Why does PBT cost so much more than ABS?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Does anybody know why it costs so much more to use PBT in the making of Keycaps over ABS for the same technique in terms of keycap construction / label creation?

[mapple]

it's different material which costs more..... only that

[riotonthebay]

Once you have the infrastructure in place, I don't actually believe the materials costs are that different. I think it has to do with the overall quality of your product.

For instance, GMK makes exceptional thick ABS keycaps, and they're quite expensive. For the same thickness, Imsto thick PBT is cheaper.

Similarly, you can get thin keycool PBT from Banggood for like 20 bucks, but no one is writing home about them.

So basically, I don't think there's such a huge cost discrepancy between keycaps made from the two materials.

[Zeal]

As rio said, material costs barely affect manufacturing prices when made in large amounts. It's just that there are less OEMs that provide (thick) PBT keycaps. And with the up-rise of "gamers" purchasing mechanical keyboards, there's no reason for manufacturers to provide higher quality (and non-backlit compatible) keycaps for their flashy LED gaming keyboards. 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

As rio said, material costs barely affect manufacturing prices when made in large amounts. It's just that there are less OEMs that provide (thick) PBT keycaps. And with the up-rise of "gamers" purchasing mechanical keyboards, there's no reason for manufacturers to provide higher quality (and non-backlit compatible) keycaps for their flashy LED gaming keyboards. 

We need to increase our numbers

Viva quality Thick PBT Keycap lovers

Viva quality

[mapple]

+1 as for thick pbt lover:), but what i had in mind was that pbt is more expensive maybe it's a penny in huge order but still it's more expensive. Additionally pbt requires more "treatment" i supose but not sure we need someone who is working in factory one of this.

[Findecanor]

PBT has a higher melting point and it cools and warps differently than ABS.
I believe that the moulding cycle for PBT is a bit more involved and slower than for ABS thus giving you fewer casts per unit of time. More energy is needed for PBT, and it might require a more expensive injection-moulding machine.

[RESPRiT]

Are ABS really not that much cheaper than PBT material wise? Surely ABS is at least a decent amount cheaper.

[CPTBadAss]

Are ABS really not that much cheaper than PBT material wise? Surely ABS is at least a decent amount cheaper.

This page from UL Ides (A material specification database), shows the pricing per pound for ABS and PBT. It's a range so assume that we're using the cheapest ABS and PBT. And the plastic is probably regrind, repro (regrind of recycled plastics), or scrap (recycled plastics). But we can assume it's virgin just for giggles.

Does anybody know why it costs so much more to use PBT in the making of Keycaps over ABS for the same technique in terms of keycap construction / label creation?

Assuming that we have minimal shrinkage, ABS shrinks at half the rate of PBT. That means that less ABS is used per keycap versus PBT. PBT shrinks more so you need to add more PBT to the mold to compensate. Also you can see it requires more tonnage of force to injection mold PBT vs ABS, which means better machinery and more power; which adds to the cost.

Now if we assume that the housing tolerances are the same for the stem, the tolerances are fairly tight. It's +/- .002 inches. For comparison, that's about  the thickness of a sheet of paper. Whenever you're dealing with tight tolerances, your cost goes up, period. Check out the "shrinkage and tolerances" paragraph on sheet 5 of this Sabic Plastics guide on injection molding.

[pbtforever]

PBT forever!

[1pq]

 )

Welcome to geekhack, buddy. Did you create that name just for this thread?

[pbtforever]

Thanks.  Just like PBT keys.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Are ABS really not that much cheaper than PBT material wise? Surely ABS is at least a decent amount cheaper.

This page from UL Ides (A material specification database), shows the pricing per pound for ABS and PBT. It's a range so assume that we're using the cheapest ABS and PBT. And the plastic is probably regrind, repro (regrind of recycled plastics), or scrap (recycled plastics). But we can assume it's virgin just for giggles.

Does anybody know why it costs so much more to use PBT in the making of Keycaps over ABS for the same technique in terms of keycap construction / label creation?

Assuming that we have minimal shrinkage, ABS shrinks at half the rate of PBT. That means that less ABS is used per keycap versus PBT. PBT shrinks more so you need to add more PBT to the mold to compensate. Also you can see it requires more tonnage of force to injection mold PBT vs ABS, which means better machinery and more power; which adds to the cost.

