'm just going to weigh in here and say that it is NEVER worthwhile modifying the two standard layouts (1.25 Modifiers, 1.5 Modifiers....or Moogle and Tsangan if you are that way inclined) to include arrow keys. That will screw with peoples muscle memory more than having a function layer arrow cluster on something like WASD or ESDF.

Check out these layouts:



Your 5x1 right hand modifiers has been tried and IMO doesnt work...at all. If you have issues with muscle memory and start typing wasd or esdf all over your office documents then welcome to the club. I'm a vim user...all day every day at work and most evenings at home. As a result when someone tries to get me to type in word or openoffice they get h,j,k,l,x,w,dd,yy,p,:w all over their work. Just the way things are.

[spiceBar]

are you saying my proposal doesn't fix my problem or are you saying that my issue isn't actually a problem?

Both.

It doesn't fix your problem and your issue is not a problem.


1. Your issue is not a problem:

In the first minute when you switch from a keyboard to another (with a different layout), you may indeed press a wrong key and insert a few characters into the document you are editing.

It happened to me when switching from a SpaceFN keyboard to a standard TKL. I ended up with a few " jjjj i" in my text.

I pressed Ctrl-Z (undo), re-focused on the fact that I was on a different keyboard, and that was all.

Any software that is not desperately obsolete allows to undo the last characters typed. Even a command line allows it (with backspace!).

The fact that your proposal allows to mistype the arrows without inserting spurious text is a very minor advantage of it.

And it is not even an advantage at all because...


2. You don't even fix the problem:

Navigating thru a document does not involve only the arrow keys.

The first thing you may have to do in a document is to press PgUp or PgDn. Or press Home or End.

You will have to put these functions on keys that generate characters. And you will get spurious characters in your document when you switch to a standard keyboard and forget about it.

Or you will have to use the modifiers on the other side of the keyboard, forcing the use of two hands for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.

Or you will have to add an Fn key at the left of the keyboard.

4 keys are used for pressing cursors in my proposal:  winkey, menu, ctrl, shift.

you can spam any of those keys all you want; you'll never accidentally insert an error into your document.  As well, correcting any mispressed keys is only a single keypress MAX (press winkey to clsoe the start menu, press menu to get rid of the menu).

I suspect the reason you prefer your solution is that keeping your hands on homerow is priority #1.  My solution is optimized to prevent errors that happen because of different keyboard layouts (when there is no AHK available).  does everything make more sense now?

I don't know why you insist on this. SpaceFN has NOT been designed to keep the hands on the home row. It has been designed to use the space bar as a big Fn key, allowing the use of a totally standard layout (the typewriter cluster of a standard PC keyboard) for a 60% board that does all a standard full keyboard can do.

It just happens that it allows to keep the hands in the home position while navigating. If you put your right thumb on the space bar, you will notice that your fingers rest naturally and without effort where the navigation keys have been put in SpaceFN. The J key has also the advantage of having this little tactile bump that makes it easy to find without looking at the keyboard.

But the main thing is: manufacturers insist on adding useless Fn keys, when we already know that space can be used for that. I have not invented this. Matias has worked on the concept a long time ago, and space is commonly used as an additional Shift by many people (I think they call this SanS). Instead, we see Fn keys popping out in ridiculous places, and even eating the space bar, maybe trying to replace it because it is so conveniently placed under the thumb.

There is an obvious simplification waiting to happen here: if you are going to have an Fn layer, just use space as the Fn key. We know how to do this. It works very well.

EDIT:

let's be clear; I'm not here to push an 'agenda' or anything.  like the topic says, this is for brainstorming about (plural) layouts.  As you know, matias has been doing alot of work with 60% layouts.  If any manufacturers large or small decide to be adventurous; it'd be nice if we had spent some time talking over new layouts before they decide to go into production or hit some other hard business commitment.

isn't it kinda pathetic that the entire keyboard market can't match up to the layout efficiency of apple's chiclet boards?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the Apple's small aluminum keyboard very efficient. I have one, I have used it for a while, but switching to a mechanical TKL later has been an incredible relief.

