Topre vs ALPS vs MX Brown vs Red vs Filco vs Realforce vs USB3 v clicky v Matias

[joel96]

Whipped this bad boy together in a couple of hours:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApzIz1YSh_e7dFRnb2ZTWl9LbkNtTDd0UmxzUVlGenc&usp=sharing
This is a list of two main things: the keyboards to which I've seen (based on my three whole hours of browsing the forums) users recommended as the best keyboard with the best switches; and the keyboards recommended by users as the quietest. Ergonomics is mentioned in passing. The general mood seems to be that capacitive electrostatics are superior to any and all MX Cherry switches in every way that can be measured: capacitive electrostatic switches are quieter than anything but the Matias Quiet Pro and modded MX cherry boards, they are more responsive, and give better tactile feedback.

My goal (at least I think it is, in my unenlightened state) is to get the fastest response from the keyboard with the least amount of key exertion to a point where I can breathe on the keys and they depress, as cheaply as possible, and with USB 3.0 support so I can roll my face over all the keys and see out of the corner of my eye that more than six key presses are registering. I'm really not interested in boards with 66 keys or less--I can think of too many apps and games that require more keys than a 104-key unit has, let alone doing without the clusters I'm used to (ideally, I'd have a room like they do in Matrix Revolutions where they've got a wall of keyboards and I can assign an action to a key without using combinations or macro keys). The application I'll be using it for is streaming games; this means I need the response and speed of MX Red and Topre switch boards, but I need it to be quiet so they clicks aren't driving viewers crazy. Also, I don't really like the idea of having to listen to the same clicks several hundred thousand times over the course of my life--I like all sorts of music, but industrial ambient isn't one of those genres that deserves appreciation. I guess I"m leaning towards the $150 104-key Type Heaven--seems like users say it's the best one for gaming.

I have a Saitek Eclipse, and a Blackwidow (I think Ultimate, and red switches). I don't like either of them that much.

[PointyFox]

uhh.... 

No keyboard is best for gaming.  If you want to minimize key travel, you should look into low profile scissor switches.  They're quiet, cheap, fast, and you can probably find some boards with them and USB 3.0 ports.

[terran5992]

I would say topre.

But if you feel another switch works for you, go for it

[1pq]

I would say topre.

But if you feel another switch works for you, go for it

Personally, I hate gaming on topre switches. For your situation, I'd go with Reds or Browns, and if you want them to be quiet just use o-rings (although that ruins the feel IMO)

[Puddsy]

my god

Alright. Let me set one thing straight.

There is no "best" keyboard for anything. People will say that there is, but trust me, there isn't. No best switch, no best keyboard, no best anything. If there was, everyone would be using it, right?

Topre is a less desirable switch for gaming. "But tacticalstache," you may be saying, "everyone says the type heaven is the best, why are you saying it sucks?" I say that because topre switches miss out on a few important keyboard tricks that MX switches have. Namely a static actuation point, "allowing for floating".

ALPS and MX have proved good to me in the past. No specific switch is any better than another, though.

And another thing, I have yet to see a pro use a topre or ALPS switch keyboard for any reason other than sponsorship. Let that sink in.

[PointyFox]

my god

Alright. Let me set one thing straight.

There is no "best" keyboard for anything. People will say that there is, but trust me, there isn't. No best switch, no best keyboard, no best anything. If there was, everyone would be using it, right?

Topre is a less desirable switch for gaming. "But tacticalstache," you may be saying, "everyone says the type heaven is the best, why are you saying it sucks?" I say that because topre switches miss out on a few important keyboard tricks that MX switches have. Namely a static actuation point, "allowing for floating".

ALPS and MX have proved good to me in the past. No specific switch is any better than another, though.

And another thing, I have yet to see a pro use a topre or ALPS switch keyboard for any reason other than sponsorship. Let that sink in.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.  I'd imagine the amount of gamers that do would be even less due to many games requiring certain buttons to be held down.  "Pros" don't use Topre or ALPS because they are uncommon and I don't think any companies are using them in products targeted to gamers.

Again, no keyboard excels at gaming.  I've gone 49-3 on an FPS game using a 2KRO buckling spring keyboard.  But for your purpose you need a quiet one, and most mechanical keyboards make more noise than rubber dome based switches.

[SpAmRaY]

USB 3 whut?

