A mockup of the ideal HHKB 3

[intelli78]

Mocked this up in GIMP. I'd love to see an HHKB 3 with arrow keys. And they can lose the USB hub while they're at it-- doesn't jive with the minimalist design. An inverted-T arrangement for the arrow keys would be even better, but that would require a lot more re-engineering, or a nasty compromise like a 1x right shift.

Thoughts?

[demik]

if you need arrows that bad just get a JP. backspace and spacebar are ridiculously easy to get used to

[intelli78]

if you need arrows that bad just get a JP. backspace and spacebar are ridiculously easy to get used to

Yeah, probably is the best option this side of fantasyland, just not a fan of the 1x shift (even swapped to left of up arrow) and the spacebar. Just doesn't do it for me.

[demik]

eh, well, im a left shift user 99% of the time so it doesn't bother me. but tbh, those arrows in your mock up are worse than the fn layer arrows. do you currently own a hhkb?

[intelli78]

eh, well, im a left shift user 99% of the time so it doesn't bother me. but tbh, those arrows in your mock up are worse than the fn layer arrows. do you currently own a hhkb?

Yea, I do. I've found it somewhat difficult to adapt to the Fn arrows, especially when also holding shift to select text, which I do a LOT. I'm sure that it'll get even easier with time, but I do have to say I miss dedicated arrows.

I also like the aesthetics of filling the empty spots with keys.

Don't get me wrong, HHKB is a great KB and is by no means ruined by current setup. Just toying with an idea : )

[demik]

would it be too much of a hassle finding a keypad and using the arrows on it as dedicated arrows? i use my G80-3700 with numlock off when im going to use my arrows a lot

[phatdood9]

I wish the HHKB had an extra row for the F-keys

I use those keys a lot for stepping through code and some miscellaneous vim mappings.

[SpAmRaY]

For people wanting to change the HHKB, just get a poker or GH60.

[neun_sechs_zwei]

No way; but not having one I don't know whether I would like the cross-layout arrow keys in the Fn layer. One way to find out I guess.

[yasuo]

Just swap FN keys to Mac/Win_l + P L ; ' with AHK or controller like hasu

[tuxsavvy]

The GIMP mockup is interesting however in some ways I would say that would not happen with HHKB. It may be labelled as "HHKB Pro arrows" but it most likely will not wear the "HHKB Pro" model name. For a very good reason why is that it would be conversely the opposite of what Dr. Wada proposed.
First, it does not comply with the inverted trapezoid layout that Dr. Wada inspired.
Second, Dr. Wada didn't have any inspirations for dedicated arrow keys on his drawings. Sure PFU has butchered with Dr. Wada's idea with HHKB Lite 2 and HHKB Pro JP series but I think if "HHKB Pro 3" were to appear like that, PFU would have no lineups of keyboards that they gained massive sales from. People liked the idea of HHKB because of the way the keys are arranged as such, not because of trivial issues such as missing dedicated arrow keys or the such. Dr. Wada's idea was minimalistic layout and that it is up to the owners sort of discretion to use it as they see fit rather than being accomodating by chucking extra keys here and there. I am sure HHKB Pro JP does not enjoy the same amount of popularity as HHKB Pro2 for instance.
Last but not least, the dedicated arrow key cluster layout seems a little hard to get used to. You can see when PFU had Lite2 they demote the use of dedicated arrow keys by making them 3/4 the size of the regular keys so that it seems less conspicuous and that it also retains the inverted T arrangement.

I seriously agree with what demik said in the first post, if one wants arrow keys for instance there is always HHKB Pro JP, besides HHKB Pro JP chucks a whole bunch of things that are missing from HHKB Pro 2. If PFU were to create HHKB Pro 3 and that would meet sort of half way between Pro 2 and Pro JP, imagine the crowd of fans would become three folds for HHKB Pro itself. In a likely scenario, PFU like virtually any other company would is to draw upon new ideas if there is enough demand for it and if it is worth the effort which would mean HHKB Pro 3 with that sort of layout is somewhat unlikely considering that not many Pro 2 owners would be fond of the layout (again think of how Pro 2 owners view Pro JP owners).

Right now at this current stage, the longing for bluetooth capable HHKB Pro has been a long time wanted feature. I am sure PFU would probably release HHKB Pro 3 (if ever) with bluetooth connectivity whilst retaining Pro 2 key layouts. If they were to experiment new layouts it would be a disaster. Mind you I do not necessarily long for bluetooth capability but in this day and age where small things often mean portable, there is a simple correlation there.

