CES News: Matias Secure Pro wireless mechanical keyboard with AES encryption

[Matias]

Just announced...

http://matias.ca/securepro

http://matias.ca/securepro/pr

Let me know if there are any questions.

[SpAmRaY]

Matias why not have one big thread instead of multiples, that way we can find all the info in once place?

[kmiller8]

Matias why not have one big thread instead of multiples, that way we can find all the info in once place?

So we can discuss each board individually obviously.

About the board, why encrypt a wireless keyboard? are people seriously cracking into these?

[SpAmRaY]

So where's the new 60% board?

[jwaz]

Matias why not have one big thread instead of multiples, that way we can find all the info in once place?

So we can discuss each board individually obviously.

About the board, why encrypt a wireless keyboard? are people seriously cracking into these?

Whether you’re typing a password or entering bank information, encryption is essential for anyone using a wireless keyboard, and the Secure Pro takes care of it all for you, automatically.

I'm a little confused as well, none of this does any good if somebody already has access to your machine.

[osi]

I like this idea a lot. Congrats for bringing it to production as well!

[OldDogmeat]

Matias why not have one big thread instead of multiples, that way we can find all the info in once place?

So we can discuss each board individually obviously.

About the board, why encrypt a wireless keyboard? are people seriously cracking into these?

Whether you’re typing a password or entering bank information, encryption is essential for anyone using a wireless keyboard, and the Secure Pro takes care of it all for you, automatically.

I'm a little confused as well, none of this does any good if somebody already has access to your machine.

I may be wrong but I expect what might be happening is that hackers are using scanning equipment that can receive a wireless signal, thus if they can then decode said data they get every key press you make, including your bank login details if you're unlucky.

[bueller]

Matias why not have one big thread instead of multiples, that way we can find all the info in once place?

So we can discuss each board individually obviously.

About the board, why encrypt a wireless keyboard? are people seriously cracking into these?

Whether you’re typing a password or entering bank information, encryption is essential for anyone using a wireless keyboard, and the Secure Pro takes care of it all for you, automatically.

I'm a little confused as well, none of this does any good if somebody already has access to your machine.

Yeah its not the machine that's compromised, bluetooth actually has a pretty bad history when it comes to security. In earlier releases it was very easy to crack the bluetooth packets with the right knowledge.

[Matias]

Thanks for the comments and questions...

Yes, Bluetooth is not the greatest, in terms of security.  In fact, I heard that Apple does not allow employees to use their own Bluetooth keyboard, for fear that customer information could be compromised.  They only allow wired and AES encrypted wireless (like the Secure Pro).  Governments also require AES128 for wireless keyboards.

The 60% wll come next.  We're planning to use the same arrow key + nav cluster as the Ergo Pro, giving you a 60% keyboard with full nav key support -- as I hinted weeks ago, a no compromises 60% layout.

[esoomenona]

Why do your descriptions have so much hype and a couple untruths?

[SpAmRaY]

I got my first matias the other day and I like it but I don't like the shiny finish.

Matias you guys ever consider a different finish for the case?

[Matias]

I got my first matias the other day and I like it but I don't like the shiny finish.

Matias you guys ever consider a different finish for the case?

Sorry, I forgot to mention... the case is matte black -- not shiny.

[Matias]

Why do your descriptions have so much hype and a couple untruths?

There's a very nice "Topre switch w/ MX Compatible Stem" thread that you might enjoy more... 

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50380.new;topicseen#new

[divito]

The 60% wll come next.

Next, as in during CES, or soon throughout Geekhack IC/GB?

Excellent innovation and life you're breathing into the hobby; Canadian to boot! Really debating which Matias to try/buy.

[ValerieV]

When is Matias going to make a tactile mini BLUETOOTH keyboard? 

[tuxsavvy]

I love the idea of how there is now a vendor that is serious (once again) on encrypting data streams over wireless and embedding that into a mechanical keyboard. However I am a bit broke so I can only comment from afar. 

Though the support seems to be mainly for windows and mac, what about those of us whom are not using either of those platforms?