Now if we assume that the housing tolerances are the same for the stem, the tolerances are fairly tight. It's +/- .002 inches. For comparison, that's about  the thickness of a sheet of paper. Whenever you're dealing with tight tolerances, your cost goes up, period. Check out the "shrinkage and tolerances" paragraph on sheet 5 of this Sabic Plastics guide on injection molding.

From what I can tell from the UL price guide when comparing ABS vs PBT, even using the cheapest source of plastic (Regrind / Scrap), the price difference is quite drastic per unit

Low End
ABS Regrind / Scrap = 0.04 $ / 0.05$
PBT Regrind / Scrap = 0.18$ / 0.15$

That's anywhere between 3x - 4.5x the base material cost per lb

Then you add in the fact that you need more PBT material for the same mold

Then you need more energy / higher quality machines to mold PBT

I can see why the costs skyrocket in comparing ABS to PBT now

[tricheboars]

i care more about cap profile than i care about plastic type these days. SA and DSA all the way.

also i prefer POM over ABS and PBT.

[RESPRiT]

Are ABS really not that much cheaper than PBT material wise? Surely ABS is at least a decent amount cheaper.

This page from UL Ides (A material specification database), shows the pricing per pound for ABS and PBT. It's a range so assume that we're using the cheapest ABS and PBT. And the plastic is probably regrind, repro (regrind of recycled plastics), or scrap (recycled plastics). But we can assume it's virgin just for giggles.

Does anybody know why it costs so much more to use PBT in the making of Keycaps over ABS for the same technique in terms of keycap construction / label creation?

Assuming that we have minimal shrinkage, ABS shrinks at half the rate of PBT. That means that less ABS is used per keycap versus PBT. PBT shrinks more so you need to add more PBT to the mold to compensate. Also you can see it requires more tonnage of force to injection mold PBT vs ABS, which means better machinery and more power; which adds to the cost.

Now if we assume that the housing tolerances are the same for the stem, the tolerances are fairly tight. It's +/- .002 inches. For comparison, that's about  the thickness of a sheet of paper. Whenever you're dealing with tight tolerances, your cost goes up, period. Check out the "shrinkage and tolerances" paragraph on sheet 5 of this Sabic Plastics guide on injection molding.

From what I can tell from the UL price guide when comparing ABS vs PBT, even using the cheapest source of plastic (Regrind / Scrap), the price difference is quite drastic per unit

Low End
ABS Regrind / Scrap = 0.04 $ / 0.05$
PBT Regrind / Scrap = 0.18$ / 0.15$

That's anywhere between 3x - 4.5x the base material cost per lb

Then you add in the fact that you need more PBT material for the same mold

Then you need more energy / higher quality machines to mold PBT

I can see why the costs skyrocket in comparing ABS to PBT now

Ah, neat little statistic. I'll keep this in mind.

[riotonthebay]

I'm confused. I agree that PBT is more expensive, but where are these skyrocketing prices, and since when did production costs correlate linearly with retail value?

[CPTBadAss]

Where are these skyrocketing prices?

I linked to a UL IDES price guide from 2013 in my previous post.

Since when did production costs correlate linearly with retail value?

You're right that production cost isn't the only factor and that it's not linear. It was the part of the pricing I understand the best and thought I'd share my thoughts about.

[riotonthebay]

Sorry CPT, I'm totally with you on your analysis. I'm just confused by so many people talking about skyrocketing PBT keycaps costs. They're really not all that different from ABS.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Sorry CPT, I'm totally with you on your analysis. I'm just confused by so many people talking about skyrocketing PBT keycaps costs. They're really not all that different from ABS.

PBT is more expensive than ABS, but I think the skyrocketing costs is more of an excuse for sellers to justify a more expensive price tag to get better profit margins.

[dorkvader]

Sorry CPT, I'm totally with you on your analysis. I'm just confused by so many people talking about skyrocketing PBT keycaps costs. They're really not all that different from ABS.

PBT is more expensive than ABS, but I think the skyrocketing costs is more of an excuse for sellers to justify a more expensive price tag to get better profit margins.

Yes. I see a lot of supply/demand economics as a factor here.

