torn between MX brown and Topre

[NateS]

I'm sick of this Microsoft Comfort Curve 3000, it's mushy keys and crazy rattles. I'm a programmer and work on my own business ~12 hours/day. I live in Croatia, so it is difficult/impossible to try anything out locally, but I've been a good boy and did my homework on el innertubes. I want TKL and am pretty sure I would love either Cherry MX brown w/ o-rings OR Topre switches. I know all the details about both and you do too, so I'll explain my personal dilemma.

Topre seems perfect, especially since I code all day and night. The only Topre option for me (I needs ANSI arrow keys!) is the Realforce 87U (not sure: normal, silent, or EK). The downsides are not extreme at all, but they are: 1) Labels are quite dark. I don't look down a lot, but sometimes I do. 2) I'd like to customize the key colors, eg I'd like A-Z to be different. There seems to be very little selection, unless I want Japanese keys (I don't). 3) The spacebar (the most used key...) is not PBT.

There are many more options for the MX browns. I love the Filco Ninja labels, so sad they are ABS. I could get a Filco and then customize it with o-rings and whatever color PBT caps I like.

Right, so I'm stressing over things that aren't so important, but must be decided so I can place an order, and hopefully avoid buyer's remorse. Your thoughts are welcome!

[snoopy]

Topre!

(mx brown feel scratchy and cheap compared to topre)

[ricercar]

If you're like many of us you will eventually own both. Consider your current finances and decide which one is appropriate to buy first.

[Wildcard]

Just buy a good Topre board and save yourself the time and effort

[Oobly]

Topre!

(mx brown feel scratchy and cheap compared to topre)

Topre feel squishy compared to MX Browns and you can't hover around the actuation point like you can with Browns... YMMV.

MX switches can be modded easily and the keycap options are almost endless. You can even get sideprinted (Ninja) PBT sets:

http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/pbt-key-caps/104-105-pbt-white-side-printed/lid=19686618

http://www.ebay.com/itm/37PBT-Plus-thick-Single-color-Key-caps-for-MX-Cherry-Switches-Side-printed-/300997693802?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4614dc516a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/37key-PBT-Rainbow-Key-caps-side-printed-for-all-MX-Switch-keyboards-Razor-Ros-/181306135783?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item2a36b014e7

[quickcrx702]

Topre!

(mx brown feel scratchy and cheap compared to topre)

Non-55g Topre feel squishy compared to MX Browns...

 
Edited your post.  I'd say skip the 45g or variable.  Also, MX brown only feels scratchy when you type slowly and gently.  Otherwise they almost feel linear and the tactile bump is barely noticeable, but it still feels great.  What it is not, contrary to popular belief, is a silent MX blue.  Out of the choices, I'd say the 55g is a better board, but the MX brown would be much easier to customize.  Which is more important to you?

[tbc]

^ this.  except for the part where it feels great.  ever.

brown is a compromise switch; it's only useful if you like to type gently or if you enjoy the feeling of bottoming out.

on browns, you 'listen' for the bump (the bump is only there if you're looking for it). on blues, the bump 'alerts' you (you don't have to divert ANY attention to notice the bump - much more passive than browns)

[Danule]

both are very nice, personally for typing I prefer Topre and for gaming I use browns.

[NateS]

Thanks for the help (and emotional support). I've decided to pull the trigger on the 45g Topre! Now the waiting begins.

[C5Allroad]

If you go topre, wait out for the Cm nova touch. I think the type heaven is $150. So it's as much as a mx brown board. Some swear by them too.

[Macsmasher]

Good choice. If you like browns, the 55g would be too stiff. I have an 87U 55g, a silent variable and an HHKB Pro2 with 45g switches. The 55g is a bit too stiff for extended typing sessions.

[quickcrx702]

Thanks for the help (and emotional support). I've decided to pull the trigger on the 45g Topre! Now the waiting begins.

If it hasn't been shipped yet ask if you can change the order to a 55g.  The 45g feels like a very fancy rubber dome.  They are nice, but they have to grow on you for many people.  The 55g, on the other hand feels nothing like a rubber dome(even though it's also just very fancy rubber).  I'm pretty sure you will like it from day one.  If not and it's too late, I hope you enjoy the keyboard.  Keep us posted!

