Unicomp Keyboard KRO

[Pspboy17]

What is the KRO on  a Unicomp Classic 104 Black Buckling Spring USB?

[metalliqaz]

Same as model M.  2kro

[Pspboy17]

Alright, have you ever had any problems gaming with 2Kro?

[metalliqaz]

Not recommended for gaming

[jabar]

2KRO on modern keyboards is fine; they are semi-optimized about the WASD cluster. The PLU-M87 works just fine in the most intense FPS situations I've encountered.

Model Ms are terrible for gaming.

[Pspboy17]

Ok, I've played on black alps, white alps, and black cherries, I like having heavy and tactile keys. Are the switches bad for gaming or the keyboard itself?

[metalliqaz]

Just try it.  See if it suits your needs.

[Aer Fixus]

What kind of gaming are you doing? I know that a Unicomp/Model M is not terrible if I just need the WASD cluster or only need to press one or two keys at once, but as soon as you add in an action key, voice chat and jumping, things start to get bad.

If you are playing rhythm games and you line up the movement keys in a row, there should be no problem, but if they are arranged like the arrow cluster, there will be problems with certain combinations of presses. My friends typically don't have problems when they use one of my keyboards for League of Legends.

The long and the short of it: you can game with one if your games do not require pressing multiple keys on multiple rows at the same time. It's not recommended for first person shooters, although I occasionally do it if there isn't another board on hand. Sometimes a key doesn't register and it just proves to be annoying. It can certainly get you killed if you can't push the right button at the right time.

Edit: Gaming will not damage the switches more than normal typing. It will wear out the WASD cluster faster, but it is unlikely you'll ever wear out them anyway.

[Pspboy17]

In reality, I only play Minecraft and Terraria on a normal basis. I've been using a Dell AT101W for about a year, and the rollover is fine except the WASD cluster + Tab.

[Aer Fixus]

In reality, I only play Minecraft and Terraria on a normal basis. I've been using a Dell AT101W for about a year, and the rollover is fine except the WASD cluster + Tab.

You will probably have the same (or similar) rollover issues as the Dell AT101 as the matrix layout is probably very similar (if not the same).

[Pspboy17]

Ok, when I test the Dell, I can get 6kro on two different rows. I have yet to find a combination if keys with less than 4. Off topic here, I've heard the Unicomp doesn't have any "ping" sound like the Model M, could you test this if you have the boards on hand?

[Aer Fixus]

Ok, when I test the Dell, I can get 6kro on two different rows. I have yet to find a combination if keys with less than 4. Off topic here, I've heard the Unicomp doesn't have any "ping" sound like the Model M, could you test this if you have the boards on hand?

On an M, a combination like: QWS will fail on the S. I cannot confirm the noise difference IRL, but this video shows them to be almost the same in sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtEA6GK3fO4

There was a very rare model that used some grease to remove the ping sound, but those are no longer commercially available, even from Unicomp. You may be confusing the difference between the Model F and the Model M. The Model F has a much more distinctive, louder and higher pitched ping than the M.

Edit: on an M or a Unicomp plugged in via PS2, you can press a full row of key successfully (more than 10 keys), but the combinations that create a right angle in the matrix cause issues and are blocked to prevent ghosting, hence the 2KRO.

[terran5992]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

[jabar]

Granted I was using my 122-key, but Tab+any WASD key didn't register, holding Control down with more than one WASD key was a problem. Generally multiple mods were a problem. All this on top of the more involved action required to sustain and/or register a buckling spring keypress.

[dorkvader]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

Any 2KRO controller can register a maximum of "about" the number of rows + the number of columns for the matrix without blocking. The model M KB is physically limited to 2KRO. Try more 3 key combinations and you will eventually find some that fail. I'm too lazy to get my unicomp from the basement, but if you like, I'll go downstairs, get on my 1390120 and find some that don't work on that. Also if you have pictures of the membranes I can tell you some.

Edit: the figure is number of rows + number of columns -1

That's why I said "about" as I wasn't sure about the -1 or not.