Another thing that influences this sort of thing (beyond mere supply and demand) is that there are more ABS places for cherry MX keycaps than there are PBT, so the ABS ones have a much better distribution. This will make them cheaper as well (and may well affect the current higher prices)

About PBT pricing: A full set of new PBT keycaps is like $20 or $25 from unicomp. They have had machines in place and a system that works, as well as some distribution (fentek, etc.) so their prices are much lower than (say) a new factory for cherryMX PBT that is trying to recoup its tooling cost.

[Linkbane]

It really doesn't cost much more at all. If you take a look at Banggood, for instance, they offer medium-thick PBT sets for under $20, including shipping. That's something that most companies I've seen can't even offer for ABS caps. It is definitely, as the others say, about lack of demand.

[fuzzybaffy]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

[Linkbane]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

Do you have examples of how Laser Etched / Engraved / Dye Subed / Double Shot wears out over time?

[Melvang]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

Do you have examples of how Laser Etched / Engraved / Dye Subed / Double Shot wears out over time?

Out of those 4 I would think the order from least to most durable would be laser etched / dye subed / engraved / doubleshot.

[Grr8]

I'm confused. I agree that PBT is more expensive, but where are these skyrocketing prices, and since when did production costs correlate linearly with retail value?

What sets are you looking at?

What I found amazing was when looking for a "Classic Beige" style PBT keycap set, I could buy a TKL set from Originative for $130:

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/keysets/products/bsp-classic-beige

Or I could buy a whole keyboard with thick PBT keycaps for $135 (when it was in stock):

http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=470

And it had 108 keys! And I get a spare, quality keyboard.

So, I think that most of the price difference for PBT caps is a premium because the sellers know they can get it.

[Linkbane]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

Do you have examples of how Laser Etched / Engraved / Dye Subed / Double Shot wears out over time?

Out of those 4 I would think the order from least to most durable would be laser etched / dye subed / engraved / doubleshot.

Definitely not. Etched and engraved take longer than doubleshot to wear; if you've seen pictures of 1980s keyboards with doubleshots, they have worn through the surface (thinner than etching depth and always ABS in those cases) and are completely illegible. Doubleshot out of them would be the least durable, but the nicest looking.

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

Do you have examples of how Laser Etched / Engraved / Dye Subed / Double Shot wears out over time?

Out of those 4 I would think the order from least to most durable would be laser etched / dye subed / engraved / doubleshot.

Definitely not. Etched and engraved take longer than doubleshot to wear; if you've seen pictures of 1980s keyboards with doubleshots, they have worn through the surface (thinner than etching depth and always ABS in those cases) and are completely illegible. Doubleshot out of them would be the least durable, but the nicest looking.

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

So IYO, durability of printing methods should be Dye Sublimation / Laser Etching / Engraving / Double Shot?

[Melvang]

Yea... I think people are mistakenly confusing "dye-sub" with "PBTs" when thinking of expense, since PBT caps are so often dye-sub. It's the dye-subbing that makes the PBTs expensive, considering that laser-etched or engraved PBTs go for 30-40$ at most.

I have no idea if the dye-subbing process actually is that much more expensive, and if it justifies the retail prices of PBT dye-sub caps, but that is definitely what is making the caps cost more for consumers, not the PBT material itself.

Blank keycap users like myself have no such reservations. 
Who cares about printing on keycaps when no printing will *never* fade when in 20-30 years, doubleshots will wear through in a horrific fashion? Who even wastes time looking at the keyboard, for that matter? Printing is 100% for looks and if you are a competent keyboard user you ought not be looking at most of the keys besides maybe the numbers.

Do you have examples of how Laser Etched / Engraved / Dye Subed / Double Shot wears out over time?

Out of those 4 I would think the order from least to most durable would be laser etched / dye subed / engraved / doubleshot.

Definitely not. Etched and engraved take longer than doubleshot to wear; if you've seen pictures of 1980s keyboards with doubleshots, they have worn through the surface (thinner than etching depth and always ABS in those cases) and are completely illegible. Doubleshot out of them would be the least durable, but the nicest looking.

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

I fail to see any logic in your statement here are my reasons for my order.

Laser etched - A laser is used to simply discolor the plastic to form the legend so this would produce the legend that protrudes the shallowest into the key.