I don't know if Matias has done a lot of work with 60% layouts. He doesn't sell any at this time as far as I know. He said he had a design with dedicated arrow keys but I have seen nothing yet. After trying to design such a layout myself, I'm skeptical about it. You get either an overcrowded keyboard with ridiculous short Shifts (Minila, Pure Pro, ...) or an unjustifiable Fn layout with a poorly placed Fn key. Or both.

I agree that we need to work on a solution for 60% keyboards, because the manufacturers are unlikely to produce a good one. It should be clear now.

But when you suggest an idea, you expose yourself to a lot of criticism, justified or not.

Some time ago, before SpaceFN, I have suggested a layout for a 60% board with dedicated arrow keys, using exactly the same number and layout of keys as the typewriter cluster. In order to achieve this, I had to move one character. It has not been well received:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47888.msg1023617#msg1023617
(I have just noticed that you had participated in this thread, I did not remember)

It was not an idea that I had a few minutes before posting. I had been thinking about it for days and even tried it myself with a software simulation.

So before you post an idea and defend it like you do, you'd better spend a lot of time validating it in private. Or just accept that you are brainstorming and that an idea that looked great on the surface does not stand the test of reality.

[randomist]

I wish someone would just make a poker 2 like layout (no arrow key cluster, all the keys the size they should be etc.) except with a filco minila type short space bar and Fn keys. To make it as universal as possible you could (as the filco does) make one or both Fn keys space if needed and have a choice of the menu key, a windows key, an alt, control key if you don't use them on a standard board anyway. I can't remember the last time I used the menu key and I only use right control for one handed ctrl+alt+del, which I don't use if both hands are on the keyboard already. With one or two Fn keys set to space with that layout you could even set the central space bar to Fn.

People are different so why not make the way the function layer is accessed as flexible as possible? I also think that the solution should be hardware or at least on-board software based. This is so that you can just plug in to any machine you need to and have the board just work. I would think that pretty important on such a portable board.

SpaceFn is a nice idea but it just wouldn't work for me, its not a cure-all but I'm sure it will work for many.

[spiceBar]

I wish someone would just make a poker 2 like layout (no arrow key cluster, all the keys the size they should be etc.) except with a filco minila type short space bar and Fn keys. To make it as universal as possible you could (as the filco does) make one or both Fn keys space if needed and have a choice of the menu key, a windows key, an alt, control key if you don't use them on a standard board anyway. I can't remember the last time I used the menu key and I only use right control for one handed ctrl+alt+del, which I don't use if both hands are on the keyboard already. With one or two Fn keys set to space with that layout you could even set the central space bar to Fn.

People are different so why not make the way the function layer is accessed as flexible as possible? I also think that the solution should be hardware or at least on-board software based. This is so that you can just plug in to any machine you need to and have the board just work. I would think that pretty important on such a portable board.

SpaceFn is a nice idea but it just wouldn't work for me, its not a cure-all but I'm sure it will work for many.

Yes, the keyboard itself should present itself as a standard keyboard to the OS and take care of the OS itself.

At this time, SpaceFN can be tried as a software simulation for Windows and Mac, and it already exists in hardware. I'm typing this on a SpaceFN HHKB at this time. The GH60 also supports SpaceFN, and there are adapters that turn ANY keyboard into a programmable keyboard (and the adapter can be programmed to support SpaceFN).

There is something I don't understand. You suggest to have Fn keys at the right and left of the space bar. What problem do you perceive in using the space bar as the Fn key? The way I see it, you are asking for two useless keys. Why do you want the Fn keys?

[tbc]

Lets talk about our usecases.  in my usecase doing papers 'proofing' (not a professional - but I help friends of friends, etc) and programming.  In both instances, I repeatedly go up and down a document, using both a logitech scrollwheel and cursors for line-editing.  pressing undo is a HORRIBLE idea when I'm spot editing because it's very easy to undo too far (i still use it though - for clarity); yes, you can obviously see the errors, but I have deadlines and I do get tired.  that is why adding in bad content and removing good content (my edits) when my job is to REMOVE bad content is never acceptable. 


on the topic of contribution and feedback, I'm interested in HARDWARE solutions to problem areas people have with common layouts.  getting an immediate solution is not important to me in the slightest so that's why I'm willing to just talk and just talk about hardware..  talking about a software solution doesn't solve any of my personal gripes (and I can't really talk about gripes I don't have now can I?).