[sth]

Why would they change the layout between 2 and 3 if nothing changed between 1 and 2? if you like a more standard layout there is always the F660C as well as the JP as others have mentioned. plus i feel like that arrow cluster you have mocked up is very unaligned with the original HHKB concept (not just that there are arrows but the layout is even less intuitive than not having dedicated arrows, IMO).

It's all just a matter of familiarity and preference... for what I do there is next to no reason to have dedicated arrows since i can hit the fn with my pinky and use the same hand to navigate.

[jwaz]

The Fn layer on the HHKB is perfectly designed and implemented, as well as extremely functional and ergonomic. The way your hand rests when using Fn is ideal and it's just as fast as dedicated atrows. This footprint and function layer combine to make the most ideal 60% out there. I have to agree with tux and others that the hhkb jp is a JIS abomination in comparison.

All I could really ask for HHKB 3 would be a heavy aluminum case and thick PBT. I could always compromise and get the HHKB HG Japan

[dorkvader]

The Fn layer on the HHKB is perfectly designed and implemented, as well as extremely functional and ergonomic. The way your hand rests when using Fn is ideal and it's just as fast as dedicated atrows. This footprint and function layer combine to make the most ideal 60% out there. I have to agree with tux and others that the hhkb jp is a JIS abomination in comparison.

All I could really ask for HHKB 3 would be a heavy aluminum case and thick PBT. I could always compromise and get the HHKB HG Japan

kishsaver is HHKB layout compatible. Heavy metal case, thick PBT. It also includes "real man's" keyswitches.

[tbc]

^ dat truth.

does it hurt the cup rubber?

[CeeSA]

first of all the Version 3 needs a programable controller.

[Matt3o]

Right now at this current stage, the longing for bluetooth capable HHKB Pro has been a long time wanted feature. I am sure PFU would probably release HHKB Pro 3 (if ever) with bluetooth connectivity whilst retaining Pro 2 key layouts. If they were to experiment new layouts it would be a disaster. Mind you I do not necessarily long for bluetooth capability but in this day and age where small things often mean portable, there is a simple correlation there.

I've been put in contact with a PFU representative who told me that they have NO plans for bluetooth keyboard.

RE the mockup: the arrows that way simply don't work.

[Oobly]

first of all the Version 3 needs a programable controller.

^^This.. And that's all.. No other changes necessary.

Except perhaps to change the port to Micro USB for durability and put another one on the side of the case so the back can be up against a flat edge (like a laptop edge).

Oh, and more keycap options.

[osi]

Using the arrows through the function layer is easy enough. The pro 2 is already ideal!

[vivalarevolución]

The Fn layer on the HHKB is perfectly designed and implemented, as well as extremely functional and ergonomic. The way your hand rests when using Fn is ideal and it's just as fast as dedicated atrows. This footprint and function layer combine to make the most ideal 60% out there. I have to agree with tux and others that the hhkb jp is a JIS abomination in comparison.

All I could really ask for HHKB 3 would be a heavy aluminum case and thick PBT. I could always compromise and get the HHKB HG Japan

kishsaver is HHKB layout compatible. Heavy metal case, thick PBT. It also includes "real man's" keyswitches.

Yea, with the kishsaver, I have plans to turn that ISO key next to the left shift into the FN key, or perhaps the caps lock key in the FN key.

And the genius of the HHKB is that those navigation FN layer keys are accessible with only one hand.  I can lean back and navigate away only using one hand.  Most of these other 60% boards seem to throw the navigation keys all over the place, or put the FN key on the bottom row, which is not friendly towards one-handed navigation.

Caps lock also is a great place for an FN key, and some 60% boards put it there via DIP switches, but they screw up the location of the navigation keys.  When you are holding down the Caps lock, WASD is not a comfortable way to navigate.  Just try it, and you will see what I mean.

[Monidas]

first of all the Version 3 needs a programable controller.

Late to the party, but even if I must humbly admit that I don't own one, I'd rather have a Japanese style spacebar and 2 function keys at both sides of it, like in the MiniLa. I mean, the thumbs are just getting bored there doing nothing but press space, give them some love...

Alternatively, through a programmable controller, the space key could be made to act as a modifier. If you press it and let go, a space would register. If some other key is pressed along it, it could behave as a function key... Though I prefer the dedicated keys.

TL;DR: I like thumb-activated function keys.

[jacobolus]

Ideal for what purpose? Your design basically keeps intact all of the problems with "standard" keyboard layouts, without providing any particular benefit.

Here’s a somewhat more radical example which (a) stays within roughly the same sized rectangle, and (b) keeps the normal key stagger intact [it's terrible, but hey, it's familiar]:


Ignore the specific key legends; it would probably be better to move 'shift' to a thumb key and use the current 'shift' keys for some extra Fn layers, for example, and figure out some better system for multiple-modifier shortcuts than the way people handle them on current keyboards, which is to move and contort one hand into a little claw to press all the modifiers, which sucks.

