WTF did I just buy?

[bhtooefr]

This thing is a Fujitsu FKB4725. It's tactile, I'd say quietish clicky, and not Alps, Cherry, or BS. The keys REALLY don't like being hit off-center, and center isn't the center, it's the far edge of the key, making backspace and enter a chore to type on, but such is life.

Tactility is DIRECTLY connected to keystroke transmission. But, the keyboard feels... rubbery. And, there is what looks suspiciously like a rubber dome underneath a spring.

Let me try to get some macro pics of the switch (the F11 keycap is missing,) though.

[alpslover]

yes, it's spring over rubber dome over membrane.

[Eclairz]

sounds more like a MY switch than a topre

[bhtooefr]

Pics:


Switch top (you could argue that it's the bottom piece of a two-piece key)


Switch opened, with switch top upside down


Flash picture of switch opened


Picture of keycap interface, with an Alps keycap on right for comparison (no, an Alps cap doesn't work.)

[alpslover]

the keycap pushes down on the spring which pushes down on the white plastic cup which pushes down on the rubber dome which squeezes the membrane and closes the switch.

i have a tandy-branded keyboard that uses these fujitsu switches.  it looks exactly like a model m except for the on-key status led's, and it even weighs about the same (possibly even more).  sadly, it's not a very nice keyboard to type on - although the switch action feels somewhat like a quieter, dampened buckling spring, it also feels rubbery as bhtooefr observed, and hitting the larger keys off-'center' results in severe binding (perhaps this is the result of years of use).

[bhtooefr]

Honestly, the rubberiness could be dealt with if you just mash the HELL out of the switches, I don't feel it that much when I do that. But, the wide key issue makes it a pain in the ass to type on.

Oh, and based on the nature of the issue, I think an older example of the keyboard would actually be better.

Also, key travel feels a little on the short side for me.

[bhtooefr]

Alright, never mind, this thing sucks ass to type on. It's better than a regular rubber dome, that's for sure, but it's not good. I find it extremely tiring to type on, and pretty heavy - but not a good heavy like a Model M, but a bad heavy like trying to walk through deep mud.

[bhtooefr]

Interestingly, Fujitsu is still making a version of this board with "F-key rollover," the FKB4726-651/20. (Mine is an FKB4725-501.) They claim 55g force for that board... I could believe it, but my 60g Cherry blues don't feel like slogging through deep mud like these do.

[dw_junon]

I'm typing this post with one...  This one's seen some action; the actuation force and tactility is inconsistent.  My F12 key has nice crisp clicks, if at least psychologically seeming to require too much force, whereas the a key almost flops down with little more than a dull thud.

Ironically the force required to depress the home row feels appropriate (excuse me while I delete a load of asdfjkl;...), but the feel is like stiff rubber domes, with no obvious resistance at all beyond the initial threshold until the actuation point, when suddenly there is another surprisingly steep force threshold to cross.  Very odd feeling.  There seems to be no tactile feedback in the space bar at all, though admittedly that's possibly by design.

If I place my fingers on F5-F8 and F9-F12 instead, the feel is much more satisfying; perhaps the noise is an incentive to press that bit harder.  Nevertheless it still feels that   too much force is required, or arguably perhaps that the actuation point is too late, but the travel distance seems fine enough back on the home row.

Anyhow, after purchasing this example, even with the moderate potential displayed, I'm still not tempted to find a new example (ISTR production of it in UK 105 (possibly other international layouts too) ceased only in the past couple of years or so).

[bhtooefr]

Don't worry, UK layout FKB4726s are still in production - same crap, just with N-key rollover.

[dw_junon]

Don't worry, UK layout FKB4726s are still in production - same crap, just with N-key rollover.

Aha, yeah.  As I was reading, I thought "wasn't there a 4726?"..

Hang on a minute: http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/components/input/keyboards/

The only UK 'board here with the magic A is a FKB8729, which looking at the picture brings back memories of grubbiness and coffee stains somewhere... data sheet says merely "membrane switch".

With all this said, I'm not really interested myself.  Right now I'm trying to convince myself that I don't actually need to order anything from Unicomp, particularly since I can see six usable Model Ms from here...

[bhtooefr]

Oh, my bad. Guess they didn't want to move the UK layout boards to RoHS. (AFAICT, that's what the /20 is.)

[dw_junon]

Yeah, certainly looks like that.

heh, it's ironic from a FKB4700 series perspective.  As part of the strategy for complying with the new European requirements, abandon the European layouts...