I take it that people have hinted it runs on bluetooth which will be strictly 2.4GHz band for the keyboard?

Also something that would be nice would be to incorporate some sort of a charging indicator, maybe even the functionality (if not implemented) to allow the keyboard to function as a regular wired keyboard when charging (and not paired if using bluetooth) and remains as regular wired keyboard until the power is unplugged.

[bhtooefr]

When is Matias going to make a tactile mini BLUETOOTH keyboard? 

Well, they do have the Laptop Pro...

[BucklingSpring]

I too is waiting for the 60%

Can't wait to see how the navigation cluster will look on it.

[bhtooefr]

I'm guessing (this is pure conjecture based on Matias's design decisions on the Ergo Pro, comments made about the 60%, and some Apple design decisions made on their laptops) that it would look something like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5444111eff3db2073a1be95cd9354c46

[BucklingSpring]

I'm guessing (this is pure conjecture based on Matias's design decisions on the Ergo Pro, comments made about the 60%, and some Apple design decisions made on their laptops) that it would look something like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5444111eff3db2073a1be95cd9354c46

I bluntly took the liberty to use your design and flipped the colors. Here's the speculative picture:


The fat first row doesn't bug me. Speaking of fat... I NEED this fat RSHIFT. if it looks anwhere close to this then I'm all in and will click BUY as soon as such a button appear on the Internet.

Meanwhile, I still have a brand new Pure PRO for sale that I don't like because of the tiny RSHIFT :-)

[bhtooefr]

Also, seems I'm missing a key somewhere, based on this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50523.msg1139264#msg1139264

R Shift is big, so I got that right, and I got Fn on the correct side (the position is copying Apple, but it could be anywhere over on the left). However, there's a delete key I'm missing. Worse, not sure where it would go, unless the space bar were truncated another unit.

[BucklingSpring]

Also, seems I'm missing a key somewhere, based on this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50523.msg1139264#msg1139264

R Shift is big, so I got that right, and I got Fn on the correct side (the position is copying Apple, but it could be anywhere over on the left). However, there's a delete key I'm missing. Worse, not sure where it would go, unless the space bar were truncated another unit.

Thats fine.

Matias why do you let us speculate? Just show us the darn thing :-)

[ValerieV]

When is Matias going to make a tactile mini BLUETOOTH keyboard? 

Well, they do have the Laptop Pro...

Yes but it isn't clicky! 

[dorkvader]

I'm guessing (this is pure conjecture based on Matias's design decisions on the Ergo Pro, comments made about the 60%, and some Apple design decisions made on their laptops) that it would look something like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5444111eff3db2073a1be95cd9354c46

I bluntly took the liberty to use your design and flipped the colors. Here's the speculative picture:
(Attachment Link)

The fat first row doesn't bug me. Speaking of fat... I NEED this fat RSHIFT. if it looks anwhere close to this then I'm all in and will click BUY as soon as such a button appear on the Internet.

Meanwhile, I still have a brand new Pure PRO for sale that I don't like because of the tiny RSHIFT :-)

Yeah I wondered how he would do it, and I really like this design. I can't wait for it to come out.

Also my coworker thinks browns are too loud even though I dont bottom out the top out noise is too much for his sensitive ears. It's barely louder than the dell RD he uses but whatever. I need a quiet matias KB to keep him happy

[smknjoe]

This is why I switched back to wired keyboards only, years ago. Bluetooth communications are typically wide open and easily intercepted even from far away. I'm glad to see someone attempt to address this problem.

[captain]

Why all the conjecture?  He gave us the link.  It looks like this:



and if I read correctly, no, it does not use bluetooth at all, it has a USB dongle receiver. 

Nice work Matias!  I started trying to build one of these a while back, but shelved the project.  I just wish it had Cherry MX Blues, and backlighting!  ;-)

Even so, let me know if there's a serious geekhack discount or Group Buy.  PM/email me. 

