Zbrojovka Brno - Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.3 & 262.10

[niubio]

Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.3 (1988)



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Manufactured in communist Czechoslovakia. They made nice boards for eastern block (still I think Czech women are way prettier). Spherical double molded keycaps + reed switches (HAL effect). They were used in Poland with MERA terminals (as we can see here). Didn't find any info about this particular model tho... My unit looks unused, connector at the back has been cut off.

Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.10 (?)



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Similar to 262.3 model - spherical double shots / reed switches with russian symbols. Metal case. This monster is heavy as... (~3kg). The plug has been cut off... Anyone knows if this board is XT compatible? It has some fancy LEDs - "Hold screen", "Data Talk", etc. I think it's some kind of a prototype - production year hasn't been punched onto the rear metal plate, and the serial no. is... 000001! Anyway, I'm wondering how much this beast is worth

Any comments? Were there any similar boards posted here in the past?

EDIT: Fixed links pointing to my server, as old hosting domain does not belong to me...

[CPTBadAss]

Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.3 (1988)

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I wish I knew more to help you but I really like the layout and color scheme on that board.

[berserkfan]

Really classy.

I keep telling our Eastern European members, don't bother to spend tons of zlotys and rubles importing foreign keyboards. There's good stuff at home.

Early on in my hobbies I made a firm decision never to buy Eastern Block stuff, and haven't regretted. There are too many weird and interesting Soviet Bloc things that would just bankrupt us. (I use the word hobbies, because 20 years ago I was into watches, and at that time Soviet bloc watches were starting to make it into the rest of the world.)

[niubio]

@CPTBadAss: Yeah, the color scheme is just awesome! Black caps are the most common nowadays in dome boards, but those look & feel completely different (matte finish + double mold). It's interesting that in the '80 they didn't have any problem with so many different color conjunctions: red/white, blue/white, gray/black, etc. I'm pretty sure in Poland we had our own line that assembled double shots in Mera/Poznan (I have Elwro 800 Junior HC and keyboard for quite unique KFAP MK45 computer, they are both double molds + reed switch). Well, in socialism things were made to last forever

@berserkfan: haha, you don't know what you're missing Funny thing is there are many different twisted boards that were produced only in small numbers (10-100). Factories went into private hands after the fall of the wall and documentation is lost forever... Most of those uniqe devices were scrapped for gold/palladium/etc. - all connectors, plugs were usually covered with thick layer of PM.

[CPTBadAss]

@CPTBadAss: Yeah, the color scheme is just awesome! Black caps are the most common nowadays in dome boards, but those look & feel completely different (matte finish + double mold). It's interesting that in the '80 they didn't have any problem with so many different color conjunctions: red/white, blue/white, gray/black, etc. I'm pretty sure in Poland we had our own line that assembled double shots in Mera/Poznan (I have Elwro 800 Junior HC and keyboard for quite unique KFAP MK45 computer, they are both double molds + reed switch).

Can you share some pictures of your other keyboards? It'd be really cool to see them! And maybe that computer?

[niubio]

I don't have them in my apartment, 'll have to visit my warehouse next week Of course I'm going to share some pics here!

[CPTBadAss]

Sweet! And hopefully in the mean time, someone more knowledgeable than me will be able to help you. Welcome to GeekHack by the way .

[niubio]

Thanks! I wonder why it took me so long to come here

[Ansich]

They look marvelous! Doesn't the chech language have letters like č,š,ž and similar? I don't see any on the first board.

[niubio]

I think they used "programmers" mode in Czechoslovakia during the '80 (Alt + c -> "č", and so on). Other than that, both boards came from the same batch, which was exported to other socialist countries, so they used more universal set, i guess...

[Ansich]

I see; the most logical thing to do I guess. Anyway, again, great looking keyboards!

[Noko]

Really classy.

I keep telling our Eastern European members, don't bother to spend tons of zlotys and rubles importing foreign keyboards. There's good stuff at home.

Early on in my hobbies I made a firm decision never to buy Eastern Block stuff, and haven't regretted. There are too many weird and interesting Soviet Bloc things that would just bankrupt us. (I use the word hobbies, because 20 years ago I was into watches, and at that time Soviet bloc watches were starting to make it into the rest of the world.)

