Requesting Opinions on Apple Extended Keyboards Switch Types

[fohat.digs]

I like the Apple Extended Keyboard and AEK II pretty well. I have, or have had, both models with both switches of each.

You Apple lovers out there:

On the original AEK, do you have a preference between orange and salmon (aka pink) Alps? What is it, and why? Or do you think that they are really pretty much the same?

Similarly, on the AEK2, do you have a preference or distinction between dampened cream and dampened white, and why?

I am testing these 2 side-by-side now, and the white feels crisper and smoother, but that may simply be age and wear.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[fohat.digs]

OK, this has had 22 views already, will anybody give up their opinions on the subject?

Thanks!

[CPTBadAss]

I've tried the Matias Quiet, Salmon Alps, and Dampened Cream Alps switches. I haven't tried the orange Alps. And I haven't heard of a dampened white Alps.

I really liked the Matias quiet switches and Salmon Alps. The Matias switches are supposedly replacements of the Cream Alps. But I think that I like the Matias ones better than the Cream Alps in the AEK II I own. The Matias Quiets feel smoother and less scratchy versus the Cream Alps. Could be that my AEK II is still filthy though.

I'd like to try the orange Alps though and an AEK.

[rowdy]

Sorry, I jut added to the thread views, but having never used AEKII I cannot provide any feedback.

The one Apple keyboard I have from that era turned out to be the non-mechanical version.

[fohat.digs]

re-bump, and I give you a chuckle for your trouble of looking at this.

Somebody must have opinions on this, you have opinions on everything else.

[mr_a500]

I've got 2 orange ALPS AEK and 2 dampened cream AEK II. (also an orange ALPS M0116)

I've never tried salmon ALPS, so I can't compare. I definitely prefer the orange ALPS over the cream in the AEK II. The only white ALPS I have is an SGI granite - and I prefer that over the cream ALPS.

It's possible that my AEK II keyboards are old and used, but the dampened cream ALPS are the worst ALPS switches I have ever used. (including all vintage ALPS variations)

[sth]

i don't like the dampened cream alps i've tried, but that might be a general tactile ALPS thing. matias switches feel nice but i have never actually put them on a board and I only got to peck at a quiet pro or whatever at a meetup once.

[illy865]

I use an AEK from time to time and I really like the feel of it even when going back to my Cherry MX switch keyboard.  Mine has Alps Orange switches and I've tried to refurbish the switches back to the 60g actuation force they originally had.  From wear and use when I first started using the keyboard again, that force was more in the 40s.

I like the undampened switches more, probably because it just feels more crisp to me.

[fohat.digs]

I've tried to refurbish the switches back to the 60g actuation force they originally had.  From wear and use when I first started using the keyboard again, that force was more in the 40s.

I would like the lighter touch, maybe I should check mine with a stack of nickels and see where it is.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

fohat.digs: I didn't reply before as I don't have the experience to answer you, but I'll tell you all I know and you can draw your own conclusions. (I'm replying here in a last-ditch attempt to salvage the Apple //c topic.)

In Sandy's experience, damped white is fairly common, but from my perspective (the West) it's very rare. The photos he sent me suggest that cream damped is pine (1993 or earlier; has slits) and white damped is bamboo (1993 or later; no slits, and fresh moulds with the new Alps logo), but that's solely a comparison of two switches. I cannot comment on the difference in feel between the two, but going by MouseFan's view, and if this distinction is correct (that the white slider simply indicates a later switch) you'd want cream damped. However, I have no other information on white damped, and they could have been alternative products sold at the same time, as with orange, black and salmon. It's something I might take up again with Sandy at a later date.

Silencium's force graph for orange looks very favourable. He didn't cover salmon, and I've never used orange, so I can't give you a comparison. The salmon Alps board I tried was smooth but quite stiff; I no longer have this keyboard. Alps switch feel can vary significantly by keyboard, so I cannot guarantee that my salmon Alps, or Silencium's orange Alps switch, are typical — either could be worn and completely out of tolerance. All I know is that his graph for black Alps exactly matches the feel of the bamboo black Alps switches in my NIB Dell AT102W.

[fohat.digs]

Thanks for that. The creams on the AEK2 do have the slit and the whites do not, although the embossed "ALPS" look exactly the same. And both have serial numbers ending in M0312 which might indicate earlier manufacture rather than later.

Of these 2 keyboards, the whites are better in smoothness and feel, but that could be due to age, dirt, and/or wear. The keycaps on both look similar and show little wear, but they are the good old-fashioned PBT that wears particularly well.

I am beginning to get the idea that there is very little difference between switch colors by model.