[Belfong]

I'm guessing (this is pure conjecture based on Matias's design decisions on the Ergo Pro, comments made about the 60%, and some Apple design decisions made on their laptops) that it would look something like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5444111eff3db2073a1be95cd9354c46

I bluntly took the liberty to use your design and flipped the colors. Here's the speculative picture:
(Attachment Link)

The fat first row doesn't bug me. Speaking of fat... I NEED this fat RSHIFT. if it looks anwhere close to this then I'm all in and will click BUY as soon as such a button appear on the Internet.

Meanwhile, I still have a brand new Pure PRO for sale that I don't like because of the tiny RSHIFT :-)

I prefer it in white, in the spirit of the Apple keyboard, and that the font is italicise... but I am not sure if I like the fat bottom row.

[bhtooefr]

Why all the conjecture?  He gave us the link.  It looks like this:

FWIW, the conjecture is about the 60% that Matias has discussed.

Not the Secure Pro. We know what that is, it's a PC Quiet Pro with wireless.

[smknjoe]

and if I read correctly, no, it does not use bluetooth at all, it has a USB dongle receiver. 

Regardless of the actual protocol used it's still short range radio communication using standard 2.4GHz (which bluetooth also uses) or 5GHz frequencies that can easily be seen with off the shelf hardware and is a security risk seldom considered in the electronic security world. Kudos to Matias for considering it.

[bbl]

Could the battery in the keyboard be replaced?  Assuming not, how long will the battery last until it dies?  Well, those in the smartphone can go for, maybe, 2-3 years until they become "unusable". 

It could be a big disappointment given we are talking about a mechanical keyboard. 

[Belfong]

Matias said in his website that a single charge can last 6 months. So I think it's pretty durable.

[Matias]

Sorry for the delayed reply.  Been swamped with CES-related stuff...

The battery will probably outlive the keyboard. Part of the reason it's big is to allow for depletion over time. Brand new, you're getting 6 to 12 months on a single charge.  After 10 years, you'll likely get perhaps a month per charge -- still very respectable.  Many wireless keyboards only give you a few weeks use brand-new.

The speculative 60% layout posted is pretty close to what we had in mind.  The Ctrl and Fn should be swapped with a 1.25 Ctrl.  Delete next to the R-Shift key.  Will post more info soon.

Ok plane back to Toronto is boarding.  More info soon...

[bhtooefr]

So like this, then? Hmm.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5

Not a full-size RShift, then, but still...

I've got some ideas for making the layout a bit tighter in the bottom row, so RShift can remain full size, although it puts Insert and Delete in a dangerous location. This follows Dell and Lenovo's recent trend of putting PgUp and PgDn in the arrow cluster, although the argument could be made for swapping them with Home and End (because Home and End are left/right functions, PgUp and PgDn are up/down functions): http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/30ab986cc8b01a9e84c3a5cf98e7e889

Another option would be putting Insert as Fn-Delete, and using a 1.5 U tall key for Delete, which I'd say is a fair tradeoff, but then risks confusing Delete with right Alt.

There is also leaving Delete alone, pulling PgUp/PgDn into the arrow cluster, and then just using the added unit for more spacebar or another key (like Menu).

Really, it's a tradeoff no matter what you do.

[bbl]

Any indicator light on the keyboard to show when you need to recharge the battery?  If not, how can you tell when to recharge?  When the keys don't respond?

I suppose it is the same for many wireless devices and keyboards on the market.  Just want to know.

[Belfong]

In my work ThinkPad, the arrow keys are the inverted T. Above the left arrow is the Page Up and above the right arrow is Page Down. I think this makes more sense for the navigation clusters. And putting Home and End as a function layer. But I think there was a discussion somewhere on the frequency of Home and End usage so some people might not like them being in Fn layer. But I'm not sure if fat bottom row is attractive to me.

[bhtooefr]

For what it's worth, if we're handing out free unicorns, this is what I'd want in a 60ish% layout, with a real TrackPoint (which is what the colored buttons are for, they're not actually keys):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1de3f28f4ffd21f6f51912cb44d8b9e6

Right Alt could be 1 U wide, to be honest, and I'd be happy with that, as well.