Thanks for your trouble.

[bhtooefr]

You know, I could really see a casual hunt and peck typist liking this. "Soft and cushy" like a rubber dome, yet still very tactile, with a small amount of auditory feedback.

[dw_junon]

An interesting thought; a "compromise" action.  Weird.  Would they rave on youtube about it, though?

Here's Sandy's take: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/peerless.html

[lam47]

amazing sig list dw!
Do you get most of your boards on ebay or is there another source for us in the UK?

[zwmalone]

Another member also has one of these.

[bhtooefr]

Scored 92 WPM, 100% accuracy on 1 minute of The Enchanted Typewriter on the Fujitsu... moving to the M10...

95 WPM gross, 97% accuracy, 93 WPM on the M10...

101 WPM gross, 98% accuracy (one or two errors caused by USB issues on my machine, actually,) 99 WPM net on the EnduraPro.

105 WPM gross, 93% accuracy (several errors caused by the spacebar malfunctioning,) 98 WPM net on my ThinkPad's built in keyboard.

Of course, that COULD be sampling error, note that the gross speed went up with every take.

[bhtooefr]

Hmm, that link is interesting. I'm on the Fujitsu now, and... even though it feels like typing on a Model M that's had lengthened springs (reducing the necessary travel for actuation,) and then submerged in mud... I keep wanting to type on it more. Guess in a week I'll review it.

The tactility is quite good, actually.

And, because of the way it works, it'll be stupid-easy to change out the springs for something lighter. I might actually experiment with some cheap pen springs, although I have to be careful of the length. Cutting springs might work, too, by making the travel longer, making it nicer to type on in that way, too - although the keys may no longer bottom out properly. But, the typing-in-mud feeling I think is partially caused by over-stiff springs.

Anyway, this keyboard does seem to at least be built fairly well except for that little key stabilization issue, and it is interesting that Fujitsu is still making these things, with n-key rollover, even.

[bhtooefr]

Actually, cancel that. I was thinking backwards. As it's the rubber dome sheet that needs to buckle, the springs HAVE to be this stiff. So, the rubber dome sheet would need to be replaced, to make this feel better. Crap.

[bhtooefr]

And, my right pinky is actually a little sore. Test aborted for tonight, back on the M10. (Which, by the way, I still like. )

[bhtooefr]

Hmm... some observations made using a solid object in place of the spring...

Mushiness goes down the stiffer the "spring" gets
Key force goes down (not up) the stiffer the spring gets - think about it, the rubber dome is actuated earlier
Rubber dome actuation point is likely directly connected to spring stiffness
Tactility and noise go down the stiffer the spring gets - with a solid object, it behaves as a conventional rubber dome.

And I think that's exactly the problem - they used a regular rubber dome sheet, not a low force one.

Edit: Directly comparing this with a 1391401... there is an alternate answer, that had they done this, would have made this keyboard feel 90% as good as a Model M, for most likely much less money.

Make the springs longer, slightly lower weight. The added length will make up for the mushiness, and won't make it feel so horrible when you get on the keys. I think that's what makes the board so tiring to type on, it's got way too high INITIAL force. Reduce the initial force, keep everything else the same, and you've got an excellent keyboard.

[ander]

Let's see: I have a legitimate comment to make on this topic. It's been so long since the last post, though, if I join in now, someone might ridicule me, make gravedigging analogies, etc., as I've seen happen on less intelligent forums where people aren't sharing such treasured esoteric interests.

Should I post anyway? Well, having observed the high level of knowledge, sophistication and hospitality here, I doubt anyone would do something so negative and trivial. It's obviously silly of me to think otherwise.

Besides, the keyboards we're discussing are what, 20 or 30 years old? So why can't we spend a few years talking about them?

Uh-oh, I've spent so much time pondering all this, I have to leave for work now. I'll come back later and post my actual message. Next time, I'll be sure to give these guys more credit and not worry so needlessly.

[azhdar]

holy ****, 5years 361days. I think we have a new necro record.

[Sent]

The necro is strong here.  I'm impressed. )

[rowdy]

I think this is a necro record!

Strangely the OP is still active on GH, last logged in earlier this week.

[SpAmRaY]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

I think Microsoft Windows holds the record... he intentionally necro'ed the oldest thread in existence...