[Linkbane]

The presumption in this one, first post and already going on about what keyboard is better than another.
The lightest possible switch you could have which will actuate easily is a linear MX with the lightest spring from Originative.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.  I'd imagine the amount of gamers that do would be even less due to many games requiring certain buttons to be held down.  "Pros" don't use Topre or ALPS because they are uncommon and I don't think any companies are using them in products targeted to gamers.

Again, no keyboard excels at gaming.  I've gone 49-3 on an FPS game using a 2KRO buckling spring keyboard.  But for your purpose you need a quiet one, and most mechanical keyboards make more noise than rubber dome based switches.

Pointy, you don't have any evidence for what you're talking about. Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point, that's a very stupid idea and would destroy accuracy and speed. Pros don't use Topre because they're not good boards for gaming. They're tactile and have a very bad force curve for gaming, because it drops down all the way. Something so inconsistent and dropping would not be good for a gamer, adding onto the fact that it has unnecessary tactility.

[joel96]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApzIz1YSh_e7dFRnb2ZTWl9LbkNtTDd0UmxzUVlGenc&usp=sharing
@PointyFox: Added an entry for a gloss white (bleh) low-profile scissor switch keyboard by Macally.
EDIT: I looked at my laptop's keyboard, and discovered it uses scissor switches. I haven't had a good experience with it--trying to think up reasons why (might be because it gets hot, but then again, that's the laptop; or uncomfortable, but that's because I don't use it at a desk; maybe it's because the keys are equally flat; or maybe it's because I haven't had a chance to use it in a gaming context). It is definitely the quietest of the keyboards I own (Asus K60iJ keyboard > Eclipse > Blackwidow). All I know is that it's fatiguing to use, the Eclipse less so, and the linear red-switched Blackwidow the least.
@terran5992: That narrows it down to the Topre Type Heaven 104-key Keyboard, and the Realforce104UB for me anyway. The HHKB's might be superior in their mechanisms, but I really don't want to get a separate keypad.
@1pq: If the o-rings ruin the feel, I probably ought to go with Brown, since they are marginally quieter.
@TacticalStache: which ALPS or MX keyboards do you recommend (I don't think I have any ALPS keyboards on the list), and which MX switch do you recommend for the gaming and streaming application?
@SpAmRaY: 105KRO without having to go with the PS2 interface. There's other keyboards from Cooler Master other than the Osmium I put on the list, but they're more expensive.
@Linkbane: That would be the MX Red or Black for switch design, since they're functionally identical aside from the spring. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0
The lightest MX spring has a maximum average down actuation of 63.4, a whole 7.1g higher than Originative 45g springs. I have a rough idea of how heavy 7.1g is, it is like several vitamin pills. I can see how that would make a difference over the life of the keyboard. This also isn't counting lubrication of the keys to reduce the actuation force. The CM Storm QuickFire XT is the cheapest Cherry MX Red keyboard. I'm leaning from the others in the list and more towards that one--seems like MX keyboards have a mainstream appeal anyway.

[Puddsy]

For gaming/streaming, any full size should work.

I say full size because the numpad is useful for streaming hotkeys.

Quickfire ultimate is my choice.

[Linkbane]

@Linkbane: That would be the MX Red or Black for switch design, since they're functionally identical aside from the spring. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0
The lightest MX spring has a maximum average down actuation of 63.4, a whole 7.1g higher than Originative 45g springs. I have a rough idea of how heavy 7.1g is, it is like several vitamin pills. I can see how that would make a difference over the life of the keyboard. This also isn't counting lubrication of the keys to reduce the actuation force. The CM Storm QuickFire XT is the cheapest Cherry MX Red keyboard. I'm leaning from the others in the list and more towards that one--seems like MX keyboards have a mainstream appeal anyway.

Wow, having nearly a thousand posts, I certainly wouldn't know that Reds and Blacks are linear or anything.
Thanks for telling me all this new information!
/sarcasm

All of us know this, and it's really irritating for you to insinuate that you know anything. If you want advice, get advice, stop regurgitating back information.

[tjcaustin]

The presumption in this one, first post and already going on about what keyboard is better than another.
The lightest possible switch you could have which will actuate easily is a linear MX with the lightest spring from Originative.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.  I'd imagine the amount of gamers that do would be even less due to many games requiring certain buttons to be held down.  "Pros" don't use Topre or ALPS because they are uncommon and I don't think any companies are using them in products targeted to gamers.

