[REED series] Elwro 800 Junior

[niubio]

Ok, as promised (but with 24h delay ) - my true love, Elwro 800 Junior ZX81 clone! Made in Poland!





[Pic 3] [Pic 4] [Pic 5]

Switches made in Unitra Polam (link), computer made in Elwro Wroclaw (link). Those national companies no longer exist, unfortunately, in Poland... Caps are spherical double-shots. This dino is WORKING! I've dedicated CRT monitor of Unitra brand ("Unimor") for it, and even serial printer - Mera D100. Still hunting for external disk drive (they are expensive as fffff...., people are crazy in Poland about those computers) and cassette player.

It has build-in extended Basic, CP/M support and it's possible to daisy-chain up to 20 of them in Spectrum network. They were used during the '80 in Poland in various schools as didactic machines. I have no words to describe the "feeling" when you actually type on those reeds... Maybe I'll upload a video to YT, but without CRT or printer, they're burried deep in my warehouse.

One interesting thing about this HC - due to budget constrains, case of "Elwirka" toy electronic piano made by Elwro was used during assembly process. It was even shipped with metal reed/stand for notes (missing in my unit). More info can be found here

EDIT: Fixed links pointing to my server, as old hosting domain does not belong to me...

[BlueBär]

Looks quite cool! Do you have some more shots of the switches? Are these clicky, tactile or linear?

[CPTBadAss]

Those caps are really weird. They're little boxes haha.

[Tarzan]

It looks like those caps are cylindrical double-shots, just oriented differently than we're used to seeing.

That's a great find, it's in beautiful condition!  How do the switches feel?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, let me get this straight. The ZX81 is infamous for its atrocious keyboard, but in Poland they put magnetic reed switches in the clone?!

[niubio]

Do you have some more shots of the switches? Are these clicky, tactile or linear?

I'm not sure if I can even make "more shots", becose... switch construction is really simple! They're linear, a little lighter than MX brown, without any click whatsoever. But when the slide hits the bottom on some of them there's a very characteristic "metallic" sound. I suppose the surface of the reed switch makes physical contact with the magnet there. Don't worry, it cannot broke, as there's phys barrier of the plastic case - the magnet cannot fall too low to break the reed contact

That's a great find, it's in beautiful condition!  How do the switches feel?

It was a little beat down when I purchased it and was missing about ~15 keytops. I visited computer museum in Gdansk and they sold me missing caps... Unfortunatelly, they didn't have "left arrow", so I've used "left triangle bracket" instead, and it does a good job I guess. Switches feel... different. I cannot compare it to any mechanical or rubber switch I've used in my life, well... maybe except Zbrojovka Brno keyboards from my other thread. But even when comparing Elwro with them... It's just different. Personally I don't enjoy it that much. reeds are fine but Unitra switches lack "stiffness", keys tend to bend around a little. Maybe I've got used to german precision

OK, let me get this straight. The ZX81 is infamous for its atrocious keyboard, but in Poland they put magnetic reed switches in the clone?!

That's right folks. Remember, things were made to last forever in Eastern Bloc, right? Using membrane keyboard or anything like that was out of the question during socialist times, when there were some strict health/usability/etc. norms. I even have an old book with ~60 pages description what kind of fonts/colors should be used on computer hardware & accessories for maximum readability, ergonomy, and so on.

Anyway, I've made a crappy video of my Junior - it's available here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkp0M9deRNc

[Shayde]

The original ZX81 had the BASIC keywords on each key as a single stroke.  This keyboard doesn't have them so I presume they modified it so the keywords were entered long-hand?  If that's so, I'm wondering if it can really be considered a "clone" if they've modified the software that much.

[BlueBär]

I'm not sure if I can even make "more shots", becose... switch construction is really simple! They're linear, a little lighter than MX brown, without any click whatsoever. But when the slide hits the bottom on some of them there's a very characteristic "metallic" sound. I suppose the surface of the reed switch makes physical contact with the magnet there. Don't worry, it cannot broke, as there's phys barrier of the plastic case - the magnet cannot fall too low to break the reed contact

Aah your video made it clear to me. Very nice board!

That's right folks. Remember, things were made to last forever in Eastern Bloc, right? Using membrane keyboard or anything like that was out of the question during socialist times, when there were some strict health/usability/etc. norms. I even have an old book with ~60 pages description what kind of fonts/colors should be used on computer hardware & accessories for maximum readability, ergonomy, and so on.

Can you tell me the title of that book? Would be very interesting to read, maybe I can find it on ebay.

[niubio]

Can you tell me the title of that book? Would be very interesting to read, maybe I can find it on ebay.

No prob, it's in my other place tho, I'll get it the next time I pay a visit!