Dye Subbed - Is a process that applies a dye in a method similar to silk screening in addition to heat to allow the dye to set into the plastic a bit.  However dye subbed is to my knowledge mostly limited to PBT although not sure on POM.  The reason I don't believe it is popular with ABS caps is because of the physical properties of ABS used for keycaps in that it can't take enough heat without disfiguring to allow the dye to set into the plastic.

Laser Engraved - A laser is used to essentially mill out the legend into the surface of the cap so you would have to wear through the entire top of the cap until you reached the bottom of the legend.  My guess would be this is around .010" depth though I could be way off as I have never measured the depth of the legend on an engraved cap.

And double shot lasting the longest because the legend is actually a separate piece of plastic a different color that continues all the way through from the top of the cap to the bottom of the top face of the cap.   This process is *almost* exclusive to ABS plastic.  The reason is due to much different physical properties of the two plastics.  I am not sure on the thermal expansion rates of the two but I do know that PBT needs to be heated to a much higher temp to melt to a pourable viscosity than ABS.  As a result you get a lot more shrinkage from pour to cool that does funny stuff when you start trying to do a double shot.  Although Vortex is doing it right now and I believe there is one company (can't remember the name off hand right now) that is doing backlit friendly PBT double shots.

A lot of the reason that you are seeing IBM caps still in good shape after this much time is in my opinion mostly due to the fact that the vintage IBM caps are PBT and not ABS which as we know is a much harder and longer wearing plastic.

[dorkvader]

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

I have more than one IBM keyboard with noticeable wear on the keycaps: some even to the point the legend is faded almost through.

The wear life of a keycap is more to do with the material than the printing process, since most high reliability printing processes are based on materials.

For example, an infilled keycap may last quite a while if its infilled with a material that is hard or corrosion resistant. Etched keycaps can last as long as doubleshots (this is especially true for blank doubleshot keys taht are then etched with the legend: they will last the same as a "normal" doubleshot.

Please note: I am not able to find any examples for keycaps, but dye sublimation is a valid process with a long history of use on ceramics. This legend technique applied to (say) Al2O3 would last much longer than any of these polymers.

Cap material and legending process: you have to take both of these into consideration when evaluating the wear life of a keycap.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

I have more than one IBM keyboard with noticeable wear on the keycaps: some even to the point the legend is faded almost through.

The wear life of a keycap is more to do with the material than the printing process, since most high reliability printing processes are based on materials.

For example, an infilled keycap may last quite a while if its infilled with a material that is hard or corrosion resistant. Etched keycaps can last as long as doubleshots (this is especially true for blank doubleshot keys taht are then etched with the legend: they will last the same as a "normal" doubleshot.

Please note: I am not able to find any examples for keycaps, but dye sublimation is a valid process with a long history of use on ceramics. This legend technique applied to (say) Al2O3 would last much longer than any of these polymers.

Cap material and legending process: you have to take both of these into consideration when evaluating the wear life of a keycap.

So if you were to rank Cap Material & Legending Process in terms of
1) Durability from best to worst
2) Print Quality from best to worst

What would it be?

[exitfire401]

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

I have more than one IBM keyboard with noticeable wear on the keycaps: some even to the point the legend is faded almost through.

The wear life of a keycap is more to do with the material than the printing process, since most high reliability printing processes are based on materials.

For example, an infilled keycap may last quite a while if its infilled with a material that is hard or corrosion resistant. Etched keycaps can last as long as doubleshots (this is especially true for blank doubleshot keys taht are then etched with the legend: they will last the same as a "normal" doubleshot.

Please note: I am not able to find any examples for keycaps, but dye sublimation is a valid process with a long history of use on ceramics. This legend technique applied to (say) Al2O3 would last much longer than any of these polymers.

Cap material and legending process: you have to take both of these into consideration when evaluating the wear life of a keycap.

So if you were to rank Cap Material & Legending Process in terms of
1) Durability from best to worst
2) Print Quality from best to worst

What would it be?

1) best->worst: doubleshot, laser-etched, infilled, pad printed
2) best->worst: Laser-etched, infilled, doubleshot, pad printed.

No matter what, doubleshot will be my first choice. The only problem is, every now and then you'll have a batch problem (which is evident in the Vortex thick PBT sets) but I highly prefer the durability of doubleshot to that of any other process.

