Author Topic: Buckling Spring Keyboards (Read 10991 times)

patrickgeekhack · « **on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 23:27:14 »

I mentioned this in one of my replies in another thread. Ten years ago, I got a buckling spring keyboard when I purchased a no name PC. I did not care much about this keyboard at that time because the force required to press the keys was more than what one would need with a Model M. And because the keys did not have much travel, my fingers would hurt after a while. When I moved to Canada 2 years later, I did not bring the keyboard with me for two reasons. It was an AT keyboard, and going for a new adventure, keyboard was the last thing on my mind. I was more worried about my future in Canada as I did not have a job waiting for me. I wish I had brought it with me, it would have been a nice addition to my collection. I'm going back to visit my parents soon and will check if they still have it sitting somewhere. If they do, I will bring it back with me

I know for sure it was a buckling spring one due to its distinctive sound when pressing the keys.

Anyway, the purpose of my thread is who else beside IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp manufacture(d) buckling spring keyboard?

cchan · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 23:31:42 »

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=575 (Unbranded section)

Ya Sheng made buckling spring boards, but they're widely regarded as being pieces of crap.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 00:43:40 »

The thing is, it might not have been an actual buckling spring board, but some other tactile switch. Keyboards using the Fujitsu Peerless technology do feel like a very heavy, somewhat spongy, short travel Model M, even though the only thing they have in common is a spring, and it doesn't buckle in the Fujitsu.

Chloe · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 01:16:27 »

It's a buckling spring over membrane switch:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/main_nb_mechanical_touch.htm

bhtooefr · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 07:39:26 »

I know the Ya Sheng is, but I'm meaning that what patrickgeekhack had might not have been a Ya Sheng board.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 08:10:47 »

Thank you all for your input. I guess the only way to find out will be to get my hands on the keyboard itself. I'll call my mother during the weekend and ask her if the old keyboards are still there or have been thrown away. I hope they are still there.

I bought two PCs from the same seller (2 years apart). The first one came with an unbranded ergo keyboard (which I liked more than the Microsoft one). Although it was a dome-switch keyboard, the keys had a nice clicky sound. The second PC came with the "undefined mechanical" keyboards. The weird thing, the guy initially gave me the keyboard but with Azerty layout. I asked him to replace it.

dw_junon · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 09:41:17 »

I agree it's possible that it could have been a Fujitsu FKB4700 series 'board. They've been OEM'd, and also often appear generic without the word "Fujitsu" in sight at all.

Generally I think it's hard to be sure exactly what is under keys from general use unless you happen to be intimately familiar with that exact type...

AT&T were granted a patent on "quiet" buckling spring, see the post about patents.

I've found an AT&T 'board that is suspicious in this respect... see here.

MANISH7 · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 19:34:44 »

If I'm not mistaken, isn't buckling spring technology a patent that Lexmark sold to Unicomp? Since IBM & Lexmark no longer make keyboards, I assume only Unicomp can manufacture keyboards with this patent protected technology.

zwmalone · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 21:29:05 »

The patents expired. Anybody can make keyboards with buckling springs now. IIRC they ran out ~11 years ago...

Chloe · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 21:46:03 »

The Chinese patent for Ya Sheng (胜亚股份有限公司/Can Technology) buckling spring was granted in 1993. The other patent numbers on the keyboard do not seem to be valid. I compiled a tif of the original patent drawings for those who can't view it here:
http://123.127.249.110:88/Translationtoen.aspx?Appno=92232015&doc=GG&filetype=C

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 23:28:11 »

Quote from: Chloe;21681

The Chinese patent for Ya Sheng (胜亚股份有限公司/Can Technology) buckling spring was granted in 1993. The other patent numbers on the keyboard do not seem to be valid. I compiled a tif of the original patent drawings for those who can't view it here:
http://123.127.249.110:88/Translationtoen.aspx?Appno=92232015&doc=GG&filetype=C

Chloe, do you eat, drink and breathe keyboards? I thought people in the UK were crazy about football (soccer).