[Grimey]

I have my hands on two of these boards via ebay, one board with the white variety and one board with the cream.  These keyboards were used and my perception is totally based on a sample set of practically nothing, but here goes. 

The white dampened switches where lighter than the cream counterparts by a noticeable difference.  Honestly that is the most notable difference between the two sets of switches after using each for awhile.  I think it is a fantastic switch overall, which even lead me to order a bag of the matias modern day clones for possible future use. 

Well that wasn't very exciting I guess, but that I guess, but that is my story.

[fohat.digs]

white dampened switches where lighter than the cream counterparts

Thanks for your opinion, I know that you are familiar with Alps.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

This is one of the photos I got from Sandy, which I have annotated with the key details:



The switches are, from left to right: salmon, cream damped, white damped. (The dampers are present in photos taken from other angles.)

In addition to the lack of slits on the white switch, the Alps logo is quite clearly the updated logotype in a heavier face, indicating a newer production batch.

The 1994 Alps category lists an "ivory" "quiet" tactile switch with part number SKCMBB, which one presumes is what we call cream damped. There is no white equivalent listed. This suggests that the white quiet switch was introduced at the end of the AEK's production run (1990–1994), after the catalogue was published, and also goes some way towards suggesting its comparative scarcity.

What's not clear is whether they're the same switch, and the slider colour was changed in 1994, or whether Alps introduced a second switch model with reduced force.

Interestingly, the 1994 catalogue lists regular white Alps as SKCMAQ. My spec sheet for the equivalent switch refers to it as SKCMCQ. The spec sheet clearly shows SKCLAR (yellow linear) as having slits, but SKCMCQ as not having slits. Normal Alps switches have an 'A' in position 5, e.g. SKCLAR, SKCMAF (cream tactile), SKCMAG (blue), etc. 'F' appears to indicate an LED preinstalled in a linear switch. Latching is 'J', and "other" (double action, space bar) is 'B'.

I don't know what the change from 'A' to 'C' signified here. Alps specifications and part numbers are like hen's teeth. Sandy noted, "Last two letters, for Additional mechanism and variety; Classification by additional mechanism such as momentary, with LED, etc., and variety."

I'll ask Sandy if his catalogue shows SKCMAQ as having slits or not.

[esoomenona]

Just came to extend the views. No opinions for you from me. Also, I will reload this occasionally to increase the views.

[fohat.digs]

What's not clear is whether they're the same switch, and the slider colour was changed in 1994, or whether Alps introduced a second switch model with reduced force.

My white does not have slits, and the legend is slightly heavier than the cream legend, but not nearly as "fat" as the one shown here. I had to get out reading glasses, magnifying glass, and flashlight to sort it out. The switches are similar, I doubt that there was much intended difference.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

White and blue Alps feel quite different, but they're specified identically ; )

[fohat.digs]

White and blue Alps feel quite different, but they're specified identically ; )

What! No way!

White feels considerably heavier than blue.

[terrpn]

man that is a tough one......

aek's are definitely my favorite boards, lets see-

dampened creams (aek II m3501 with the little s in the box on the label) have springy tactile with a click on the way back up

salmons which i am typing on now (aekII- m3501, no little s in the box on the label) seem to be a little softer tactile wise and have the slightest click on the way back up

oranges on my aek m0115 and m0116 are probably my favorite? salmons i feel and they are sooooo close with oranges are maybe just a tad mushier if that is the right word than orange's. the oranges are tactile wise soft, yet springy without any noticeable click up or down. the m0116 is small enough to pack and take to the office as well

i have never tried dampened whites, but understand they are one in the same with the creams?

if i am not mistaken there are clicky whites that were made in mexico? gotta get that one.........

these are really great boards, especially for their age and i find the switches pretty much consistent throughout.

i can't justify spending the money for matias when i can snag a "complicated alps" apple board so much cheaper. its nothing to take them apart, clean, retrobrite if necessary and reassemble- if i can do it anybody can . i mean 30 bux for a heavy duty salmon alps board is a no brainer-- at least in my book, however i have appreciate and am fond of all my mx boards.

mx's are new, shiny, you can bling out, the popular choice and what some of the more techy guys are coming up with in GH itself really is over the top. unless the GB goes through on the new alps caps we are held hostage to what is out there as far as keycaps, but you can grab a focus cheap enough with alps ds.

someone here told me a couple years ago to grab one, you would not regret it and they were right

personally i don't think you will go wrong with any of the aek's switch wise........they do not get the respect they should

maybe the original aek's are a tad heavier than the aek II's   they are both built like tanks

so to answer your question it would be oranges with salmons breathing down their neck for me as i find the difference to close

[terrpn]

here are 3...........