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the Apple's small aluminum keyboard very efficient. I have one, I have used it for a while, but switching to a mechanical TKL later has been an incredible relief.

the key feel is pathetic (although quite nice compared to other laptop designs).

I'm referring to how it has a useful base cluster with a cursor block AND an F-row.  it's ridiculous that I can't have a poker with an added F-row; I MUST go to a 75% board (only talking about topre/MX - don't know about alps boards).  75% boards are extremely neglected compared to the 60% and TKL boards.

...

now you're stuck with an unreplaceable spacebar. 

although, honestly, normal spacebars are ridiculously oversized.  it's much more ergonomic to make it minila-esque sized so that the left-alt is closer to center so you won't need to twist your thumb to reach it.

[spiceBar]

Lets talk about our usecases.  in my usecase doing papers 'proofing' (not a professional - but I help friends of friends, etc) and programming.  In both instances, I repeatedly go up and down a document, using both a logitech scrollwheel and cursors for line-editing.  pressing undo is a HORRIBLE idea when I'm spot editing because it's very easy to undo too far (i still use it though - for clarity); yes, you can obviously see the errors, but I have deadlines and I do get tired.  that is why adding in bad content and removing good content (my edits) when my job is to REMOVE bad content is never acceptable. 

You need a read-only keyboard.

You did not address my remark about Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.

on the topic of contribution and feedback, I'm interested in HARDWARE solutions to problem areas people have with common layouts.  getting an immediate solution is not important to me in the slightest so that's why I'm willing to just talk and just talk about hardware..  talking about a software solution doesn't solve any of my personal gripes (and I can't really talk about gripes I don't have now can I?).

Where did I say that SpaceFN is a software solution only?

I'm typing this post on an HHKB Pro 2 with the SpaceFN layout built-in. I mean I can plug the HHKB in any computer and it is still SpaceFN. No software to install.

On my Linux boxes, I have a 60% Cherry MX keyboard with the SpaceFN layout built-in (shared with a KVM).

I have an adapter that turns ANY keyboard into a SpaceFN keyboard. Just plug it between the keyboard and the computer and there you go...

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the Apple's small aluminum keyboard very efficient. I have one, I have used it for a while, but switching to a mechanical TKL later has been an incredible relief.

the key feel is pathetic (although quite nice compared to other laptop designs).

I'm referring to how it has a useful base cluster with a cursor block AND an F-row.  it's ridiculous that I can't have a poker with an added F-row; I MUST go to a 75% board (only talking about topre/MX - don't know about alps boards).  75% boards are extremely neglected compared to the 60% and TKL boards.

...

now you're stuck with an unreplaceable spacebar. 

although, honestly, normal spacebars are ridiculously oversized.  it's much more ergonomic to make it minila-esque sized so that the left-alt is closer to center so you won't need to twist your thumb to reach it.

[randomist]

I wish someone would just make a poker 2 like layout (no arrow key cluster, all the keys the size they should be etc.) except with a filco minila type short space bar and Fn keys. To make it as universal as possible you could (as the filco does) make one or both Fn keys space if needed and have a choice of the menu key, a windows key, an alt, control key if you don't use them on a standard board anyway. I can't remember the last time I used the menu key and I only use right control for one handed ctrl+alt+del, which I don't use if both hands are on the keyboard already. With one or two Fn keys set to space with that layout you could even set the central space bar to Fn.

People are different so why not make the way the function layer is accessed as flexible as possible? I also think that the solution should be hardware or at least on-board software based. This is so that you can just plug in to any machine you need to and have the board just work. I would think that pretty important on such a portable board.

SpaceFn is a nice idea but it just wouldn't work for me, its not a cure-all but I'm sure it will work for many.

Yes, the keyboard itself should present itself as a standard keyboard to the OS and take care of the OS itself.