[Macsmasher]

Thanks for the help (and emotional support). I've decided to pull the trigger on the 45g Topre! Now the waiting begins.

If it hasn't been shipped yet ask if you can change the order to a 55g.  The 45g feels like a very fancy rubber dome.  They are nice, but they have to grow on you for many people.  The 55g, on the other hand feels nothing like a rubber dome(even though it's also just very fancy rubber).  I'm pretty sure you will like it from day one.  If not and it's too late, I hope you enjoy the keyboard.  Keep us posted!

I love my 55g 87U. And don't hate me for this, but I also really enjoy my variable silent. I find it very tactile, provided you use a softer typing style. If you're a heavy typist, you won't feel the tactility. I already said this in another post, but I think the reason...for me...is Colemak. A softer typing style fits Colemak because your fingers are resting on or right above the keys you need much of the time. And...I'm older that dirt.

I tend to code on my 55g, simply because there're a lot of shortcut key combinations and code navigation. However, If I am doing a lot of text typing, I'll switch to a lighter switch.

[gh_pp]

once you mod mx-brown with thick keycaps, i'd give the edge to mx-brown (my favorite mx switch)

topre is very nice but it really debounce slower. some people said 55g is better but i like light switch.

the thin pbt cap is pretty good but it being the only game in town is  its weakness ( want thick cap)

let's see how good the novatouch is. although to meet realforce's build quality is a tall order (made in japan)

[Sniping]

If you go topre, wait out for the Cm nova touch. I think the type heaven is $150. So it's as much as a mx brown board. Some swear by them too.

I wouldn't wait 4 months to save $50. You'll end up spending another $100 on a keycap set anyway.

[quickcrx702]

Thanks for the help (and emotional support). I've decided to pull the trigger on the 45g Topre! Now the waiting begins.

If it hasn't been shipped yet ask if you can change the order to a 55g.  The 45g feels like a very fancy rubber dome.  They are nice, but they have to grow on you for many people.  The 55g, on the other hand feels nothing like a rubber dome(even though it's also just very fancy rubber).  I'm pretty sure you will like it from day one.  If not and it's too late, I hope you enjoy the keyboard.  Keep us posted!

I love my 55g 87U. And don't hate me for this, but I also really enjoy my variable silent. I find it very tactile, provided you use a softer typing style. If you're a heavy typist, you won't feel the tactility. I already said this in another post, but I think the reason...for me...is Colemak. A softer typing style fits Colemak because your fingers are resting on or right above the keys you need much of the time. And...I'm older that dirt.

I tend to code on my 55g, simply because there're a lot of shortcut key combinations and code navigation. However, If I am doing a lot of text typing, I'll switch to a lighter switch.

No hating here.  I mash on my keys like a gorilla, which is probably why I can't get past 80WPM, though I don't really practice other than what I type on a daily basis.  Every now and then, probably a couple times per year, I'll go on a typing website to get an idea of my speed.  I don't really work on honing my skills, just getting a benchmark to satisfy my own curiosity.  That's also why I don't really feel the tactility on the 45g, or switches like MX brown.

[atlas3686]

Go Topre, I have Filco (browns) with side printed PBT keys and I still far prefer my Topre boards. Browns do feel scratchy and cheap compared to Topre. Just my opinion but the black on black realforce keys are pretty sexy and at least if you need legends they are there.

[tuxsavvy]

I have both Cherry MX brown (via Cherry ErgoPlus) and Topre 45g via HHKB Pro JP.

If you are keen on colour ranges, Cherry would be the way to go. Topre seems to be much restrictive in this area despite mostly boasting quality keycaps. If you want PBT, I believe you might also want to look at Ducky for instance whom does make PBT keycaps for a few select models. Albeit the colour range for now seems minimal and that they are also using Cherry MX switches.