I can't check it right now (no monitor), but as far as I remember you can use all "basic shortcuts" on Junior, only the keywords are not printed on the caps, so it's sort of a ZX clone with heavily upgraded software and different case (and board of course! )

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, I've created a stub page:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Unitra_Polam_magnetic_reed

Feel free to expand.

[niubio]

Can you tell me the title of that book? Would be very interesting to read, maybe I can find it on ebay.

I have two books that deal with hardware ergonomy & things like that. Yesterday I found only one of them - in polish it's "Antropotechnika - Przystosowanie konstrukcji maszyn i urządzeń do człowieka". But - surprise, surprise! - that's a '60 translation from english. The original is: "Human Engineering" by Ernest J. McCormick, 1957 McGraw - Hill Book Company, Inc.

OK, I've created a stub page:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Unitra_Polam_magnetic_reed
Feel free to expand.

Not sure if I'm up to this with my broken english skills Daniel...

[BlueBär]

I have two books that deal with hardware ergonomy & things like that. Yesterday I found only one of them - in polish it's "Antropotechnika - Przystosowanie konstrukcji maszyn i urządzeń do człowieka". But - surprise, surprise! - that's a '60 translation from english. The original is: "Human Engineering" by Ernest J. McCormick, 1957 McGraw - Hill Book Company, Inc.

I see )
Thank you!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, I've created a stub page:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Unitra_Polam_magnetic_reed
Feel free to expand.

Not sure if I'm up to this with my broken english skills Daniel...

As an Englishman, I find it sad just how many foreigners—in particular those from mainland Europe—have better written English than most of the UK's population. It might help you to have the browser's spelling checker set to English (I know in Firefox I can change dictionary via context menu) to catch a few odd misspellings, but otherwise, I don't see a problem. There will always be mistakes to correct — I only get annoyed when someone who can't spell to save their life doesn't have a spelling checker enabled, and just types loads of rubbish.

I don't expect perfection even if people think I do : )

(Edit: botched the quote : PP)

[niubio]

As an Englishman, I find it sad just how many foreigners—in particular those from mainland Europe—have better written English than most of the UK's population. It might help you to have the browser's spelling checker set to English (I know in Firefox I can change dictionary via context menu) to catch a few odd misspellings, but otherwise, I don't see a problem. There will always be mistakes to correct — I only get annoyed when someone who can't spell to save their life doesn't have a spelling checker enabled, and just types loads of rubbish.

I don't expect perfection even if people think I do : )

Ok then, I'll try my best and expand deskthority page. Now how exactly did I get to this point? - modyfing wikis? Crazy... Right now I'm in the middle of cleaning up the mess I've created - moving all posted images to my own domain (after the old one expires, it'll leave nasty blanks in the threads, if anyone has any interest with those boards in the future, she would miss all graphic content!). After that and shooting some more videos tommorow, I think I'm ready to excercise my english writing "skills"

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I thought we were all crazy here?

[niubio]

I thought we were all crazy here?

Yeah, forgot about that...

I've edited the first wiki page in my life! It would be nice to add a photo of the switch, but I've no idea how to do it, what resolution should I use, should it be uploaded or linked to external server, and so.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Short answer: there's an "Upload image" link on the left of any page on the wiki. Upload it at its original size; MediaWiki generates all other sizes by itself automatically on demand. Some basic instructions for using images on pages are given on the image upload page, but you can also use the syntax on existing pages to see how images are used.

Long answer: if you subscribe to my way of working, there's my image upload guide: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Help:Uploading_images

[niubio]

Long answer: if you subscribe to my way of working, there's my image upload guide: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Help:Uploading_images

I have no idea how could I missed that! Great tutorial btw.

So I'm thinking, looking at all those switch pictures already posted - the best way to do it would be to desolder the switch from the board and make some good crisp photos on white background. Now, I don't own any reflex camera to make a good or even decent photo (well you can tell if you follow my threads!). I've 6 year old "monkey" Nikon with stuttering lens mechanism :/ And even worse - I'm not that eager to desolder anything from my working unit of Elwro if you know what I mean!

Anyway, I can crop/resize two pictures of the switch I've already posted here (link1, link2), would that be acceptable?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

This is my camera, as photographed by my diddy camera:



Considering what I've put it through, I'm amazed it still works. I've had it since October 2005.

Obviously it's not ideal to go for a photograph of a broken switch …

[niubio]

Ok, good point! Still, I don't get this one:

Obviously it's not ideal to go for a photograph of a broken switch …

...you mean my photos depict broken unitra switch? I'm... so confused. Should I up them or not?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The second photo shows a flat-topped slider, and a cruciform mount keycap with some sort of white paste inside.

If that switch isn't broken then, what, was the keycap glued on? How does the keycap attach to the slider?

I figured that the mount post had just snapped off, as so often happens.