[Linkbane]

Dye sublimation is the most long lasting. On no IBM keyboards do you see any fading despite some being over 30 years old. People are really fooled by DS, but it's obviously the least durable of these processes and really inefficient because it requires so much more work and can wear through.

I have more than one IBM keyboard with noticeable wear on the keycaps: some even to the point the legend is faded almost through.

The wear life of a keycap is more to do with the material than the printing process, since most high reliability printing processes are based on materials.

For example, an infilled keycap may last quite a while if its infilled with a material that is hard or corrosion resistant. Etched keycaps can last as long as doubleshots (this is especially true for blank doubleshot keys taht are then etched with the legend: they will last the same as a "normal" doubleshot.

Please note: I am not able to find any examples for keycaps, but dye sublimation is a valid process with a long history of use on ceramics. This legend technique applied to (say) Al2O3 would last much longer than any of these polymers.

Cap material and legending process: you have to take both of these into consideration when evaluating the wear life of a keycap.

So if you were to rank Cap Material & Legending Process in terms of
1) Durability from best to worst
2) Print Quality from best to worst

What would it be?

1) best->worst: doubleshot, laser-etched, infilled, pad printed
2) best->worst: Laser-etched, infilled, doubleshot, pad printed.

No matter what, doubleshot will be my first choice. The only problem is, every now and then you'll have a batch problem (which is evident in the Vortex thick PBT sets) but I highly prefer the durability of doubleshot to that of any other process.

You have a problem there. Did you really say that the printing on laser-etched, which is completely black and gives a texture, is the best? Pad printing's sharpness is certainly higher than infill or etched, it just doesn't last longer, and DS is renowned for its sharpness.

[dorkvader]

You have a problem there. Did you really say that the printing on laser-etched, which is completely black and gives a texture, is the best? Pad printing's sharpness is certainly higher than infill or etched, it just doesn't last longer, and DS is renowned for its sharpness.

Of course this has not always been the case. Doubleshooting plastic keycaps has been around for quite some time. I have many sets of doubleshot keycaps from the 1970's and 1980's that are not very clear at all. Many (but not all) modern doubleshot keycaps look very nice, but there will be imperfections in any manufacturing process.

I've also seen some interesting issues with the lasering that fujitsu has one. Every once in a while, they'll show visible laser marks across. I guess there was some vibration or something. This happened with a frequency less than 1% and was not hurtful at all (In fact I doubt the recipient of said keyboard even noticed). That said, their lasering has had excellent clarity otherwise.

The only reason doubleshot keycaps look so good now is that they've had so many decades to perfect the process, as opposed to other methods, which have only been around for a decade or two.

on a related note, I was just taking pictures of blurry doubleshots the other day. Maybe I'll post 'em now. This would add to the well-known issues doubleshots have had in the past. See for example the red-alert issues with red showing through white.

[Linkbane]

You have a problem there. Did you really say that the printing on laser-etched, which is completely black and gives a texture, is the best? Pad printing's sharpness is certainly higher than infill or etched, it just doesn't last longer, and DS is renowned for its sharpness.

Of course this has not always been the case. Doubleshooting plastic keycaps has been around for quite some time. I have many sets of doubleshot keycaps from the 1970's and 1980's that are not very clear at all. Many (but not all) modern doubleshot keycaps look very nice, but there will be imperfections in any manufacturing process.

I've also seen some interesting issues with the lasering that fujitsu has one. Every once in a while, they'll show visible laser marks across. I guess there was some vibration or something. This happened with a frequency less than 1% and was not hurtful at all (In fact I doubt the recipient of said keyboard even noticed). That said, their lasering has had excellent clarity otherwise.

The only reason doubleshot keycaps look so good now is that they've had so many decades to perfect the process, as opposed to other methods, which have only been around for a decade or two.

on a related note, I was just taking pictures of blurry doubleshots the other day. Maybe I'll post 'em now. This would add to the well-known issues doubleshots have had in the past. See for example the red-alert issues with red showing through white.

Hey dorkvader, thanks for the informative post. Also, could I ask you if you have any experience with double shots that have faded through entirely and show the inside shot? I thought I saw one in December or so, looked pretty horrific.