Also, obviously that’s not *too* carefully thought out (I spent about 5m fiddling), but it's more flexible and more comfortable to use (assuming programmable firmware) than anything else I’ve seen which fits within the same kind of rectangular shape.

“Ideal” requires a keyboard to (1) move away from a single flat slab, (2) have keys laid out completely differently to fit human hand anatomy, (3) add some substantial separation between hands, or dramatic tenting, or both, (4) integrate some kind of pointer device as near as possible to the home row position, etc. etc. So anything in a rectangular slab is right out.

Then once you have an ideal physical layout (i.e. which allows full use of all the fingers, but no keys which are too far away to hit without excessive hand twisting/movement), figuring the ideal firmware (not to mention software) takes a lot of further work. Navigating around text fields and applications, editing text, typing words and numbers and symbols and code, performing common operations in various applications, typing text, searching within documents, etc. can be done so so much better than current keyboards and operating systems and text editors manage it.

Anyway, no, what you have here is nowhere near “ideal”. :-)

[Note: personally I'd ditch the little diamond-shaped 'arrow' groups I stuck in this design, and add an extra thumb key on each hand; I was just playing around and there was some extra space in teh corners.]

[RESPRiT]

Well I mean, "ideal" doesn't have to be pragmatic, it can just be an aesthetic preference too

[aref]

Mocked this up in GIMP. I'd love to see an HHKB 3 with arrow keys. And they can lose the USB hub while they're at it-- doesn't jive with the minimalist design. An inverted-T arrangement for the arrow keys would be even better, but that would require a lot more re-engineering, or a nasty compromise like a 1x right shift.

Thoughts?

(Attachment Link)

If only HHKB offered such a configuration...; and if they made it with 55-gram Topre switches, I'd call it the Happy Hacking Nirvana Keyboard.

[mljs54]

I like no dedicated arrows on the HHKB and function where it is (function is absolutely perfect location IMO, one of my favorite things about the HHKB), I would just reprogram some of the fn cluster as follows if I could:

Home / End: I / K
Pg Up / Pg Dn: O / L
Arrows: , . / ;

[mashby]

I'm new to the HHKB, but I can see already where I wish I could customize the keyboard. That's what drew me in with the Poker, but alas no one has come up with a community Topre PCB, much less the ability to purchase Topre switches to build up custom boards.

So I guess my fantasy is more about a Topre GH60 where I can get a custom case, heavier switches, etc. 

[SpAmRaY]

I'm new to the HHKB, but I can see already where I wish I could customize the keyboard. That's what drew me in with the Poker, but alas no one has come up with a community Topre PCB, much less the ability to purchase Topre switches to build up custom boards.

So I guess my fantasy is more about a Topre GH60 where I can get a custom case, heavier switches, etc. 

Mashby you can add 55g domes to make the switches heavier, you can also lube and do a silencing mod and there is a custom controller made by hasu.

[Neo.X]

55g dome; backlit; and most important, a heavier case, alu one maybe. 

Only one change for the layout, allow us change Ctrl to Caplock, so that I can map Caplock to Backspace. 

[daerid]

I'm new to the HHKB, but I can see already where I wish I could customize the keyboard. That's what drew me in with the Poker, but alas no one has come up with a community Topre PCB, much less the ability to purchase Topre switches to build up custom boards.

So I guess my fantasy is more about a Topre GH60 where I can get a custom case, heavier switches, etc. 

Unfortunately, Topre "switches" don't really exist independent of the PCB/Case/Plate due to the way they're designed, so a DIY Topre board is going to be really difficult.

[tbc]

55g dome; backlit; and most important, a heavier case, alu one maybe. 

Only one change for the layout, allow us change Ctrl to Caplock, so that I can map Caplock to Backspace. 

everything word there is pure gold

[RESPRiT]

55g dome; backlit; and most important, a heavier case, alu one maybe. 

Only one change for the layout, allow us change Ctrl to Caplock, so that I can map Caplock to Backspace. 

everything word there is pure gold

A better case would be awesome, the HHKB case is probably it's weakest trait if you ask me. As for the Ctrl to Capslock, why not just make the whole thing programmable?

[Xowie]

====

[jacobolus]

After some fiddling, here, this is better (still keeping with the fits-in-a-small-rectangle and uses-Sholes-horizontal-stagger theme):

[Coreda]

What all these 60% keyboards need is to be fully programmable. That way the user could chose the position of the arrow and Fn keys most comfortable to them.

After using the Poker II for a few weeks I'd still like to be able to make the Right Shift the Pn key, and use PL;" as the arrow keys natively.