[niubio]

Ok, now I understand. I didn't notice that because of intense lighting, the slider top is barely visible. It's present of course (it ain't broken), but that's a little confusing. Keycap has some silicon-paste inside, I guess it got a little loose during the operation, so maybe someone made quick'n drirty fix for it. "Normal" caps don't have any of this stuff inside, they simply fit perfectly on the top of the slider.

I guess I'll do this thing like it should've been done. Unfortunatelly, my Junior was send back to the warehouse a week ago, so that case is closed. But I still have MK45 board here, which utilizes the same type of switch - but in white case. First, I'm going to clean it, that's for sure. I'll put the switch AND the board to a flatbed scanner - I can make a good shot of a pcb-mounted base this way. Then I'll make a thread about it and post those pics to wiki Sounds reasonable?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I haven't photographed anything with a scanner for years. You must have a CCD scanner, right? CIS scanners have virtually zero depth of field—not even enough to cope with a magazine spine or uneven paper surface—while CCD scanners can scan solid objects! It never ceases to amaze me how technology is forever going backwards, undermining the hard work and efforts of those who came before.

The more photos, the better. I have a colleague with relatives in Poland, so next time he's over there I'll have him raid that warehouse ;-)

[niubio]

Yeah, about this CCD/CIS scanners thing... It's like with keyboards, right? Printers (still have my LaserJet 4!), laptops (fe TC1100)... Anyway, it IS a CCD scanner, but after playing a while with my really fragile MK45 board - i gave up, too risky. Scanning switch elements result in rather "flat" perspective, so I've used my camera instead

I've created a temporary photo album here:

http://www.yogile.com/ziubt1wr#41s

Are they any good for upload?

MK45 on it's way

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That's just ... o_O

Random coloured switches? How odd.

Yes, those photos are nice. I see how why the stem didn't show up on the previous photo. It's also clear now that they're PCB mount.

You might want a close-up of one switch opened up showing the reed, too. That dark-coloured object is the magnet I take it?

[BlueBär]

Random coloured switches? How odd.

Check my Pravetz, it has random coloured switches as well...

[dorkvader]

That's just ... o_O

Random coloured switches? How odd.

I think it's an eastern europe thing. HaaTa and I opened a KB from that part of the world that had random colour keyswitches as well. Maybe they save money on plastic that way.
IZOT kb: http://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/9929249163/in/set-72157635870076254

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ah, that's a hard one to put on the wiki — unbranded switches : (

I did forget to mention HaaTa's random, brightly-coloured Eastern European (Cyrillic) Cherry M9 clones.

They probably didn't consider Alps to be random enough.

[niubio]

Ok, I'll add everything to wiki tomorrow. A closeup of reed base too.

About this color mess... In 1983 they lifted Martial Law in Poland. I've read in old polish magazines ("Bajtek" and "Komputer") from '80 that there were some serious issues with obtaining pellets for plastic parts - recession, western embargos and other nasty circumstances. Hell, for a significant period of time we got problems with toilet paper! Recycling was blooming, I remember we were collecting wastepaper in schools en masse. There's an old saying you could read an article back then in the toilet - there were letters clearly visible on the paper

Those were really crazy, but happy times People were hoarding toilet paper after there was a toss ("rzucili") in a state-owned shop. You could see guys pushing baby carriages filled with toilet paper on the street everyday. Imagine that!

Anyway, if there were problems with raw materials like paper, what can be said about plastic... Many devices manufactured in '80 came in crazy color variations. They just melted everything they had in the warehouse and run the batch. That's also the reason for Elwro to use a case from electric toy piano "Elwirka" (link) for Junior - pellets issue We can teach you something about recycling, that's for sure!

[niubio]

Check my Pravetz, it has random coloured switches as well...

Very nice board BlueBär Those caps looks very similar to my MK45.

[BlueBär]

This thread gets more interesting with every post. That's really nice to know!
I guess those circumstances applied to Bulgaria as well then.

Very nice board BlueBär Those caps looks very similar to my MK45.

Indeed, they are a little bit different though, I just checked. Would have been funny if they used the same caps

[niubio]

Yeah, they are a bit different... Well, I guess they were domestic products of Bulgaria and Poland but used the same concept.

Yeah, this thread sparkled a lot of memories for me Ah, nostalgia... I was reading about Junior, jumped from one link to another, and ended up reading about soviet TV - "Rubin" - that was distributed widely in all Eastern-bloc countries. It was almost forced down customers throat There's an urban legend that it caught fire so often that it was delivered with fire extinguisher

I've also observed that many Eastern-bloc boards use Tesla logic. I guess they were major supplier of IC in socialist countries.

Also note that maybe they were making crappy plastic switches in crazy random color schemes. Maybe there were only about 50 MK45 computers ever made. Maybe they were incompatible with western standards. But at least they were trying to manufacture their own unique computers, in every freakin' country - under such harsh conditions! Sadly, that's all history right now. The only thing we have in Poland nowadays are Dell/LG assembly lines.