Oh man, I have now spent a couple of hours looking at Soviet bloc watches

[niubio]

Oh man, I have now spent a couple of hours looking at Soviet bloc watches

Yesterday, thanks to berserkerfan, I ended up reading about soviet "ekranoplans" (jumping from one link to another).

[CPTBadAss]

Ugh I just looked through these pictures again and I'm really jealous. I tried hall effect for the first time during my Christmas break and it was awesome. I really want a Hall Effect board now.

I just realized that dorkvader and haata might be able to help you out niubio. You can try contacting them or maybe they'll see this post .

[dorkvader]

I just realized that dorkvader and haata might be able to help you out niubio. You can try contacting them or maybe they'll see this post .

See this post? I approved this post! I was the first to see it.

Sadly, I don't know much about the keyboards in question. A lot of eastern european keyboards copied western switch designs, sometimes they were good (like those tesla / gertronik kbs) and sometimes not. I could maybe tell you more, if I had some pictures of the stem (and especially the PCB) but HaaTa is the real expert (on switches and also converting keyboards).

[CPTBadAss]

See this post? I approved this post! I was the first to see it.

No one likes a show off dorkvader

Sadly, I don't know much about the keyboards in question. A lot of eastern european keyboards copied western switch designs, sometimes they were good (like those tesla / gertronik kbs) and sometimes not. I could maybe tell you more, if I had some pictures of the stem (and especially the PCB) but HaaTa is the real expert (on switches and also converting keyboards).

Aww I was hoping you could help out

[IvanIvanovich]

Indeed, most Soviet bloc computer equipment was reverse engineered to varying degrees of compatibility with the source. Much of time they only copied a general concept and went their total own way. Some incompatibility was likely intentional as well to help prevent use of black market western software and etc. Much of it is not compatible at all with equivalent west system, or even other Soviet systems... much like how you couldn't mix Atari and IBM. Even in Soviet area there was a lack of standards in the 80's. When all the factories went from state ran to private or just closed pretty much all possibility of replacement parts and documentation disappeared. Once western systems became more readily available people began getting rid of these antiquated mostly Z80 based systems for shiny new Pentium II stuff so they could be compatible with the rest of the world, especially once people were able to get online. Finding complete working specimens of Soviet bloc systems is getting much harder every day. It's really a shame, some of them are very interesting.
I like to look, but have stopped myself from collecting. I already have problems with Soviet camera equipment LOL.

[HaaTa]

Oh nice, I was trying to get some of those Hall Effect clones.

Any chance for a bunch of PCB pictures and of the hall effect sensor Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.3?
Only thing I can see is that the controller (probably a controller), is made by Tesla.

Some internal pictures of the Bezkont. Klavesnice 262.10 would be awesome as well

[niubio]

Ok guys, today I'm going to add some internal shots of both models. I've never opened 262.10 and it's sooooo heavy! Got a little excited

[niubio]

Uhhh... It was quite a challenge to open 262.10... Damn i hate those flat screws! Anyway, 262.3 has a hand-written Czech inscription inside and some sort of a connector (?) in a lower left corner o the PCB. Logic came indeed from Tesla:



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And here we've got THE 262.10 (still wonder/wish it's some kind of a prototype). I was quite surprised to see that some of PCB logic came from CEMI (it was Polish national institution that produced electronics), but then it wasn't that unusual for Eastern Bloc countries to exchange parts. There's a speaker and one large Tesla chip + another one without any description (ROM?).



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EDIT: Fixed links pointing to my server, as old hosting domain does not belong to me...

[HaaTa]

Neat, the CEMI PCB is looks like most of the Honeywell PCBs, while the Tesla one is more original. Both seem to be matrix scanning (unlikely NKRO, unless you find some diodes).

Likely a lot of work, but...if you have a soldering iron, myself and dorkvader would really like to see the hall effect sensor/pcbs. For this design, you have to desolder all the switches to remove just one switch.