The one thing definitive about Topre is the feel with bump before a quick drop in the amount of force required before bottoming out. The Cherry keyboard I have here is quite old so I cannot do a decent comparison without counting in what one has said before. Something like Cherry MX switch softens over time but Topre switch hardens over time. Although regardless of whichever way these switches go, the variances I guess are only slightly at that. That and the fact that Topre (at least for HHKB) are rated at a minimum of 30 million keypresses/actuation unlike Cherry MX which are rated at a minimum 50 million keypresses/actuation. This maybe an issue if reliability may seem important to you I guess.

As others have pointed out before, you could wait for Cooler Master for them to have those Novatouch switches available and possibly harvest the sliders from there. In either case you will be voiding any applicable warranty on Realforce keyboard I guess.

If being more ergonomical is a must I would suggest the idea of those Topre Realforce variable weights. They are not particularly well suited for gaming but I think in some ways it might be for long hours of typing.

[oTurtlez]

I always recommend to just jump right into Topre. Most people don't regret it, and those that do can often sell their board back to the community fairly easily for low losses. I love my Topre boards and cannot stand MX Browns, but I also love Ergo Clears. Topre > Ergo Clears > All (Except legit Blue Alps. Such smooth, very click, wow.)

[fuzzybaffy]

I had a Topre all-45g board for over a year, and just a couple of weeks ago, purchased a Filco MJ2 with MX Browns.

It seems you already made up your mind, but I'd just like to put in my 2 cents for other readers...

One of the most often-heard criticisms of MX Brown switches is that they feel "scratchy", but honestly, when I put on a set of PBT's on my MX Browns, they felt MUCH better. They still feel scratchy - that's the nature of the stem, of course - but the PBT keycaps give them a much more solid/consistent feel. Whereas with the ABS, as others have mentioned, the switches feel kind of messy.

That said, IF I PUT ON A SET OF PBT's on the Filco MJ2, they come pretty close to Topre. But if you do buy a set of them (at least dye-sub, which is what I got) for the Filco, they're actually MORE expensive ($150 + $100) than a Topre board ($220 to $250 at EK), so, really... it's hard to say that Topre's are "overpriced" or a "rip-off" compared to other boards. It's apparent that what makes Topre boards so expensive are the PBT dye-subs, and given that a set of dye-sub PBTs for MX switches cost $100, I really have no problem with the price I paid for the Topre board. 

But comparing a Filco MJ2 with PBTs, and a Topre Realforce, in terms of BUILD QUALITY, I have to give the edge to the Realforce. The board is just an absolute beast, and does not flex, while the Filco I can still flex just a bit. And then the keycaps... yes, even though I've put on a set of dye-sub PBTs on the Filco MJ2, those PBTs are NOT the same as the PBTs on Topre Realforces. Now that I've had a chance to buy "other" PBTs (the one's I got for my Filco), I really have to say, the Realforce PBTs are absolutely fantastic. The PBTs on my Filco seem cheap and thin in comparison (yet they go for $100)!

But as for positives to the MX Brown switch over Topre, what I really love about MX Brown switches is that they are much easier to press than Topre switches. Yes, the actuation force might be the same, but I think Ripster (was it?) always made a distinction between "actuation force", and "work". Supposedly, IIRC, that while the actuation force of the switches may be the same, the "work" required to press on them are different, and that may be what I'm feeling now. I'll have to guess that it has something to do with the fact that Topre switch tactility points are solely at the top, whereas with the MX Brown switch, you slide down the switch first, and then feel the tactility as you travel down. I just love how easy it is to press on MX Brown switches, I really do.

Does it mean that I LIKE the MX Brown switches more than Topre switches? Not necessarily. I've, again, owned the Filco for just a couple of weeks, so I can't really make that judgment yet. If there is one thing that I dislike about MX Brown switches is that it's changed my typing form. I don't know how to explain it exactly, but I'm seeing that my hands are figured differently than they are when typing on the Topre board, and I think my Topre form is slightly more comfortable. I may see (this is not a definite) issues with typing on my MX Browns for long periods of time in the future.

So, there you have it. In terms of value, they are pretty neck and neck - maybe a slight edge to Topre because of build quality. In terms of build/switch quality, I give the CLEAR edge to Topre. In terms of subjective "which keyboard do I personally like?", it's a TBD at the moment.