[ch_123]

Not recommended for gaming

Given that 99% of keyboards out there are 2KRO, most games work pretty well on 2KRO keyboards.

I get 4kro on my unicomp

The key rollover terminology in common use is quite confusing. For example, when people talk about 6KRO keyboards, they mean that the keyboard can accept a maximum of 6 keys before keys get dropped. But when they talk about 2KRO, they mean that any combination of 2 keys are guaranteed to work, but combinations of more than two may work but not all will work. Even on a cheap Dell rubber dome keyboard, I can find combinations of 20 keys (pressing down between keys, my fingers aren't that fat, or fat at all...) that are correctly registered, doesn't mean that it's a 20KRO keyboard though...

Model Ms are terrible for gaming.

Works fine for me. Admittedly I don't play that many games these days, but in the days I did, I had no issues.

[terran5992]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

Any 2KRO controller can register a maximum of "about" the number of rows * the number of columns for the matrix without blocking. The model M KB is physically limited to 2KRO. Try more 3 key combinations and you will eventually find some that fail. I'm too lazy to get my unicomp from the basement, but if you like, I'll go downstairs, get on my 1390120 and find some that don't work on that. Also if you have pictures of the membranes I can tell you some.

0.o wow thats confusing

[Soarer]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

Any 2KRO controller can register a maximum of "about" the number of rows * the number of columns for the matrix without blocking. The model M KB is physically limited to 2KRO. Try more 3 key combinations and you will eventually find some that fail. I'm too lazy to get my unicomp from the basement, but if you like, I'll go downstairs, get on my 1390120 and find some that don't work on that. Also if you have pictures of the membranes I can tell you some.

0.o wow thats confusing

And mis-remembered

Best case for a 2KRO keyboard = number of rows + number of columns - 1

(As long as the controller can cope with that many keys at once).

The '-1' is the key at the intersection of the row and column being pressed. If that is then pressed, _every_ key is then seen as pressed, by ghosting.

[E TwentyNine]

And mis-remembered

Best case for a 2KRO keyboard = number of rows + number of columns - 1

(As long as the controller can cope with that many keys at once).

The '-1' is the key at the intersection of the row and column being pressed. If that is then pressed, _every_ key is then seen as pressed, by ghosting.

You're obviously the expert here, but that's not my experience. Please clarify where I'm wrong.  It's my understanding that the best case for a 2KRO keyboard is the maximum of either group of traces (rows or columns).

Take a standard M where you have 8 leads on one membrane and 16 leads on the other. From my testing you can get 16 keys pressed max.  Which makes perfect sense - if you have all 16 leads connected to one lead on the other membrane, that's 16 keys.  Connect them to another lead simultaneously and you're going to get crossover between the traces and ghosting.

You're suggesting that I'd be able to get 23 keys pressed at once and I don't see how that's possible.

[BucklingSpring]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

I also thought I could do more than 2KRO on my Unicomps. Just like the other guy, I'm too lazy to dig one out of my stash to test it.

[dorkvader]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

I also thought I could do more than 2KRO on my Unicomps. Just like the other guy, I'm too lazy to dig one out of my stash to test it.

Ok that it, I'm testing mine now.

gonna prove something.

Ok first one I tried WED doesn't work (e is blocked)

TUH as well
WAS also

etc. The list goes on.

Now I gamed on an M for years, and I never had issues. People game on 2KRO rubberdomes all the time, and they seem to get along fine. You can use it for gaming, but it's not really the best keyboard for it.

[Soarer]

And mis-remembered

Best case for a 2KRO keyboard = number of rows + number of columns - 1

(As long as the controller can cope with that many keys at once).

The '-1' is the key at the intersection of the row and column being pressed. If that is then pressed, _every_ key is then seen as pressed, by ghosting.

You're obviously the expert here, but that's not my experience. Please clarify where I'm wrong.  It's my understanding that the best case for a 2KRO keyboard is the maximum of either group of traces (rows or columns).