[dorkvader]

Neat, the CEMI PCB is looks like most of the Honeywell PCBs, while the Tesla one is more original. Both seem to be matrix scanning (unlikely NKRO, unless you find some diodes).

Likely a lot of work, but...if you have a soldering iron, myself and dorkvader would really like to see the hall effect sensor/pcbs. For this design, you have to desolder all the switches to remove just one switch.

if it's at all like the other tesla keyboards,you only have to desolder one. Same with all the honeywell microswitch hall effects I have seen.

Still, I would very much like to see the switches. Even if you don't want to desolder, just removing a keycap would be very interesting.

Anyway, the 262.3 is a lot like the other tesla PCB we've seen, very complex, lines going everywhere. I wonder if the matrix was optimized for certain 3-key combinations. The 262.10 is also the most similar to other honeywell / microswitch PCBs I have, but it looks like it uses vias, which are less common for honeywell.

One other thing of interest on the 262.10: It looks like it has the "option" for having more switches on the PCB. I am especially looking at the arrowkey-area. It's just a grid of possible key positions. This was very common to see on honeywell keyboards. I wonder if the plate offers holes for them as well. It's not really useful (as you'd need to find more switches somewhere to put them) but it's a cool design choice, nonetheless.

That metal case is more complex than I was imagining from seeing the outside. That was somewhat expensive to manufacture!

To get an idea of our point of reference, here are some pictures of that tesla keyboard that's made it over to the US for photographing:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/sets/72157637931250784/

Looking at the PCB again, I suspect it might have 4KRO (and yours as well). If you notice the inner two pins (both output 5V when the switch is pressed) are wired in a horizontal way on one side of the PCB and a vertical way on the other. I haven't sat down to think about it fully, but it may provide for higher rollover than that.

[niubio]

Ok, it's a very busy day for me but I've managed to take some photos of the switch. It was quite a challenge to open up the slider, it's one of those one-way, "assemble-only" designs. After a long examination I concluded that there's no non-destructive way to take a peek inside. So I've took out one of the Shift keys - 2U size, with two sliders beneath, and opened up the "dummy" (the one that didn't have a reed register). Well, the hard plastic case chipped on top, as expected... anyway, I took requested photos and glued it back together with methyl ethyl ketone. Good-as-new. On the first photo you can see that the register is absent in one of the holes. Notice how thick are the cap walls!



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@dorkvader: I've also noticed the "extra" places for more switches. I'm not that experienced with vintage boards, but I think I saw something like that before in a KME board (ALPS switches). Nice catch! Also, I've visited the webpage you provided to compare Zbrojovka machines with Tesla. It seems that 262 design utilizes different switch... But...

But it really does not matter right now for me. What matters is that it really blew my mind to see all those vintage boards!!! Especially D2770 - it's just sick... Talk about complicated! Sorry guys, this is where I draw a line This is WAY out of my league. I'm just a simple folk from Eastern Europe, fascinated with old equipment, that's all. I'm pretty good @ visual refurbishment & basic electric diagnostics but this "XT conversion" was rather a casual question To be honest, I suck when it comes to handle soldering iron. Don't have much brains nor patience to walk that road.

I'm thinking what'll be my next move with the boards... Classfields maybe? On the other side, what I'm definitely sure of right now is that I have to bring Elwro Junior home computer and the other reed switch keyboard (MK45) to my home and take some pictures... You guys 'll have some fun. MK45 is a blast, and I'm sooooo sure it's uniqe as hell (only about ~50 units of this computer were produced). And, what makes me a little proud - it was made in Poland

Anyway, so many thanks for your curiosity about those boards! If only people in my country were half as interested in vintage hardware as you... The World would me a better place.

EDIT: Fixed links pointing to my server, as old hosting domain does not belong to me...

[HaaTa]

Well, if you feel the need to sell the keyboards...I'm sure I could help you with that
I was trying to get some keyboards like this a couple months ago, but my lack of a Russian proxy hindered me...

[niubio]

I'm still thinking about my options... It's not that easy to find stuff like this here. I'm 100% sure is that I won't sell MK45 board tho. You say you have proxies all 'round the world, eh?