[NateS]

I've read all the input here, as well as all over these forums and the Internet. It's so hard to make decisions sight unseen, but here I am in eastern Europe. I considered literally every option. I think you guys are right, that I would regret if I went with the browns. All the hype and then for me to not find out just wouldn't work. I think the Topre all 45s will do it for me. I'm used to really, really terrible domes after all. I game but not a lot, so I don't think the variable is a good idea(aaaaaa ). I thought long and hard on the 55s, but I am literally at the keyboard 12+ hours/day and worry I would get fatigued.

I'm a bit sad about losing customization, but I got yellow WASD just to see if I like it. I hope the black legends don't bother me. I wonder, why doesn't EK stock the white and gray PBT caps from the white RF? I'd love white modifiers and gray non-A-Z keys, or even just gray WSAD. Give me some options, pretty please!? 

So now I wait. It'll get stopped in customs and I'll pay another 50% I'm sure. I'll post my thoughts when it comes!

[quickcrx702]

The 55g is still going to be lighter than many rubber domes.  A lot of rubber domes are 65g+.  If your current keyboard doesn't hurt your hands, and you are used to typing 12+ hours/day, then you should be fine.  I still think you should go big with the 55g.  Most people that try the 55g love it, even the ones who can't use it all of the time because of fatigue.  The 45g on the other hand, is hit or miss.  That's why there are so many "Thorpe" haters, because they tried the 45g or variable and it felt too much like a fancy rubber dome to them.

[reziak]

both are very nice, personally for typing I prefer Topre and for gaming I use browns.

I do this too! Though since becoming a Topre lover I'm starting to favor reds....I guess all that bottoming out on Topre keys made me start bottoming out with reds, and they feel great to me now O.O

[aref]

I've had the 45- and 55-gram Topre swiches on my Realforce KBs. I prefer the 55-gram. It's a completely different feel from any of Cherry's switches. I had tried keyboards with MX Brown switches--no joy for me and Cherry switches cannot favorably compare with Topre switches (note: I've not tried the MX Clear, but have tried all the other Cherry switches, as I'm sure many here have). Two friends have Realforce variable Topre switches and have grown to dislike non-uniform key feel. The 45-gram Topre is probably closes to the MX Brown, but the feel is different, far better. However, the 55-gram has a very nice feel and, unless you're a slightly firmer touch-typist, will help prevent accidental key strikes. I prefer the 55-gram Topre in the 87U; however, this is a matter of personal preference.

[dante]

I've never felt a scratchy tactile Cherry switch.  It's always the Linear ones that turn you into a DJ.

[Roibhilin]

hhkb fanboys inbound

[Linkbane]

The 'scratchy' thing is very subjective, I personally don't feel it at all on Blue switches, and I have a Brown board and it feels different from my Topre 45g. The Topre definitely has a rubber dome-esque bottoming out feeling, which is cushy and soft. The Brown feels like the tactility is much more purposeful; it's a sharper, more obvious sensation. Also note that with a Topre, it's very difficult to not bottom-out, whereas it's easy enough on a Cherry board.

[dante]

come on DJ!

[Laser]

From the title of the thread, i believe you actually lean toward the topre:

"T(h)orn"

[aref]

I agree with Fuzzybaffy about a difference in how one configures one's hands when using a Filco, CMQFR, Leopold, and the like when compared with a Realforce/Topre keyboard. I find the Realforce to be much more comfortable for typing, I don't game, so I can't comment on gaming on either KB. The other contemporary tenkeyless keyboards require a slightly different position for one's hands. The feel between the two keyboards is noticeable. For me, an 87U feels much more comfortable and more efficient. I'm less likely to make typing errors when using my Realforce. Those other keyboards' layouts, standard as they are in that series, feel too compact for me.

[SonicRevolution]

umm Topre!

[FinancialWar]

How can someone be torn between Topre and MX? That's like saying you can't choose between fake boobs and real ones.

One feel mushy and silicon, one feel tactile and responsive.