People here know so much about keyboards. A few weeks ago, I did not even know there were different ALPS and Cherry switches. It all started when I came across an article on the DAS, and all hell broke loose. All I can talk about at work is keyboard. They think I'm crazy to spend so much money on keyboards, and still wanting more, and to put a video on YouTube to share with my friends (those who are interested in mechanical keyboards, of course)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWNKXpjUtJE

Chloe · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 00:05:35 »

:lol: I can't stand football. It's terrible actually, keyboards have taken over...

wellington1869 · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 02:15:37 »

Quote

They think I'm crazy to spend so much money on keyboards

to be honest I'm a bit secretive about it. it just takes too much effort to explain to people that i'm not an obsessive freak. (hell, maybe i am, lol). But i think probably not because this keyboard-search experience for me in the last few months was, I think, really just a prolonged "comparison shopping" session.

IN other words, i'm probably obsessed with shopping more than keyboards per se, lol. And hell, that sounds like a more "normal" obsession.

Chloe · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 03:22:28 »

It's funny you should mention shopping... I love shopping.

A recent trip to Topshop put things back into perspective. I was so, "OMG! Look at these! I can't believe I'm spending so much on keyboards when I could have this!" So there is some hope for me. :lol:

wellington1869 · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 07:47:53 »

Quote from: Chloe;21701

It's funny you should mention shopping... I love shopping.

A recent trip to Topshop put things back into perspective. I was so, "OMG! Look at these! I can't believe I'm spending so much on keyboards when I could have this!" So there is some hope for me. :lol:

I just found out recently that "topshop" is a clothing store

See all those bbc reruns on pbs are having a positive effect on us americans.

Yea thats why I sold all the boards I wasnt going to eventually use. Free up my cash for important things. Like impulse buying on ebay

(Or to buy a nice soldering iron to attack my tp2 with

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 09:49:42 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21698

to be honest I'm a bit secretive about it. it just takes too much effort to explain to people that i'm not an obsessive freak. (hell, maybe i am, lol).

I think I'll be doing the same. Our first baby was born recently, and some friends have been giving us some money, clothes, etc. I don't want them to think that I'm wasting money on keyboards. Like you said, some might need a lot of explanation. And some might not even ever understand why. They think a keyboard is a keyboard, and any keyboard will do. The same applies to pen. Some don't understand my I spent quite a bit on a fountain pen when I could get dozens of ball pen for under $5 at WalMart.

I try to quote David Allen (Getting Things Done), who said that we should not underestimate the power of gadgets. Our favourite pen, keyboard, or PDA can be very good sources of inspiration. For example, I am a part-time student at U of Waterloo. Before my buckling spring keyboard, whenever I needed ideas for an essay, I would use the MacBook built-in keyboard because it was the one I like best over my Microsoft keyboard. When I don't need to write essays, it's hooked up to a monitor, mouse and keyboard.

@Chloe.
I, on the other hand, prefer football to keyboard...for now. But, if Liverpool does not go on to win the league, keyboard it is

bhtooefr · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 12:08:16 »

It actually is insane to buy a Das, IMO.

Cherry G80-3000 or Scorpius M10 (if the retailer has a good return policy, or you're buying a known-good used one.) if you want a 104-key with blues.

BigWopHH · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 15:36:15 »

I second bhtooefr's vote for the Cherry G80-3000. I've been switching between it and an M10 all week, and am really liking the G80.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 16:42:03 »

I'll note that I've not actually used a G80-3000, but it is a board with Cherry blues (depending on model,) and therefore an alternative to the Das III.

And the Das II is just an OEM version of the G80-3000, IIRC.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 16:54:34 »

Quote

The same applies to pen. Some don't understand my I spent quite a bit on a fountain pen when I could get dozens of ball pen for under $5 at WalMart.

so true, I went thru a similar fountain pen phase (and similarly it too tapered down once I had decided on one or two nice models that were right for me, but it took about 6 months of trying them out (and reselling them afterwards, lol).

I didnt go totally nuts or anything (there's no real upper ceiling on prices with fountain pens, lol). It began because my grandfather left me a shaeffer snorkel. And let me tell you, even if you're not into pens (and I wasnt at the time), the snorkel will make a believer out of you.

Its so mechanically complicated that its like something out of a disney movie (think the inventer guy in chitti chitti bang bang). A real fun gadget - and wrote like a dream, like nothing out there writes today. (I like stiff nibs and with the one on this, you could kill someone pretty easily, lol).

So it all began with me trying to fix it (refill mechanism worked but wasnt taking in much ink). And I discovered the *vast underworld* that is the pen-lovers world out there. Its a much bigger world than keyboard lovers but its just as secretive and hidden, in alleyways and side streets and niche corners of the web where these folk congregate, lol. And they were amazingly helpful to me in trying to understand how the damned pen worked (very complicated! and really really neat if youre a gear head) and fix it up.