[Tarzan]

Those are some beautiful keyboards!  If you do find other units in decent shape, I'd be interested in buying one as well.  I don't have any reed switch or Hall Effect keyboards and I've heard they're pretty neat - plus those gorgeous keys!  I have family in Slovakia so shipping wouldn't be too bad.   

[niubio]

They really are beauties, aren't they? Well, as I said before, I'm still a little confused, if I should sell them or not. It depends how much is this stuff worth. I'm not that eager to get rid of them - maybe I'm unable to make them work again, but still I like to poke those thick caps a little, from time to time I start to sound like a perv.

Good news is that I've just cabe back from my warehouse and brought MK45 + Elwro Junior with me! MK45 requires solid cleanup, but Junior was already "done" a couple months ago - I think I'll start another thread about it today, maybe tomorrow.

[niubio]

Hey guys. Sorry for the late reply and for digging up an old thread. I was hoping to start a new topic about my stuff but got some health probems that couldn't wait any longer. Now I'm back and 100% ready for some action!

So I'll try my best to make some photos of Elwro tommorow and upload them for everyone to see. HAL switches on this home computer are a little bit different than those on Zbrojovka keyboards. MK45 utilizes the same switch, but I have to give it a good cleanup before posting.

But...! surprise, surprise! I've bought 3 more wicked boards on our tiny polish market. Quiet unique Compaq DP with strange plug (PS/2 compatible as I've read somwhere), Amstrad PC board (also with kinda strange plug), and... something REALLY special. You have believe me here, this thing will BLOW YOUR FREAKIN' HEAD. Wasn't expecting anything HARDCORE... But package size got me a little puzzled. And then I opened it...

Unfortunately you'll have to wait patiently for some photos

EDIT: For those that are interested, I've made two videos of ZBROJOVKA boards with my '00-era digital camera. You can watch them here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qef2QGLkHMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lX-p8HEqxQ

EDIT 2: I've found an old computer from ZB on the Internet - CONSUL 2717 - that utilises a similar keyboard. It can be seen here:

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1130

Another interesting photo can be found here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aSZxeywsnnjlZTa-NGEmDg

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wait a second — clicky Micro Switch clones? Wow.

I can just make out in the one video that there's some sort of plastic doohickey that slides into the top of the switch to make it click. (It's not in focus.)

What effect does that have on the feel of the switch?

(Something else you can add to the wiki ;-)

[niubio]

Wait a second — clicky Micro Switch clones? Wow.
I can just make out in the one video that there's some sort of plastic doohickey that slides into the top of the switch to make it click. (It's not in focus.)

Not sure if I'm getting this right... Those switches are not "clicky" - at leat in "blue MX" sense. It's a really simple linear construction, but I guess I can say it's kinda loud. As can be seen on this photo, there's a small, shallow hole on the bottom of the switch in which the spring "hides" after the key has been pressed. Flat surface of the slider hits the bottom, thus making very odd sound.

When the slider returns, a little plastic "thing" (which can be also seen on this pic, right above the magnet) hits the top of the case - just in one spot, the one that got chipped in my switch (that's easy to spot on my photo). And that's the only "contact spot" that prevents the slider from jettisoning out of the switch. Too bad that it also prevents normal, two-way dissasembly...

My vintage digital camera has a nasty habit of amplifying certain frequencies in audio. I've tried post-processing - conversion from 11khz/8bit -> 44khz/16bit, normalize, level down, etc. but it sounds kinda strange anyway I guess you are right here, this sound can be described as "clicky".

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, clicky means that it clicks, though in most cases, clicky switches are also tactile and that is what people are likely to assume a clicky switch offers.

It may just be that the switches have a very high pitch clack sound that's up in the frequency range of a typical click, or indeed that the sound is being distorted by the camera.

If the keyboard does sound like the YouTube videos, then they sound really nice, whatever they are!

[niubio]

Now I fully understand. Well, the sound is a little "bumped", but to be fair - this board sounds exactly like this (made a comparsion with a real thing a minute ago). And it reminds me of '80 for no apparent reason

Today I'm getting my hands on this UNITRA-POLAM wiki page, 'll try my best.