At this time, SpaceFN can be tried as a software simulation for Windows and Mac, and it already exists in hardware. I'm typing this on a SpaceFN HHKB at this time. The GH60 also supports SpaceFN, and there are adapters that turn ANY keyboard into a programmable keyboard (and the adapter can be programmed to support SpaceFN).

There is something I don't understand. You suggest to have Fn keys at the right and left of the space bar. What problem do you perceive in using the space bar as the Fn key? The way I see it, you are asking for two useless keys. Why do you want the Fn keys?

Because all the other keys already have uses and I need the space bar to remain a space bar when i hold it, and not modify keys when I do. My thumbs naturally fall in the middle of the bar so the sides are wasted anyway. Allowing the fn keys to swap with space presents a compromise for people for whom this isn't the case. I want the keys to be just for accessing the function layer because doubling up duty with another key (especially space) is just going to cause problems for me.

[spiceBar]

I wish someone would just make a poker 2 like layout (no arrow key cluster, all the keys the size they should be etc.) except with a filco minila type short space bar and Fn keys. To make it as universal as possible you could (as the filco does) make one or both Fn keys space if needed and have a choice of the menu key, a windows key, an alt, control key if you don't use them on a standard board anyway. I can't remember the last time I used the menu key and I only use right control for one handed ctrl+alt+del, which I don't use if both hands are on the keyboard already. With one or two Fn keys set to space with that layout you could even set the central space bar to Fn.

People are different so why not make the way the function layer is accessed as flexible as possible? I also think that the solution should be hardware or at least on-board software based. This is so that you can just plug in to any machine you need to and have the board just work. I would think that pretty important on such a portable board.

SpaceFn is a nice idea but it just wouldn't work for me, its not a cure-all but I'm sure it will work for many.

Yes, the keyboard itself should present itself as a standard keyboard to the OS and take care of the OS itself.

At this time, SpaceFN can be tried as a software simulation for Windows and Mac, and it already exists in hardware. I'm typing this on a SpaceFN HHKB at this time. The GH60 also supports SpaceFN, and there are adapters that turn ANY keyboard into a programmable keyboard (and the adapter can be programmed to support SpaceFN).

There is something I don't understand. You suggest to have Fn keys at the right and left of the space bar. What problem do you perceive in using the space bar as the Fn key? The way I see it, you are asking for two useless keys. Why do you want the Fn keys?

Because all the other keys already have uses and I need the space bar to remain a space bar when i hold it, and not modify keys when I do. My thumbs naturally fall in the middle of the bar so the sides are wasted anyway. Allowing the fn keys to swap with space presents a compromise for people for whom this isn't the case. I want the keys to be just for accessing the function layer because doubling up duty with another key (especially space) is just going to cause problems for me.

I think you are afraid that space as an Fn key is going to interfere with the normal use of the keyboard, when typing for example.

This is probably the biggest hurdle for SpaceFN, but not because space as Fn causes problems. It doesn't cause any. You'd be surprised that you can still type absolutely normally and you won't even notice it's a SpaceFN keyboard. The firmware in the keyboard controller handles this perfectly, and you don't even have to think about it. The software simulations also make it totally transparent.

So it's a psychological hurdle. People will discard the idea just because they think it MUST cause problems, and they will not even try it. We are going to add keys that are absolutely not needed.

[randomist]

No, I need to HOLD space and press other keys without changing any of them. Keyboards are used for more than text entry in more complex software than vim or word. I think the same is also true for gamers, who would want to jump/handbrake (e-brake in the US?) while also accessing a lot of other keys simultaneously.

[spiceBar]

No, I need to HOLD space and press other keys without changing any of them. Keyboards are used for more than text entry in more complex software than vim or word. I think the same is also true for gamers, who would want to jump/handbrake (e-brake in the US?) while also accessing a lot of other keys simultaneously.

Either you don't understand what I mean or I don't understand what you mean.

[randomist]

I need space bar to NOT modify ANY key on the board when I HOLD the space bar down and continue using other keys because it gives me access to software features in programs I need to use. If the space bar is the Fn key that isn't possible. I'm not typing, I'm using the keyboard as a controller. For me the Fn key NEEDS to be a separate key.