1 is cream

.......and 2 are either orange or 1 salmon and 1 orange?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Vintage-Keyboards-M0116-M0115-M3501-fair-condition-tested-all-working-keys-/331115428702?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d18047b5e

55.00 plus 16.83 shipping/conus from maryland

[vivalarevolución]

I've tried the Matias Quiet, Salmon Alps, and Dampened Cream Alps switches. I haven't tried the orange Alps. And I haven't heard of a dampened white Alps.

I really liked the Matias quiet switches and Salmon Alps. The Matias switches are supposedly replacements of the Cream Alps. But I think that I like the Matias ones better than the Cream Alps in the AEK II I own. The Matias Quiets feel smoother and less scratchy versus the Cream Alps. Could be that my AEK II is still filthy though.

I'd like to try the orange Alps though and an AEK.

I think you may have tried Orange Alps and did not know it.  I brought an AEK to the April 2013 Chicago Meetup, and I brought an Orange Alps Apple IIGS board to Keycon.  I think tipo33 also had some Orange Alps among his half-dozen AEK's.

For Orange Alps, just imagine a slightly lighter Salmon Alps.  Orange Alps struck me as the lightest of Alps.

[tooki]

OK, this has had 22 views already, will anybody give up their opinions on the subject?

Given that you have to read the thread to see what the question is, you realize that it wasn't just 22 people deliberately withholding information from you?

[CPTBadAss]

I've tried the Matias Quiet, Salmon Alps, and Dampened Cream Alps switches. I haven't tried the orange Alps. And I haven't heard of a dampened white Alps.

I really liked the Matias quiet switches and Salmon Alps. The Matias switches are supposedly replacements of the Cream Alps. But I think that I like the Matias ones better than the Cream Alps in the AEK II I own. The Matias Quiets feel smoother and less scratchy versus the Cream Alps. Could be that my AEK II is still filthy though.

I'd like to try the orange Alps though and an AEK.

I think you may have tried Orange Alps and did not know it.  I brought an AEK to the April 2013 Chicago Meetup, and I brought an Orange Alps Apple IIGS board to Keycon.  I think tipo33 also had some Orange Alps among his half-dozen AEK's.

For Orange Alps, just imagine a slightly lighter Salmon Alps.  Orange Alps struck me as the lightest of Alps.

Crap. I think you're right. Do you still have those boards so I can try them out again?

[fohat.digs]

Given that you have to read the thread to see what the question is, you realize that it wasn't just 22 people deliberately withholding information from you?

Quite right. Count well over 200 now, changed the title.

 

[fohat.digs]

1 is cream

and 2 are either orange or 1 salmon and 1 orange?

Well, that is part of my dilemma, apparently you can't tell by date or serial number.

Ultimately, I want an AEK and an AEK2 for my collection, and I am trying to decide which variant is preferable in each case.

I have two AEK2s now, side-by-side, and the dampened whites feel better and smoother than the dampened creams, but it might well be age/wear/dirt/storage environment/etc. Both, by the way, are model M3501 with serial numbers ending in M0312.

[fohat.digs]

For Orange Alps, just imagine a slightly lighter Salmon Alps.  Orange Alps struck me as the lightest of Alps.

At the moment, I do not have any working AEK.

I have a bag of orange Alps that I harvested, and am awaiting an AEK from ebay in the mail. It may be shabby, so my hopes are not high.

The last AEK I had, with pink/salmon switches, seemed a little stiff, but I never compared it side-by-side with any others.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, that is part of my dilemma, apparently you can't tell by date or serial number.

Do you have any references for that? As in, people who have actually cited switch/date combinations? (Not all keyboards actually have any date information anywhere.)

[fohat.digs]

Do you have any references for that? As in, people who have actually cited switch/date combinations? (Not all keyboards actually have any date information anywhere.)

I was speaking loose and sloppy, actually. These do not have dates.

My point was that I have not heard anything definitive about how to identify what is inside by the part or serial number.

[terrpn]

to my knowledge from the outside, label you cannot tell the difference in a m0115 (AEK) as to whether they are salmon or orange?

of course in regards to a 3501 (AEK II) if you can see the label you can decipher as to cream, whites or salmon.

whoever said it is probably correct..........salmons are slightly and i mean slighter stiffer than oranges, but i have big digits so not so good measuring system there

[fohat.digs]

of course in regards to a 3501 (AEK II) if you can see the label you can decipher as to cream, whites or salmon.

How do you do it? My whites and creams both have serial numbers ending in M0312.

And have AEK2s been verified with salmon/pink?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

As terrpn mentioned, the 'S' in a square on the label allegedly indicates an AEK II with damped switches.