I still have it though I dont use it anymore. After some comparison shopping (thanks, ebay!) I settled on a low/mid-level parker vendome/rialto which works well for me. Not that I write with a pen that much, but its "nice to have". Not pricey at all but love the way it writes.

But there too, once I figured out what I like and dont like, I moved on to the next comparison shopping event (which was keyboards, lol). I did the same with my desk, chair, monitor stand and setup, etc - the advantage is not only inspiration as you say, but true efficiency I think.

It really is efficient to have a set up that you like and that is second nature to you, when you sit down to work. (The danger is that the search for that perfection can sometimes be an excuse to procrastinate of course!). But you know, its better than taking up a drug habit or something, lol.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 16:58:48 »

I lucked out in that:

My first fountain pens were Pilot Varsities, just to see if I'd like a fountain pen
My first "real" fountain pen was bought from Staples, which has a nice return policy.

(Got a Waterman Phileas, medium nib... uh, yeah, that was unusable.)
My second "real" fountain pen was a Lamy Al-Star medium nib (aluminum-bodied Lamy Safari,) and I liked it.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 17:02:37 »

Quote

My first fountain pens were Pilot Varsities, just to see if I'd like a fountain pen

those pilot varsities were ubelievable by the way. I got one as a gift in college and I couldnt believe how butter-smooth they were, I had never experienced anything like it. But at the time I didnt pursue it and buy anything on my own. It took the shaeffer to get me going. but I actually remember those varsities, they left an impression on me!

Quote

Waterman Phileas, medium nib

lol, yup, i had one from staples too

I didnt like it much either, though it looked nice in the case

Quote

Al-Star medium nib (aluminum-bodied Lamy Safari,)

I had a plastic lamy from an old art store I visited once; I think I also had the 'gun-metal' lamy. They werent bad but in the end I kept veering towards parkers (who had, in my experience, the stiffest/smoothest nibs in general). I found shaeffer nibs to be inconsistent by comparison. Lamy was pretty high quality.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 17:06:08 »

and you know I can rationalize these gadgetries pretty easily, because all these things are ultimately related to my job (which is, basically, writing and writing a LOT). So its not like I"m out there buying speedboats or something completely unrelated to my career! SO its really not that wasteful by comparison, its stuff I use every single day, every day of the year. So it makes sense to me that I want stuff that works really well. (The same way a carpenter will want reliable quality tools.)

bhtooefr · « **Reply #23 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 17:12:30 »

I probably would've been fine with an extra-fine nib on the Phileas, but I didn't really care for how it was weighted, either. (Unfortunately, the medium nib was like a normal extra-broad.)

I wouldn't mind a fine nib on my Al-Star, though. (Of course, as my Al-Star has some issue where it won't quite properly retain the cap... I might eventually (way down the line) replace it with a fine nibbed Al-Star or Safari.)

Of course, now I just need to get some money, then find a place that actually has Noodler's Squeteague ink in stock. That ink flowed like butter through my Lamy, had great color, shading, lasted a long time, didn't feather badly, dried quickly enough, and wasn't too broad.

Other inks I've tried... the Lamy blue ink, huge meh on that one... Diamine Umber, didn't care for the color (too green,) the shading, it seemed to not last very long, yet it didn't flow all that well, either. And, I've got Private Reserve Blue Suede... this one shades VERY nicely, but it's too bright, I get lots of it out the pen, it doesn't write too smoothly (better than Umber, though,) and it feathers badly.

In my case, I can't justify the pens, but I can justify the keyboards. Oh, wait, I don't have a job, so I can't justify those.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #24 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 17:40:45 »

i havent tried different inks yet, everyone raves about noodlers I'll have to try some at some point. I didnt think ink would make a difference but apparently it does.

yea I dont have a job either

bhtooefr · « **Reply #25 on:** Sat, 14 February 2009, 17:48:53 »

Well, my problem is, my unemployment runs out in a month. So, I've gotta at least get a burger flipping job by then (can't find anything in IT.)