Again, no keyboard excels at gaming.  I've gone 49-3 on an FPS game using a 2KRO buckling spring keyboard.  But for your purpose you need a quiet one, and most mechanical keyboards make more noise than rubber dome based switches.

Pointy, you don't have any evidence for what you're talking about. Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point, that's a very stupid idea and would destroy accuracy and speed. Pros don't use Topre because they're not good boards for gaming. They're tactile and have a very bad force curve for gaming, because it drops down all the way. Something so inconsistent and dropping would not be good for a gamer, adding onto the fact that it has unnecessary tactility.

Why are you repeating what he said, but in an aggressive tone with the implication that he's wrong?

[whiteduck]

my god

Alright. Let me set one thing straight.

There is no "best" keyboard for anything. People will say that there is, but trust me, there isn't. No best switch, no best keyboard, no best anything. If there was, everyone would be using it, right?

Topre is a less desirable switch for gaming. "But tacticalstache," you may be saying, "everyone says the type heaven is the best, why are you saying it sucks?" I say that because topre switches miss out on a few important keyboard tricks that MX switches have. Namely a static actuation point, "allowing for floating".

ALPS and MX have proved good to me in the past. No specific switch is any better than another, though.

And another thing, I have yet to see a pro use a topre or ALPS switch keyboard for any reason other than sponsorship. Let that sink in.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.  I'd imagine the amount of gamers that do would be even less due to many games requiring certain buttons to be held down.  "Pros" don't use Topre or ALPS because they are uncommon and I don't think any companies are using them in products targeted to gamers.

Again, no keyboard excels at gaming.  I've gone 49-3 on an FPS game using a 2KRO buckling spring keyboard.  But for your purpose you need a quiet one, and most mechanical keyboards make more noise than rubber dome based switches.

anyone who play sc2 "floats" kthx

[Linkbane]

The presumption in this one, first post and already going on about what keyboard is better than another.
The lightest possible switch you could have which will actuate easily is a linear MX with the lightest spring from Originative.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.  I'd imagine the amount of gamers that do would be even less due to many games requiring certain buttons to be held down.  "Pros" don't use Topre or ALPS because they are uncommon and I don't think any companies are using them in products targeted to gamers.

Again, no keyboard excels at gaming.  I've gone 49-3 on an FPS game using a 2KRO buckling spring keyboard.  But for your purpose you need a quiet one, and most mechanical keyboards make more noise than rubber dome based switches.

Pointy, you don't have any evidence for what you're talking about. Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point, that's a very stupid idea and would destroy accuracy and speed. Pros don't use Topre because they're not good boards for gaming. They're tactile and have a very bad force curve for gaming, because it drops down all the way. Something so inconsistent and dropping would not be good for a gamer, adding onto the fact that it has unnecessary tactility.

Why are you repeating what he said, but in an aggressive tone with the implication that he's wrong?

It was a direct refutation, which you would probably be able to see if you read it instead of being passive aggressive.

[tjcaustin]

Ok, cool, you're just ****ing stupid.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.

Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point,

In what world is that refuting the other thing?  You said the same damn thing with different words.

Also, since you're clearly a moron, I brought you the definition of passive-aggressive (clearly you don't know it or you wouldn't have said I was being it) - A defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want under the guise of still trying to please others. They want their way, but they also want everyone to still like them.

And since I'm defining words you don't know, here's refutation, too:
ref·u·ta·tion
n.
1. The act of refuting.
2. Something, such as an argument, that refutes someone or something.

I don't know why I even bother to help fools like you.

[1pq]

Ok, cool, you're just ****ing stupid.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.

Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point,

In what world is that refuting the other thing?  You said the same damn thing with different words.

Also, since you're clearly a moron, I brought you the definition of passive-aggressive (clearly you don't know it or you wouldn't have said I was being it) - A defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want under the guise of still trying to please others. They want their way, but they also want everyone to still like them.

And since I'm defining words you don't know, here's refutation, too:
ref·u·ta·tion
n.
1. The act of refuting.
2. Something, such as an argument, that refutes someone or something.

I don't know why I even bother to help fools like you.

Oh damn. Let the flame-war commence...