Take a standard M where you have 8 leads on one membrane and 16 leads on the other. From my testing you can get 16 keys pressed max.  Which makes perfect sense - if you have all 16 leads connected to one lead on the other membrane, that's 16 keys.  Connect them to another lead simultaneously and you're going to get crossover between the traces and ghosting.

You're suggesting that I'd be able to get 23 keys pressed at once and I don't see how that's possible.

I did make a slight mistake - it should be (number of rows - 1) + (number of columns - 1), since the common key removes 1 from both the row and the column.

So for a 16x8 matrix it should be 15 + 7 = 22 possible without ghosting. Whether the controller bothers to output all of them is another matter!

Ghosting happens when you're pressing 3 corners of a rectangle on the matrix. With the pattern of pressing all but the common key in a row and a column, there are no such rectangles

[E TwentyNine]

I did make a slight mistake - it should be (number of rows - 1) + (number of columns - 1), since the common key removes 1 from both the row and the column.

So for a 16x8 matrix it should be 15 + 7 = 22 possible without ghosting. Whether the controller bothers to output all of them is another matter!

Ghosting happens when you're pressing 3 corners of a square on the matrix. With the pattern of pressing all but the common key in a row and a column, there are no such squares

As Spock might say, "My pattern indicates one dimensional thinking".   Your explanation makes sense.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, humour me here, but surely if you press all 16×8 keys, you're going to have a lot of 2×2 squares that will ghost? How do you get all those keys pressed without tripping a load of ghosts along the way?

[dorkvader]

I did make a slight mistake - it should be (number of rows - 1) + (number of columns - 1), since the common key removes 1 from both the row and the column.

As far as I understand it, this holds true for a kb matrix with more than 1 row or column.

If you want to test the KRO of an IBM controller, it might be easier to just bridge locations on the controller PCB or connector directly, rather than press keys. I also would imagine it's easier on a smaller KB like an SSK or wheelwriter.

Sadly, my wheelwriter yells at me if I try to press too many function keys at once.

[Soarer]

As far as I understand it, this holds true for a kb matrix with more than 1 row or column.

Yes, it's just a basic property of a switch matrix without diodes.

'Matrix' rather implies multiple columns and rows!

[E TwentyNine]

I did make a slight mistake - it should be (number of rows - 1) + (number of columns - 1), since the common key removes 1 from both the row and the column.

As far as I understand it, this holds true for a kb matrix with more than 1 row or column.

If you want to test the KRO of an IBM controller, it might be easier to just bridge locations on the controller PCB or connector directly, rather than press keys. I also would imagine it's easier on a smaller KB like an SSK or wheelwriter.

Sadly, my wheelwriter yells at me if I try to press too many function keys at once.

SSK is still 16x8, just that there's a lot of unused paths.

What I had done when testing was figure out which top trace of the 8 had the most active pads (15 was the max IIRC), then had someone with an M and a computer with a true ps/2 port hit those keys in order.  We got 15 at once.  I simply extrapolated to 16 as I felt my premise was sound.

But...I was thinking one dimensionally, traveling only across all the columns in a single row.  Didn't think to skip one column out of that row and go down that column to the other rows...

[Soarer]

Level 2: what's the maximum number of keys you can press on the WYSE 3161 matrix without ghosting?

Level 3: ditto for the WYSE 50 matrix?

[Hellmark]

I get 4kro on my unicomp

I also thought I could do more than 2KRO on my Unicomps. Just like the other guy, I'm too lazy to dig one out of my stash to test it.

That is just the KRO is just the minimum number of guaranteed simultaneous keys pressed. Model M's can, and will, fail with certain 3 letter combos. Does it mean you're likely to encounter it? No. I have gamed for years on a M, no real issues.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If you have all keys pressed in a matrix, except one column and one row, what stops ghosts appearing at every other group of 2×2 keys?

[Soarer]

In that case, since none of the keys in the one column and one row are pressed, there can't be any cases where the other three corners of any rectangle are pressed, for any key in that one column and one row.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Never mind, I follow now.