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 10:41:45 »

I have not bought too many fountain pens. I live in a small town in Ontario, but the stores carrying decent selections of fountain pens close to me are in Toronto. I did not have a car, so could not get there easily. I really wanted a Pelican with flexible nib. When I did get a car, I also bought a house soon after, and a couple of months later found out that my wife was pregnant. Needless to say, that I had to think twice before putting a significant amount on money into the purchase of a pen

.

I, too, have a Phileas, but unlike you, I do like it

It's not the greatest pen around, but with good paper, it's nicer to use than a ball point pen. My dream would be to get my hands on a Parker 51.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 12:24:56 »

The Phileas was smooth as butter, but it was almost TOO smooth, and laid down way too much ink.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 12:46:25 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;21784

The Phileas was smooth as butter, but it was almost TOO smooth, and laid down way too much ink.

mine was smooth too, i just didnt like the weighting. (and the overly thick line). maybe the higher end pens I had used by then had spoiled me

I've especially come to appreciate weighting. Thats one of the reasons I chose the vendome/rialto in the end, for my hand it was absolutely perfectly weighted. (ie in terms of both balance and overall weight).

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 12:51:53 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;21784

The Phileas was smooth as butter, but it was almost TOO smooth, and laid down way too much ink.

True, it does lay down a lot of ink.

Getting back to buckling spring keyboard, one of my uncles was at my place yesterday while I fix his computer (that's what I get to do a lot for relatives :-) and he was typing on my Customizer 104. He said that it was very nice to type on, the keys have the perfect resistance. I guess there's a reason why the Model M is considered to be the best keyboard ever to be made.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #30 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 12:57:52 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21746

...But there too, once I figured out what I like and dont like, I moved on to the next comparison shopping event (which was keyboards, lol). I did the same with my desk, chair, monitor stand and setup, etc - the advantage is not only inspiration as you say, but true efficiency I think.

It really is efficient to have a set up that you like and that is second nature to you, when you sit down to work. (The danger is that the search for that perfection can sometimes be an excuse to procrastinate of course!). But you know, its better than taking up a drug habit or something, lol.

You're right. A good setup can make a huge difference.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #31 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 15:18:18 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21786

mine was smooth too, i just didnt like the weighting. (and the overly thick line). maybe the higher end pens I had used by then had spoiled me I've especially come to appreciate weighting. Thats one of the reasons I chose the vendome/rialto in the end, for my hand it was absolutely perfectly weighted. (ie in terms of both balance and overall weight).

My Phileas wasn't so hot for weighting for me, either.

But, my Al-Star is just about perfect with the cap posted. (Not posted, it feels too light, with it posted, it falls into my hand perfectly and has just enough weight.) Which probably means a Safari won't be good for me, even though it's the same pen, just made of plastic.

Also, the Safari and Al-Star have a triangular grip, which I find helpful.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #32 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 15:22:56 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;21787

True, it does lay down a lot of ink.

Getting back to buckling spring keyboard, one of my uncles was at my place yesterday while I fix his computer (that's what I get to do a lot for relatives :-) and he was typing on my Customizer 104. He said that it was very nice to type on, the keys have the perfect resistance. I guess there's a reason why the Model M is considered to be the best keyboard ever to be made.

maybe you'll make a believer out of him

cchan · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 16:54:01 »

Shoot, I totally missed all the discussion of fountain pens. I received an old cartridge-fill Parker from my grandpa a couple years ago ("If you can look up what cartridges it needs, you can have it."), but then that got stolen. Now I'm on a blue one from ebay seller comeon1788 (unfortunately, lost the link to the auction, but it's a very generic Chinese pen) which I fill with Waterman purple ink. I also use this which was shipped from Poland. I fill that with the cartridges it came with.

Neither pen is anywhere near as good as that Parker was... I think I need something better. Can anyone recommend anything for about $10 shipped? New/used/whatever works, taking international cartridges a plus.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 17:31:42 »

Quote from: Tales;21796

Can anyone recommend anything for about $10 shipped? New/used/whatever works, taking international cartridges a plus.

you wont get anything too great for $10, but for about $25 or $30 shipped (new in box, can find them for that price on ebay usually) I'd readily recommend a parker rialto. Its relatively weighty, nicely balanced, a little on the small side but I like that, smallish nib too so it feels like an everyday pen, but with a great smooth and stiff nib.

If you want thinner nibs I'm not the person to ask, I almost exclusively use stiff nibs.

The phileas is pretty cheap too, if I recall I bought it for about $20 or so.

