Author Topic: Actuation force versus 'tactility'  (Read 7851 times)

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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Actuation force versus 'tactility'
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:14:50 »
when you swap out the spring in a clear for a brown, the ergo clear becomes arguable the most tactile switch out there.

I'll bet it is, but I can only attest to what I have owned and ergo clears is not one of them. Stock clears are just a heavier brown as far as tactile feel of the switch is concerned (to me.)
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Actuation force versus 'tactility'
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 06:11:46 »
... fingers are not machines. ...

Yes, they are. Bone structures with tendon and ligament connections, muscle motors and built in sensors, very complex machines, but still machines.

... What is not shown is the re-action of the key to that force that is applied...

That is precisely what a force diagram IS showing. The upward reaction force on a pressure sensor during a keypress. The sensitivity of the sensor is lower than that of your fingers, though, so it doesn't tell the whole story.

As I said, a sensitive multidirectional sensor should show a spike in the graph when BS springs hit the case side. With blues it depends if the white part hits the slider (in which case it will be felt more strongly) or if it hits the bottom of the case (where the force would be absorbed more) due to the mass difference between a slider + keycap (which will change with keycap mass) and a full keyboard. If it is the former, thin, light keycaps will allow the force to felt more strongly, thick, heavy keycaps will dampen it a lot (which could explain why I don't really feel it since I like and use heavy caps).


So, shall we conclude that there are four components to tactile feedback from key switches (leaving out Alps since I don't know enough about their internal structure):
1. Change in pressure due to the action of (A) a bump and leaf or (B) a rubber dome collapsing or (C) a spring buckling (as can be seen on force diagrams)
2. Sharp, low strength force due to (A) small plastic part of the slider stopping suddenly or (B) buckling spring hitting the side of the switch casing.
3. Sharp change in pressure due to bottoming out the switch.
4. Sharp change in pressure due to the switch slider hitting the top of its travel (although this is usually subtlely felt).

Linear switches have only number 3 and 4. MX Browns, Clears and Topres have 1, 3 and 4. MX "clicky" switches and Buckling Springs have all 4.

In the case of the MX switches, the spring strength and bump size affects the relative strength of the leaf and bump interaction (compared to the spring pressure at that point), so heavier springs or smaller bumps result in a decrease of type 1 tactility. Softer springs or larger bumps result in an increase.

Different people seem to be more sensitive to different types of tactility and thus regard different switches as "more" or "less" tactile. ie: It's personal. I happen to be more sensitive to type 1, 3 and 4 and less to type 2.

There is a 5th factor affecting perceived tactility. Aural feedback. Switches which "click" reinforce the type 2 tactile sensation by confirming what one sense is experiencing with feedback from another sense. Some have reported that adding a software click sound to a linear switch keyboard creates a sense of "tactility" or enhances the existing tactility of a keyboard with soft tactile switches and thus reduces typing errors and accidental actuations.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 06:13:33 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Actuation force versus 'tactility'
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 13:28:50 »
I skipped over everything and went to your points. Again, you are going by force charts/graphs which only show part of the picture. Forget about the charts. They can only show the pressure needed to depress. The machine can not feel the feedback the key is sending to your fingertips and brain.

add:

5. The vibration of the key when struck by the slider/spring or going over a very pronounced "bump". That is not shown in the graphs because it's impossible for the machine to detect. That's what tactile feedback is. That's the most pronounced and noticeable haptic feedback a switch can provide (out of the switches that I listed.) Vibration.

Example: Which gives you more tactile feedback, mx clears/browns or your mobile phone that violently vibrates when you apply less pressure? The vibrating phone.

The rest of your points just show relatively mild changes in pressure needed to depress. Which is not very noticeable to me. Now is it possible to have sharp enough changes in  force to notice it and perceive it as a vibration. Sure, but not with the standard switches I've tried.

« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 13:44:32 by smknjoe »
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Actuation force versus 'tactility'
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 14:29:08 »
Oobly, I just read through your post and you pretty much agreed with me. All of my experience is with stock switches and keycaps. Clears were on a Cherry POS board, blues are on a Leoplod TKL from a couple of years ago, browns were on a Ducky from a couple of years ago (it's funny how popular they are now, Ducky)...

I'm not into modding keyboards and I'd bet the majority of newcomers to this site are looking for something they can go buy rather than build. So, for the sake of keeping variables to a minimum I'm going to keep the conversation strictly stock. That's why I have also intentionally left sound out of the equation. I agree that it can enhance the perceived tactile/haptic feedback, but that's for another thread. We are talking about the sense of touch only in this thread.
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Offline LouisHjelmslev

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Re: Actuation force versus 'tactility'
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 14:35:49 »
Ha, fantastic breakdown smknjoe!