[SpAmRaY]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

I think Microsoft Windows holds the record... he intentionally necro'ed the oldest thread in existence...

I did that once but it was a while ago so there could be older threads now.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

I think Microsoft Windows holds the record... he intentionally necro'ed the oldest thread in existence...

I did that once but it was a while ago so there could be older threads now.

older threads than the oldest one in existence?

man, you're necro powers are super-human...

[SpAmRaY]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

I think Microsoft Windows holds the record... he intentionally necro'ed the oldest thread in existence...

I did that once but it was a while ago so there could be older threads now.

older threads than the oldest one in existence?

man, you're necro powers are super-human...

What I meant was at the time of the necro the particular thread I necro'd was the oldest thread possible to necro.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think this is a necro record!

Nah not even close.

I think Microsoft Windows holds the record... he intentionally necro'ed the oldest thread in existence...

I did that once but it was a while ago so there could be older threads now.

older threads than the oldest one in existence?

man, you're necro powers are super-human...

What I meant was at the time of the necro the particular thread I necro'd was the oldest thread possible to necro.

oh right... gotcha...

confused myself there...

[ander]

Hey, schmucks: Are we here to talk keyboards, and encourage others to do so? Or to try to inhibit keyboard love based on some flimsy excuse like how old a thread is?

I wasn't around for your childhoods, so I don't know what your priorities are—but I'm here to geek.

You don't go around the forum trying to shame people out of using 1980s keyboards, do you? So why give them a hard time for continuing threads on technology that's been around much, much longer than the threads you're being so anal about?

Aren't there are enough people in the world who don't care about KB's? Suppose we be the people who do care about them, and transcend the need for the adolescent sniping?

Thanks—I knew you could do it.

[SpAmRaY]

Hey, schmucks: Are we here to talk keyboards, and encourage others to do so? Or to try to inhibit keyboard love based on some flimsy excuse like how old a thread is?

I wasn't around for your childhoods, so I don't know what your priorities are—but I'm here to geek.

You don't go around the forum trying to shame people out of using 1980s keyboards, do you? So why give them a hard time for continuing threads on technology that's been around much, much longer than the threads you're being so anal about?

Aren't there are enough people in the world who don't care about KB's? Suppose we be the people who do care about them, and transcend the need for the adolescent sniping?

Thanks—I knew you could do it.

Why so serious?

Typically when a thread is 5-7 years old most of the participants aren't around so its recommended to start a new thread.

You are more than welcome to link the old thread and simply say you want to continue the discussion.

[ander]

Why so serious?

I was "serious" because this was the third or fourth time someone ragged on me for reviving (the correct word, BTW) an interesting thread that hadn't been posted to for a while.

Typically when a thread is 5-7 years old most of the participants aren't around so its recommended to start a new thread... You are more than welcome to link the old thread and simply say you want to continue the discussion.

Okay—then everyone would have to:

• Read my post in a new thread
• Go back and read the original thread
• Possibly want to quote text from the original thread, to keep everything coherent—so they'd need to start a dummy "quoted" reply, copy it, then cancel the reply
• Return to the new thread to post their message.

Sheesh, why bother?

Again, most of the stuff we discuss here is of ongoing interest to KB peeps. If anyone's nervous about date stamps, they can just ignore them and read everything as though it'd been posted in the same week, or on the same day—it'd rarely matter.

And of course the forum software moves newly-posted-to threads to the top of the "recent" list, regardless of how long it's been since their next-to-last posts—so it's not as though anyone misses anything.

Well, sorry if I seemed harsh. You guys are all great; I was just frustrated.

Suppose we bravely usher in a new age of freedom from this neurotic fear of "old" threads? I think it'd be a healthy move for everybody. Don't we KB maniacs have enough to be obsessive about?

[Belfong]

You know, I read through these hoping ander would go on topic on this thread. Why don't you do that please? I'm interested to read about this old keyboard.

[bhtooefr]

* bhtooefr bloviates about whether he should try to bring the thread back on topic, or let it get to 43 replies, so half the thread is bloviating about necroposting

Or not. Images fixed (if an old post of mine has broken images, try bhtooefr.org instead of bhtooefr.ath.cx), I don't have the keyboard any more, don't even remember where it went.

[ander]

Sigh... It wasn't my idea to veer away from the topic. Actually, what I posted up there was an objection to doing so. Guess you can't win.

[HoffmanMyster]

I have a legitimate comment to make on this topic.

 

Still waiting...