I understand perfectly that SpaceFn firmware accounts for rollover when typing, that's not the issue at all.

[spiceBar]

I need space bar to NOT modify ANY key on the board when I HOLD the space bar down and continue using other keys because it gives me access to software features in programs I need to use. If the space bar is the Fn key that isn't possible. I'm not typing, I'm using the keyboard as a controller. For me the Fn key NEEDS to be a separate key.

I understand perfectly that SpaceFn firmware accounts for rollover when typing, that's not the issue at all.

OK, you mean that in some apps pressing and holding the space key does something special, and that SpaceFN would interfere with this (and you are correct).

Sorry for not understanding earlier.

Which applications do that? I assume they are games?

Would it work if you could switch to a mode where the Fn key would be the CapsLock key for example? Then when you are done playing you could switch back to using the space key as Fn.

I'm not trying to force the idea on you. Actually I had not thought about this usage pattern but I had already thought about allowing to switch to a different mode just in case. So I'm wondering if this could be a solution.

[randomist]

some of my in-house engineering software does it, as well as games and a few pieces of software i haven't used in a while which may have changed. The big one for most will be games where the capslock being switched would often be beneficial, but switching between Fn keys is a little ponderous as a workaround.

[spiceBar]

some of my in-house engineering software does it, as well as games and a few pieces of software i haven't used in a while which may have changed. The big one for most will be games where the capslock being switched would often be beneficial, but switching between Fn keys is a little ponderous as a workaround.

Yes indeed. So it's something I should tell to potential users of SpaceFN.

Thank you for your patience! I have been a little slow on this one.

[Nixietube]

The current poker 2 layout has the wasd keys function as the arrowcluster. so your right hand presses fn and you use wasd. why wouldnt they move the arrowkeys to esdf so i keep my fingers on the homerow and only my middle finger slides one up for the up button. i know that wasd is the universal gaming position (i dont want to go into detail why that is a crappy placement for gaming) but still it would have been nicer to keep my fingers on the homerow instead of sliding one to the left.

[spiceBar]

The current poker 2 layout has the wasd keys function as the arrowcluster. so your right hand presses fn and you use wasd. why wouldnt they move the arrowkeys to esdf so i keep my fingers on the homerow and only my middle finger slides one up for the up button. i know that wasd is the universal gaming position (i dont want to go into detail why that is a crappy placement for gaming) but still it would have been nicer to keep my fingers on the homerow instead of sliding one to the left.

As a side note, because of the way standard keyboards are staggered, using the left hand for an inverted T arrow cluster is rather awkward.

Put your right hand on the keyboard so JKL is under your index, middle and ring fingers. Now extend your middle finger: it reaches very naturally the I key.

Then try with the left hand on SDF. Extend your middle finger: where does it go naturally?

[spiceBar]

some of my in-house engineering software does it, as well as games and a few pieces of software i haven't used in a while which may have changed. The big one for most will be games where the capslock being switched would often be beneficial, but switching between Fn keys is a little ponderous as a workaround.

I forgot to add this: it's maybe not ideal and certainly not for gaming, but SpaceFN allows you to actually let your PC know that your are pressing and holding space. In the SpaceFN layout, you will notice that the B key is labelled "Blank". The initial purpose of this key is to offer an autorepeating space: press and hold space to access the SpaceFN layer, and then press and hold B to generate a lot of spaces. So the B key acts as a replacement space in the SpaceFN layer. To tell the PC you are pressing and holding space, you press and hold both space and B. The PC receives exactly the same scancode as when space is pressed and hold on a standard keyboard.

Hasu's firmware also allows another way of telling the PC that you are holding space: double tap space and hold it. This trick is used to generate an autorepeating space and would also work to generate a continuous "space is pressed". The problem with this is that you actually send two spaces events to the PC. One on the first tap and another one when you hold space.

Depending on how your softwares work, this may actually be usable, either with double tap or space+B.

What I mean is that SpaceFN is certainly not ideal for apps that give meaning to the fact of pressing and holding space, but SpaceFN will still work with these apps, maybe awkwardly, but at least your keyboard does not becomes totally unusable.