[SpAmRaY]

: popcorn:

[demik]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

[1pq]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

[demik]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

oh i was joking >.<

[SpAmRaY]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

So age is irrelevant?

[rowdy]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

So age is irrelevant?

We have a thread about that: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44177.0

[SpAmRaY]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

So age is irrelevant?

We have a thread about that: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44177.0

Yes..... I am aware

[Emospence]

Topre vs Realforce... Huh.

[Linkbane]

Ok, cool, you're just ****ing stupid.

Very few people "float" on the actuation point and that's just the typists.

Typists certainly do NOT float on the actuation point,

In what world is that refuting the other thing?  You said the same damn thing with different words.

Also, since you're clearly a moron, I brought you the definition of passive-aggressive (clearly you don't know it or you wouldn't have said I was being it) - A defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want under the guise of still trying to please others. They want their way, but they also want everyone to still like them.

And since I'm defining words you don't know, here's refutation, too:
ref·u·ta·tion
n.
1. The act of refuting.
2. Something, such as an argument, that refutes someone or something.

I don't know why I even bother to help fools like you.

TJ, I'm not wasting time to argue with you. Your arrogance is absolutely out of this world.
Just keep on derailing, thanks.

[rowdy]

best keyboard is a keyboard with topre switches.


all hail the topre gods

LOL @ tj being passive aggressive.

but on the bright side, at least this 16 year old spelled it correctly.

I agree with your criticisms, but seriously dude, pulling out the age argument?

So age is irrelevant?

We have a thread about that: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44177.0

Yes..... I am aware

Some of the newer members might not be

[joel96]

Aside from adding demik's recommendation to the Topre entries, the only new edit to the list I have is the QuickFire Ultimate entry. It's a Brown switch board and has NKRO as opposed to the Red XT without NKRO; about a $30 difference (not counting cosmetics). An unmodded Brown switch would be quieter than an unmodded red switch, but a Red switch with modding would be quieter than an unmodded Brown switch; a Brown switch with modding would not be as quiet as a Red switch with modding. By modding I mean O-rings and lubricant. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[fourzeropooh]

Aside from adding demik's recommendation to the Topre entries, the only new edit to the list I have is the QuickFire Ultimate entry. It's a Brown switch board and has NKRO as opposed to the Red XT without NKRO; about a $30 difference (not counting cosmetics). An unmodded Brown switch would be quieter than an unmodded red switch, but a Red switch with modding would be quieter; a Brown switch with modding would not be as quiet as a Red switch with modding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Doesn't the QFR come in reds, browns, blues, and blacks?

[rowdy]

Aside from adding demik's recommendation to the Topre entries, the only new edit to the list I have is the QuickFire Ultimate entry. It's a Brown switch board and has NKRO as opposed to the Red XT without NKRO; about a $30 difference (not counting cosmetics). An unmodded Brown switch would be quieter than an unmodded red switch, but a Red switch with modding would be quieter; a Brown switch with modding would not be as quiet as a Red switch with modding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Doesn't the QFR come in reds, browns, blues, and blacks?

And greens!

[joel96]

Yeah, well, from earlier in the thread, the conclusion I drew was that if I were going the MX route, I should go with Brown for quietness or Red for lower actuation, which is why I mention those exclusively. Really don't know which one is better for the gaming/streaming task.

[domoaligato]

Cherry MX Super Black

[joel96]

Aren't those the opposite of what I'm looking for? High actuation and high noise?

[PointyFox]

Yeah, well, from earlier in the thread, the conclusion I drew was that if I were going the MX route, I should go with Brown for quietness or Red for lower actuation, which is why I mention those exclusively. Really don't know which one is better for the gaming/streaming task.

The actuation point is 2mm for all the MX switches.  MX Brown should be quieter than MX Red since it has the tactile bump that reduces bottoming out/bottoming out force.  The noise produced by the MX linear switches is mostly from bottoming out.

Cherry MX Super Black

Higher force linear switches tend to make less noise because you're not bottoming out, or bottoming out as hard; so MX Dark Grey should be quieter than MX Black, which should be quieter than MX Red.

[domoaligato]

I was actually joking about suggesting mx super blacks.