As far as know, AEK II with salmon is confirmed. The confirmed switches are salmon, cream damped, white damped, and "Mitsumi Alps clones", which are not Alps clones (presently nobody seems to know what we should do about the spectrum of Mitsumi mechanical switches in terms of naming etc).

Sandy has covered AEK/AEK II at length in e-mails to me; one day I need to dig out all the e-mails and re-read them and assimilate the information.

[thegagne]

AEK Salmon.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What do you mean?

[fohat.digs]

Assuming that he is recommending the AEK with salmon/pink over orange.

[terrpn]

AEK II m3501 with salmon alps

note the label- no s in lower right hand corner

[terrpn]

AEK II m3501 with cream alps

note the small s in the lower right hand corner of label and also on the left hand label

[terrpn]

i still do not know how to tell the difference between a m0115 with salmon or oranges?

all the m0115's i have ever seen are oranges and not salmon (or pinks), but they do exist

if somebody figures it out please let me know?

i wonder does anyone here have a m0115 with salmons that would put up a shot of the label so maybe we could compare?

[terrpn]

i'll post here and great finds.........

cheap m0116 with orange alps since we are on topic

10 bux and 15 ship

http://www.ebay.com/itm/apple-model-m0116-Vintage-Keyboard-/251439867052?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3a8afbe4ac

[fohat.digs]

all the m0115's i have ever seen are oranges and not salmon (or pinks), but they do exist

The last M0115 I had was pink (aka salmon, the farmed variety, not the wild ones, which are quite red) but I sold it on ebay a few weeks ago. Wait, I do still have the label:

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Doh. Apparently when I had my M0116, I forgot to take a photo of the label!

[Wildcard]

I prefer the salmon alps. It's been awhile since I've typed on it, but I recall it had a good click and feel.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I presume you mean "clack"? Salmon Alps don't click.

[terrpn]

all the m0115's i have ever seen are oranges and not salmon (or pinks), but they do exist

The last M0115 I had was pink (aka salmon, the farmed variety, not the wild ones, which are quite red) but I sold it on ebay a few weeks ago. Wait, I do still have the label:

HA!!

you aint right..........

[terrpn]

I presume you mean "clack"? Salmon Alps don't click.

well if you are so delicate (and I am not)........there is a slight click, but daniel's right as i hammer mine and they clack

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Tactile Alps switches are pretty loud!

[fohat.digs]

Tactile Alps switches are pretty loud!

Probably why they felt the need to dampen them on the next iteration.

[Findecanor]

As terrpn mentioned, the 'S' in a square on the label allegedly indicates an AEK II with damped switches.

I have seen them on M3501s made in the USA or Mexico.
I have yet to see a M3501 made in Ireland that has the symbol - all made there had dampened switches.

[terrpn]

As terrpn mentioned, the 'S' in a square on the label allegedly indicates an AEK II with damped switches.

I have seen them on M3501s made in the USA or Mexico.
I have yet to see a M3501 made in Ireland that has the symbol - all made there had dampened switches.

someone correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the ones (3501's) made in mexico have the same squiggly line symbol as the salmon boards on the left label and then have the small s in the box symbols in the lower right hand corner as do the creams.

these should be whites as well and not creams...........?

after all of that i really need to get a life

[Shikarikato]

Not sure if it really adds to the topic but here's an AEK II for $16: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Apple-M3501-Extended-Keyboard-II-/261385136909?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cdbc4ab0d

I know nothing about ALPS, and the seller only says, " HAS SIGNS OF USAGE ".

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Sandy's "new" AEK II page (from a year ago):

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/apple_aek-II%20m3501.html

Looking at the photos he sent me, and assuming that all have their original switches (Japanese enthusiasts loved to transplant switches in these) we have, in copyright date order:

• Mitsumi, M3501, Japan, ©1989
• Salmon, M3501, USA, ©1989
• Salmon, M3501, USA, ©1990
• Cream damped, M3501, ［S］, USA, ©1990
• Cream damped, M3501, ［S］, USA, ©1990
• White damped, M3501, ［S］, Mexico, ©1995

Interestingly, the final date for the AEK II is 14th March 1994, yet the white damped version is copyrighted from the year after. Unless Apple copyrighted something with a future date, production lasted longer than anyone has realised, but with cheaper production, and a change to bamboo switches.

I'm still not sure on the best approach to tracking switch usage — most people would say "Google Docs", but I just have an aversion to Google's way of thinking when it comes to accounts.

I certainly need to put all of Sandy's keyboards on the wiki at some stage.

Edit: SMF thinks [ S ] means strikeout ....... why don't forums have BBCode escapes?