[mooswa]

For what it's worth, if we're handing out free unicorns, this is what I'd want in a 60ish% layout, with a real TrackPoint (which is what the colored buttons are for, they're not actually keys):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1de3f28f4ffd21f6f51912cb44d8b9e6

Right Alt could be 1 U wide, to be honest, and I'd be happy with that, as well.

But...but... there is no right Ctrl ?!

[bhtooefr]

The ThinkPad keyboard is using a .75 U Windows key, and 1 U Alts, FWIW, in the Windows key versions.

And, actually, my real ideal layout is .5 U narrower (.25 U taken out of the spacebar, .25 out of right Alt, and .5 out of backspace, \, Enter, and RShift). But that's not ISO-friendly, and even pulling .25 U out makes keycap availability that much harder.

[Matias]

So like this, then? Hmm.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5

Not a full-size RShift, then, but still...

Yes, that's pretty close.

I've got some ideas for making the layout a bit tighter in the bottom row, so RShift can remain full size, although it puts Insert and Delete in a dangerous location. This follows Dell and Lenovo's recent trend of putting PgUp and PgDn in the arrow cluster, although the argument could be made for swapping them with Home and End (because Home and End are left/right functions, PgUp and PgDn are up/down functions):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/30ab986cc8b01a9e84c3a5cf98e7e889

We tried a layout like this, but it tested very badly.

Without the blank spaces on either side of Up Arrow, it's very difficult to feel your way around.  You lose your bearings, and have to constantly look down at the keyboard -- very annoying.

Really, it's a tradeoff no matter what you do.

Exactly correct.

So, given the choice, I'd rather do something that includes all keys in standard-ish positions, and keeps you out of the Fn layer as much as possible.  That's what I meant by no compromises.

[Matias]

Any indicator light on the keyboard to show when you need to recharge the battery?  If not, how can you tell when to recharge?  When the keys don't respond?

Yes, a Red light flashes when it's time to recharge.

[BucklingSpring]

So like this, then? Hmm.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5

Yes, that's pretty close.

Can you confirm the RSHIFT is at least twice the length of a regular key? Because I'm not sure what I would hate the most. Hitting up arrow on my Pure Pro or hitting DEL on Matias'.
The Pure Pro has a tiny RSHIFT with two additional keys on its right (UP arrow and Ctrl)

[Matias]

So like this, then? Hmm.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/48b46e2bfca09f2d7399e9b8f0a206c5

Yes, that's pretty close.

Can you confirm the RSHIFT is at least twice the length of a regular key?

I can confirm that R-Shift is exactly twice the width of a regular key.

[bhtooefr]

Hmm, so that means that your 60% is a quarter unit wider, you're using non-standard staggering, or delete is .75 x 1 U.

[user888]

@Matias. No offense, but I'm afraid the world is not waiting for AES encryption in products coming from the US. I'm not sure how to work around that. I assume it's closed source? To gain trust you could make it open source and allow your users to compile it and update the firmware with it. It's still no 100% proof that there are no backdoors, because there are still closed-source hardware parts. It's the tough reality of a post-NSA world I'm afraid.

However, I don't have a use-case for such an AES encrypted keyboard though, but it's a nice innovation. I also really like the thoughts behind the Ergo Pro keyboard, I will keep an eye on that. That Mac version that is.

[osi]

@Matias. No offense, but I'm afraid the world is not waiting for AES encryption in products coming from the US. I'm not sure how to work around that. I assume it's closed source? To gain trust you could make it open source and allow your users to compile it and update the firmware with it. It's still no 100% proof that there are no backdoors, because there are still closed-source hardware parts. It's the tough reality of a post-NSA world I'm afraid.

However, I don't have a use-case for such an AES encrypted keyboard though, but it's a nice innovation. I also really like the thoughts behind the Ergo Pro keyboard, I will keep an eye on that. That Mac version that is.

Good thing he's based out of Canada

[bhtooefr]

If you're really THAT worried about it, use a damn wired keyboard, or a Faraday cage.

(Which is not a bad idea, to be honest.)

[user888]

Good thing he's based out of Canada

My bad ;-)  for some reason I assumed California. Haha.

[smferris]

How will encryption keys be managed?