[joel96]

Another thing that came up is the size of the keyboard. I prefer non-compact boards. Maybe it's because it's more ergonomically correct. To give an idea of how big I'm looking for, I wouldn't want to go much smaller than my current keyboard's length of 50cm (and that's because there's these corner thingies that extend out beyond the profile of the Eclipse). Maybe 45cm.
Added a different Brown keyboard to the list that has NKRO: The CM QuickFire Pro. It's 46cm.

[domoaligato]

fyi the CM Storm QuickFire XT is considered a upgrade from the CM Storm QuickFire Pro. But if your going to go full size the filco fullsize are the way to go in MX
otherwise.... a good old IBM Model M might suit you.

[terran5992]

fyi the CM Storm QuickFire XT is considered a upgrade from the CM Storm QuickFire Pro. But if your going to go full size the filco fullsize are the way to go in MX
otherwise.... a good old IBM Model M might suit you.

Isnt going to fullsize a downgrade?

[1pq]

fyi the CM Storm QuickFire XT is considered a upgrade from the CM Storm QuickFire Pro. But if your going to go full size the filco fullsize are the way to go in MX
otherwise.... a good old IBM Model M might suit you.

Isnt going to fullsize a downgrade?

The quickfire pro is fullsize. I think he was talking specifically about the QF XT vs the QF Pro

[Awful]

I would say topre.

But if you feel another switch works for you, go for it

Personally, I hate gaming on topre switches. For your situation, I'd go with Reds or Browns, and if you want them to be quiet just use o-rings (although that ruins the feel IMO)

This is proof no switch is best, I own a mx red board and an mx brown and I prefer my hhkb over both.

[1pq]

I would say topre.

But if you feel another switch works for you, go for it

Personally, I hate gaming on topre switches. For your situation, I'd go with Reds or Browns, and if you want them to be quiet just use o-rings (although that ruins the feel IMO)

^^ true, it all comes down to personal preference.

This is proof no switch is best, I own a mx red board and an mx brown and I prefer my hhkb over both.

[joel96]

The Ninja Majestouch-2 is the only filco board on the list. I added your name as a recommendation to it. Why is the XT and going compact considered the upgrade? Is it like phone texting and court stenographers with their teeny tiny typewriters able to write down what two people are saying at once?
What is is about the filco full-size boards people like?

[domoaligato]

Filco build quality is excellent and you can get a programable replacent controller.

[joel96]

What do programable replacent controllers do? The description of the Majestouch-2 doesn't say anything about it. The entry I added for the Majestouch-2 was the FKBN104M/EB2; that's the brown 104-key version with the lettering on the top of the keys. I'd prefer the FKBN104M/EFB2 Ninja without the lettering on the top of the keys, but I don't think I can justify the $26.18 additional cost when I could get a set of black key caps.

[domoaligato]

bpiphany makes and sells them as kits for qfr and filco tkl and full sizes

[Emospence]

Isnt going to fullsize a downgrade?

Huh?

[Emospence]

Double post.

[domoaligato]

What do programable replacent controllers do? The description of the Majestouch-2 doesn't say anything about it. The entry I added for the Majestouch-2 was the FKBN104M/EB2; that's the brown 104-key version with the lettering on the top of the keys. I'd prefer the FKBN104M/EFB2 Ninja without the lettering on the top of the keys, but I don't think I can justify the $26.18 additional cost when I could get a set of black key caps.

I am sorry when I posted earlier I was on tapatalk on my phone.

the model of filco tkl doesn't matter. I am talking about options to modify/customize the keyboard later if you wish to do so.

the cm qfr, filco tkl, filco fullsize are all supported by the programmable controllers in this thread http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46700.0
you can remap any key to any thing you want. you can add custom function layers and macros...
here is a link to the wiki page for the firmware...
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Costar_replacement_controllers

and here is someone else's codebase

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51252.0

and the HID Liberation Device for filco tkl is here
http://deskthority.net/wiki/HID_Liberation_Device_-_Instructions

and the very popular hasu tmk firmware supports this as well...
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41989.0

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46700.0

[terran5992]

Double post.

TKL is more ergonomic

[domoaligato]

Double post.

TKL is more ergonomic

"ergonomic" is a very personalized thing. everyone is different.

[Linkbane]

Double post.

TKL is more ergonomic

"ergonomic" is a very personalized thing. everyone is different.

Not having to reach as far for your mouse is ergonomic unless you have tentacles instead of hands (in which case you probably wouldn't be using a computer).