You definitely dont need to spend a lot to get pretty high quality fountain pens.

cchan · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 17:39:55 »

This will be incentive to get rid of my phalanx of PDAs and extra keyboards...

bhtooefr · « **Reply #36 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:17:36 »

Of course, the Lamy Safari/Al-Star is stupid durable. I've dropped mine nib-down once or twice, with no damage.

It does not take international cartridges, though. But, $5 for a converter from some place like Pear Tree Pen, who can also send you some ink samples (IIRC, $5 for a pack of 4?) if you want to try some different stuff.

Edit: You can get a pack of fountain pens for $10 shipped, though - Pilot Varsities. (Actually, I think it's like $3 for 3 at OfficeMax.) And they can actually be refilled, with a lot of work.

Also, I think you might be able to get some of the Hero pens in the $15 range, plus shipping.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #37 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:26:41 »

lol, I "hacked" my pilot varsity and tried to refill it. It "sorta" worked.

I had the most fun with the snorkel though. What a pen. Its more like a whole science unto itself.

I also discovered esterbrooks and bought a couple and fixed them up. That was fun too (and relatively easy), with its "classic" bladder system. (the esterbrook has quite a history, very popular in mid-century. I had as much fun learning about its history and cultural references to it that I never had caught before. For instance, colonel potter on mash always used an esterbrook. Also in bugs bunny cartoons, when bugs uses a fountain pen to "stream" a jet of ink at daffy or someone, its modelled on the esterbrook with the side-lever that squishes the bladder inside and you can shoot ink at people that way

Who knew. It was kinda fun fixing it up. I like tinkering I guess. Dont even get me started on what I did to fix up my grandpa's old swiss wristwatch

Or his old camera from like 1930 lol.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #38 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:30:04 »

PROTIP: If you really want to ruin someone's day, fill a Snorkel with Noodler's Black, and then squirt it at them.

(Noodler's Black will ruin their clothing.)

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #39 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:32:16 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21791

maybe you'll make a believer out of him

Maybe, but I don't think he's into keyboard enough to want to spend more than $10 on one. Better yet, I don't think he'll use one other than the one that came with his PC

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #40 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:36:06 »

Quote from: Tales;21796

Shoot, I totally missed all the discussion of fountain pens. I received an old cartridge-fill Parker from my grandpa a couple years ago ("If you can look up what cartridges it needs, you can have it."), but then that got stolen.

I'm sorry. You must have been mad when it was stolen. Not only was it a great pen, but it had a sentimental value attached to it as well, and that is priceless.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 15 February 2009, 18:42:27 »

Someone who is in neither keyboards nor fountain pen, and who happened to be on this thread by accident will surely say, "These guys are nuts!"

One of the many reasons why I like fountain pens and good quality paper is because someone is more likely to cherish a nice handwritten note than an e-mail. Although, an e-mail does not mean the person cares less, a handwritten letter seems to say more, something like, "You are important enough to me to worth my favourite pen, ink, best paper, and of course my time."

My now wife still has some of the notes I wrote to her 12 years ago in a box. She will not give them up.

itlnstln · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 16 February 2009, 07:21:44 »

I must admit, keyboards are not my primary obsession; disc golf is. Honestly, I can't stand being couped up in the house when the weather is nice (and it is much more often than not here in South Texas). I really only partake of my keyboard obsession at work. I hardly ever use my PC at home anymore. I usually only use it to check the weather to go play disc golf.

lam47 · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 16 February 2009, 09:59:21 »

What is disc golf?

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 16 February 2009, 10:36:25 »

Quote from: lam47;21866

What is disc golf?

I was going to ask the same question. What is disc golf?

bhtooefr · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 16 February 2009, 15:42:22 »

Golfing with frisbees instead of balls and clubs.

itlnstln · « **Reply #46 on:** Tue, 17 February 2009, 07:16:22 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_golf

If the weather were better in the UK, I would suggest you give it a shot. It's a lot of fun. You can find the courses in the UK at PDGA.com.

MANISH7 · « **Reply #47 on:** Wed, 18 February 2009, 07:48:51 »

Quote from: zwmalone;21679

The patents expired. Anybody can make keyboards with buckling springs now. IIRC they ran out ~11 years ago...

lol talk about being behind on the times. thanks - didn't know that.

News:

Author Topic: Buckling Spring Keyboards (Read 10991 times)