[Polymer]

You obviously have never felt real and fake ones before...

Topre is far from mushy...it is one of the things that makes it different from a normal rubber dome.  Because of the plunger+dome design, the bottom out of a Topre is solid but organic...The keypresses are incredibly stable (more so than Cherry mx) and incredibly smooth.  It also feels far more responsive than normal rubber domes because it doesn't require you to bottom for actuation.

I can see where your ignorance comes from though..people that haven't given it more than a few days won't really see the difference...When I first tried Topre I didn't think they were that different from normal rubber dome keyboards..they felt a little better but still no big deal.  It is only after using it for a bit more that I started to see the differences and how much more I liked using it over my Cherry boards...

[FinancialWar]

please... ever heard of "models and bottles"?

[C5Allroad]

I was told that topre was much, much smoother.... Browns, sure they feel nice, but they are very hard to describe how the scratch feels... Imagine half a grain of rice on reds.... That's the best way I can describe them... As for topre I'm looking to buy a board also...

[pbtforever]

Topre.  PBT keys are great!

[Wildcard]

Topre.  PBT keys are great!

Just remember, not all Topre boards have PBT (TypeHeaven has ABS as an example). But yes PBT keys are great

[Emospence]

Topre!

(mx brown feel scratchy and cheap compared to topre)

+1

[Oobly]

Topre.  PBT keys are great!

MX Browns. THICK PBT keycaps are better!

[pbtforever]

hhkb fanboys inbound

Reporting in!

[yasuo]

How can someone be torn between Topre and MX? That's like saying you can't choose between fake boobs and real ones.

One feel mushy and silicon, one feel tactile and responsive.

different plastic v rubber i think rubber better than plastic but matias maybe diffrent again

[atlas3686]

Topre!

(mx brown feel scratchy and cheap compared to topre)

+1

+1

[daerid]

Topre. 55g to be exact.

[RESPRiT]

My personal favorite Cherry switch are browns, but when I tried (and later bought) Topre, it kind of blew browns out of the water. I think that if you like browns, then you'll really like Topre. The only thing Topre doesn't really perform greatly in is gaming, but besides that I see them as a direct upgrade from browns.

[NateS]

I got my all 45g Topre. As expect, the dark keys bothered me and still bother me a bit after ~2 weeks. I ordered red keys from taobao, so that should help. The keys themselves feel great! They are easier to press than my old rubber domes, but I only know that because sometimes I rest my fingers on the keys and get a repeating character. A fellow forum member sent me some very thin rubber rings and I installed them all. While I had it open I also lubed all the keys with EK's Mech Lube 2. It's quite a bit quieter now, and it was pretty quiet to being with. I'm still adjusting to the non-curved layout of my old board, but with the straight layout it's much easier to predict where keys are after lifting and replacing my hands. My WPM has dropped a bit as a result ~75 from ~85, but I expect it will improve with time.

[irendulic]

A fellow Croatian!

I was in a similar dilemma, ended up going for browns for three reasons:
1. Topres are about double the price
2. Expensive used keyboards don't sell well in Croatia (HHKB pro2 sold for 90$ in December, guy paid 400+$ for it).
3. I couldn't try out Topre before purchasing.

There's also the keycaps issue, but that isn't as important for me.
And I know you'll probably pay even more for Topre one, with shipping costs and customs. I am lucky to get it directly here in the US, Leopold fc660m is on it's way

[RESPRiT]

Does Topre give you a very deliberate feeling when you type? I think that's what sold it for me as a switch. Every key press feels very distinct and certain, while still smooth and responsive.

[Schwarz]

Mx brown (I own both)

Topre sounds nice but feels like refined rubberdome, not that exciting to type on. Garbage for gaming.

Edit: PBT caps on both, just to be fair

[riotonthebay]

I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars trying to create the perfect MX switch for me. You can see how that turned out.

Buy Topre, save yourself money.

[eth0s]

I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars trying to create the perfect MX switch for me. You can see how that turned out.

Buy Topre, save yourself money.

+1 to this ^.   Topre is the best choice for the OP.